Change my mind about IG Divine.

Munsia

So I've got a topic up for debate. It's a theory I've been holding onto for a very long time and is much the reason for derision towards Divine from Munsia in an IG manner. Clear things up for me as a group, or maybe I will change your perspective a little. 

I've not read the histories, I cannot get through my own american history classes, let alone this games lengthy lore. I don't hate the lore, don't get me wrong. It's cool when I hear people talk about it, but I cannot learn it. 

So to the theory: 

Before the Wars, before the mayhem, before US, what were the Divine? From what I hear, they had lovers, they had spats, they had good times. They had councils, they had fighters, they had creators. What makes them any different from us then on their own plane of existence? It's spoken as if there were hundreds upon thousands of these Divine that all died in the wars against the Soulless, and other unsavory manners. Some of them died and were splintered creating lesser races, creating much of what we have now. Save for Estarra who brought the Humans with Her.

Discuss! What makes them different other than the fact they are more powerful than us? I know from a Mechanic point of view you have to wonder, but from an actual outside perspective into the 'World' of the game, is there? It's like Supernatural Giants next to normal sized humans. Or a Demigod to a newbie novice. What's the real difference? Is there one? Pick a side, keep it clean, and change my mind. Maybe I'll learn something, or maybe you'll think differently!

Turnus

You've pretty much got it. According to the lore mortals are just pieces of the Gods basically. So the fact that they're basically like mortals makes sense.  The big difference is mortals get reincarnated/etc while the Gods can't (But are probably harder to kill to begin with), and they're obviously super powered compared to mortals.

Munsia

Turnus said:

You've pretty much got it. According to the lore mortals are just pieces of the Gods basically. So the fact that they're basically like mortals makes sense.  The big difference is mortals get reincarnated/etc while the Gods can't (But are probably harder to kill to begin with), and they're obviously super powered compared to mortals.

So this is akin to calling scientists 'witches and warlocks' in the dark ages? 

Daraius

This is actually pretty close to how Daraius thinks about gods, and part of the reason he tries not to deal with them much. Based on interactions with Elostian and Lyreth, he just views them as very powerful beings who are just as petty and unstable as mortals. And, crucially, not part of the Collective. I play him as close to agnostic you can get in a world where gods walk among mortals.

But Daraius is never derisive!

Munsia

I'm actually surprised to hear I'm not alone in this. 

I've rarely ever 'worshipped' a god for being superior, most of my partnerships with Divine have been well...partnerships. Hajamin was a Mentor to me. Kalikai was a means to an end, as well as Raezon. Both understood I required power for my loyalty, and accepted me into their Order's with that as the deal. 

Rivius

Lusternia's Gods are very much like Greek gods in the sense that they're extremely imperfect and very 'mortal'. 

Ultimately, history has proven that mortals are capable of very great things. They were the ones who ended up with the final solution to the soulless, and even now play major roles in large-scale events. Their potential and power is undeniable.

So IG, I think it's completely justified to be wary of gods. Perhaps approach with caution? Rivius for example, treats gods with respect where he sees it appropriate, and for those he doesn't respect, he avoids like the plague. If a god told him to do something that would harm Serenwilde, he'd cut ties with them in a heartbeat regardless of the consequences. The only god he ever followed was Hoaracle, and it was purely because he felt the order's ideals and life lessons were a step closer to understanding the cruel, broken world of lusternia.

Maligorn

I'm surprised that you haven't gathered that Marcella tends to think of the Gods in a similar fashion (ergo, not superior morally (or even intellectually or physically)). Though it may be her extreme fangirlism for Vernal Gods (particularly Urlach). I'm sure she could explain it better than I could, though.

For Maligorn personally, he has to wonder why the current Elder Gods we have now haven't sharded themselves. What's keeping them here? There's obviously no big ritual (it seems to be just an instinctual thing). Many of their friends are dead. They suffer permanent-death (see: Eventru just died yo)

Moreover, it'd give us a chance to see little Isunelings running around (I guess they'd just be trill, though).

Maligorn

Addendum: If Meridian saw his continued existence as a threat to the mortal races towards the end of the book and thusly tried to keep himself secluded, why don't any of the other Elder Gods share this same trepidation? He ended up sharding, you know.
:-/

Saran

Yeah, I've tried IC but the only gods that I've ever really liked were Elcyrion and Elostian. This wasn't because of their being gods but with the interactions that were closer to that with a mentor. I haven't really interacted with Hoaracle much but I would expect it would be similar.

In that sense the title of "God" isn't really appropriate I suppose. They're closer to a precursor race, perhaps like the first civilisation in assassins creed, the precursors in Jak and Daxter, or even the Ancients in Star Gate (except ours started off ascended and interfere more). The shrines, the offerings, the religious overtones... they don't really make sense to me. From Serenwilde I would expect religious focus on nature but the gods here don't have such aspects as there isn't really a god who is responsible for the seasons, the weather, or simply nature. There might be gods that have taken a significant interest in these topics but they would and do continue to exist without them.

Things like essence and shrines are a bit weird, the gods have gone from a society where effectively they are ordinary members, some might excel in certain subjects but suddenly there are beings to serve them and now they need sacrifices made in their name. Again, really old race, very powerful, but ultimately not something to really worship.

Daraius

All the infidels are coming out of the woodwork.

Maligorn

I just got baptised into Isune's Order, too. I'm a terrible person.

EDIT: Still gonna ask why She won't shard at some point along IC development.

Munsia

On the Greek subject, I'm pretty sure half of Lusternia is based around greek. From the fates, to the Admin, to the 'Demigod' reference, and even as you point out, how their Pantheon lived. 

Saran

Rivius said:

Lusternia's Gods are very much like Greek gods in the sense that they're extremely imperfect and very 'mortal'. 

Ultimately, history has proven that mortals are capable of very great things. They were the ones who ended up with the final solution to the soulless, and even now play major roles in large-scale events. Their potential and power is undeniable.

So IG, I think it's completely justified to be wary of gods. Perhaps approach with caution? Rivius for example, treats gods with respect where he sees it appropriate, and for those he doesn't respect, he avoids like the plague. If a god told him to do something that would harm Serenwilde, he'd cut ties with them in a heartbeat regardless of the consequences. The only god he ever followed was Hoaracle, and it was purely because he felt the order's ideals and life lessons were a step closer to understanding the cruel, broken world of lusternia.

Have to really disagree with the comparison to Greek Gods, while yes the aspects of them that are imperfect are fair, these comparisons also tend to forget the ties those gods had to their domains. Poseidon is god of the sea, he creates new islands and calms the seas, people drowned horses in his name to ensure safe voyages. 

The elders mainly have interests rather than control of aspects of nature(material and not), and from memory I think Elostian's temple had statues or carvings of hundreds of elder gods. I suppose the best example is the Warriors, other circles might not have had as many members, but the Warriors seem like they would quickly get to the point that any differences would be pretty superficial. From the looks of the list there's something like eighty-five elder gods, plus Iosai, Ieptix, and possibly two more traitors, bringing that up to eighty-nine (not including fusions). Xyl is one of the greatest minds of the Elders, but then you have like... three thinkers who were apparently helping with the elixir. 

I suppose the point here is that the Elder's society seems much bigger than what we actually see, and what we see is the best of them. We don't see the lab tech whose only claim to fame was helping Xyl with his experiments, and I think that bigger picture moves them away from the "Greek God" comparison.

Munsia

I think you're diving further into the Greek God aspect than he was.

Saran

Munsia said:

I think you're diving further into the Greek God aspect than he was.

True, but I feel that the aspect that people often dive into is the aspect that makes them mortal, not the one that makes them gods.

Saran

I'm not saying that the precursor race style that I see here is a negative, it makes them different and unique within the iron realms. But I would say that it'd be better if it were more fully embraced. 

Munsia

Embraced by the story or?

Enyalida

The gods of Lusternia are basically Olympian, yes. They are not strange and unknowable alien beings, nor are they fundamental forces of creation given form, they are the next logical step in the progression from npc to player, through titan and demigod or ascendant. Like us, they have their squabbles and love affairs, their fields of study and blankspots. They are like mortals, just... bigger. They have more strength, their knowledge in their field runs deeper, their squabbles have more force and consume their being. 

The religion/faith thing always seemed misguided to me, too. A good portion of the gods tend to subvert the problem by guiding their followers to faith in an ideal espoused by the divine, instead of the god/goddess/god(ess) themselves. 

EDIT: If you wanted to really push the faith angle, how about a 'church of Yudhe'? I've always wanted to start such a thing, but never had the gumption to go ahead and do it.

Saran

Story, mechanics, etc. For example, shrines seem mainly used as focuses for the power of the elders and their orders. Altering the presentation of them could enhance this, for example Xyl might have had some arcane apparatus and shrine powers might just be techniques for manipulating them that he taught a collective of mortals. Blessings from someone like Agnomenon might be temporary devices that you construct. Of course, some are more mystically themed, so Lisaera might have an altar which is used to invoke certain powers of nature. The theme being that they're teaching mortals how to call on the powers that they have uncovered. Mostly, that could be achieved with reskinning which also allows for elders who demand worship and adoration to still be an option.

My mind inserted here, that "omg, Elostian could have taught people basic Ae words to invoke powers"

Munsia

Daraius said:

But Daraius is never derisive!

Ah, just noticed this. My derision is not towards the Divine for being Divine, but it is the demand for respect due to being a God. Which is part of the problem here. 

As my argument points out, I find them no different than you or me, except they have superior powers. Such as I could never respect Isune (as cool as the person may be) because I cannot support a pacifist or someone who is peaceful. Munsia's respect comes to those who prove it to her. We find this in any society she's in as well. I don't tolerate people who gain position by default because they didn't earn it, but if they do something during that position they can earn the respect. The same can be applied to the Divine. The existence of being a Divine does not denote I respect their being. That's essentially the problem. They are just another person to me, and we can help each other out, or they can be prats and demand I kowtow. 

In all honesty this is a major problem people have with me, I feel. I do not show respect due to their positions, but to be fair people should welcome it more. I look past your positions, I look past your 'honors', and I look at the real you. Who you are as a person, and what you have to offer. 

Furthering the above posts. We follow Divine's because of 'Ideals' I hear. If we aren't joining the Divine because we are power hungry, and we are joining them due to a set of ideals, what's to stop a Demigod or a VA/TA from just opening up an order instead of a cult? Or an ordinary person? From an RP point of view what exactly ARE Order's if nothing more than cults?

Enyalida

Nothing. We've argued for cults independent from orders for a variety of reasons (the most pressing being that cults represented a huge personal investment that could be wiped out by a god going inactive), but were told no so as to not take away from god rp.

Munsia

I'm not interested in the mechanic investments in this topic!

Zouviqil

Here's the way I see it and understand it, though it's been touched on briefly. Gonna speak on the lore, feel free to smack me for getting it wrong if I do.

1. The Void existed (not light, dark, not full, empty, just NOTHING)
2. A spark of consciousness comes to the Void, called Yudhe
3. Yudhe is alone in the void and feels lonely (teers)
4. Yudhe creates a daughter made of part of his consciousness to try rid self of loneliness named Magnora
5. Magnora is vast yet empty, consumed things
6. Yudhe wasn't happy with just Magnora, so he split himself again to create Dynara
7. Dynara was a creator
8. Dynara's first creations were the Soulless (without a soul/spirit) which she gave to Magnora to get rid of (SPOILER ALERT: Magnora didn't)
9. Yudhe created a son that was a reflection of himself, containing Yudhe's spirit
10. Yudhe's son created with Dynara the Gods through their own shards of consciousness

Skip down a ways, you have the Gods that splinter and make up the races of Lusternia.

So, to break it down, everything is really just a fraction of the consciousness of Yudhe. Some things are more-Yudhe while others are less-Yudhe, and feature different parts of Yudhe, but still, they are Yudhe. The Soulless are part of Yudhe. The Gods are part of Yudhe. The races are part of Yudhe. EVERYTHING is.

Zouvi is painfully aware of this, and thus, she has trouble at times understanding why animosity exists between the different peoples because to her it just seems terribly petty. On the flip side, a quote in one of the Elder Gods books, the Book of Clangorum, has had her place an immense importance on the forests. This quote is thus, by Aslarn: As some may know, the forests be anchors for much of the First World's lifeforce.

To Zouvi, even the fighting between the Gods is terribly petty. She feels like, at times, the whole of Lusternia has forgotten that they are all one in the same, and that they can preoccupy themselves with war is plain stupid. She really admires the qualities of some of the Gods, and recognizes many of them are more Yudhe-potent than she is, and would not mind coming to a deity who recognizes she recognizes this and that there's a mutual respect present as a result, but she has yet to find any divine but one like this... who, unfortunately, she is not allowed to worship in her current home.

Zouviqil also is of the belief that it may be possible to bring back Yudhe (or the son thereof) by killing and capturing all the souls of humans into a single collective and forcing them to rebond (essentially reversing the splintering process), but good luck getting her to admit that one.

Lerad

Lerad isn't very religious partly because he's not had the chance of interacting with a divine (Viravain sorta dived out of sight not long after Lerad joined her order). But as a player, the way I was intending to RP Lerad's relationship would be one of respect out of her power. This is generally the way I RP Lerad when there's a divine, any divine, involved. Obviously, I don't interact much with other divine, but even outside Glom's pantheon, whenever Lerad does get the opportunity to get near a divine, he always maintains a certain level of respect just for the fact that they command vast powers beyond his own.

The reason I do this as a player is because it makes sense for me - there's no reason to be respectful of other beings in a world where you can break people's spines, call down divine pillars of light and summon chasms to break the earth unless they are more powerful than you are. Simply because of the high fantasy premise and flavour of the abilities that form the backbone of the Lusternian system, being religious is a matter of serving a more powerful master.

On the other hand, if Lusternian gods WERE physical manifestations of the material world, like a God of Fire, or Goddess of Darkness etc, I don't think I'll be able to RP out as much general and universal respect toward them. As an example, Lerad would idolize, and even worship, if you want to use that word, Mother Night or Grandmother Scorpion, but he wouldn't give two blinks to insulting Moon. He would, however, be fairly cautious and respectful if, say, Hoaracle was in the room.

Allyrianne

I'm not going to get particularly into Allyrianne's viewpoint here, because I'd rather people found that out in game.

I do think that there is more room for building up religion around Elders than around most mortals, because many of the elders did, in fact, contribute substantially to the world as our characters know it in creative and obvious ways. Lisaera woke Moon. Viravain made Crow. Lyreth taught the birds to sing. Maylea painted the flowers. Isune painted birds and the sky. Sure, Trillillial also painted the sky, and Allyrianne is a shard of Her, but as an individual, Allyrianne didn't paint the sky.

The Histories do suggest that there were hundreds, thousands maybe, Elder Gods. They also imply that the vast bulk of them are dead. There's implications of other worlds, other planets in the mythos, and there might be some possibility that all the Elder Gods were that brilliant, but we only really see and interact with the ones who made and interacted with things on the first world itself. There may be Divine whose works have all been utterly consumed by the Soulless, and we will never find out about them.

So, there's reasons for religions to grow up around Elder Gods. There's reasons for religions to grow up around other things. There's reasons for people to revere the elder gods, or admire their teachings, or view them as mentors, or view them as power grabby petty tyrants that you roll your eyes at, make lip service to (or don't), and move on. It's one of the things that I like about Lusternia, that all these different interpretations are valid ic. Also I don't feel like the bulk of the Elders claim infallibility or infinite superiority, unless it is ic for them to egotistically believe that about themselves.

Munsia

Alright, Lerad brings up another point however, if inadvertantly.

The spirits. They are a religion onto their own aren't they? Are they manifested beings, or are they in fact the way we view spirits here in the real world? 

Why are spirits < Divine?  An entire city may respect/devote themselves to an entire concept I suppose but wouldn't that make Glomdoring/Serenwilde far more religious in this sense to worshiping higher beings?

Everiine

Everiine holds the Great Spirits in such high regard precisely because they are NOT Elder Gods. The Created Great Spirits are manifestations of entire cosmic/elemental bodies. Mother Moon is not the "goddess" of the Moon, she IS the moon. Father Sun is not the Sun God, he IS the sun, etc. Then there are the Awakened Great Spirits, the collective consciousness of an entire species of animals who, in Ev's eyes, manifest the collective power and wisdom of those animals. They are wholly unlike the Elder Gods and mortal races.

I do think that the forests are much more religious than the cities. New Celest and Magnagora are close seconds, as they also worship the Supernals and the Demon Lords, but Gaudiguch's creche beings never matured enough to be conscious of themselves, and Hallifax's creche beings either died or matured into full Elder Gods and left.

Munsia

So, not a single person on the forums is zealous about Divine worship so far! Who would have thunk...

Xenthos

Munsia said:

Alright, Lerad brings up another point however, if inadvertantly.

The spirits. They are a religion onto their own aren't they? Are they manifested beings, or are they in fact the way we view spirits here in the real world? 

Why are spirits < Divine?  An entire city may respect/devote themselves to an entire concept I suppose but wouldn't that make Glomdoring/Serenwilde far more religious in this sense to worshiping higher beings?

The Gods made the spirits.  It's not really possible to worship a spirit without a healthy dose of respect for its creator (this is evidenced quite dramatically in the Shadowdancers, for example).  Xenthos has a considerable amount of devotion towards Viravain because she made Crow, and he's kind of a Crow at heart.

Basically, what some people are missing here is a key underlying concept:
The Gods made the entire world we live in now.  They made the colours we see, they painted the sunsets and the rainbows, the bright things and the dark (when it's talking in the histories about them painting things, they did nothing so simple as using paper and ink- they actually went out and made their visions into reality).  They created the Spirits, they made every single animal that roams around for us to hunt, they came up with the ideas of games and conflict and battle.

Lusternia would not exist without the combined efforts of them all; it would be an empty, barren rock.  There wouldn't even be the player races, because the shards were also made by other Elders who sacrificed themselves in an attempt to save everything... and succeeded, even if it resulted in the loss of their very identity for all time.

Basically, the Gods created Lusternia from the ground up (which is also kind of true from an OOC point of view, if you think about it. )

Saran

Xenthos said:

Munsia said:

Alright, Lerad brings up another point however, if inadvertantly.

The spirits. They are a religion onto their own aren't they? Are they manifested beings, or are they in fact the way we view spirits here in the real world? 

Why are spirits < Divine?  An entire city may respect/devote themselves to an entire concept I suppose but wouldn't that make Glomdoring/Serenwilde far more religious in this sense to worshiping higher beings?

The Gods made the spirits.  It's not really possible to worship a spirit without a healthy dose of respect for its creator (this is evidenced quite dramatically in the Shadowdancers, for example).  Xenthos has a considerable amount of devotion towards Viravain because she made Crow, and he's kind of a Crow at heart.

Basically, what some people are missing here is a key underlying concept:
The Gods made the entire world we live in now.  They made the colours we see, they painted the sunsets and the rainbows, the bright things and the dark (when it's talking in the histories about them painting things, they did nothing so simple as using paper and ink- they actually went out and made their visions into reality).  They created the Spirits, they made every single animal that roams around for us to hunt, they came up with the ideas of games and conflict and battle.

Lusternia would not exist without the combined efforts of them all; it would be an empty, barren rock.  There wouldn't even be the player races, because the shards were also made by other Elders who sacrificed themselves in an attempt to save everything... and succeeded, even if it resulted in the loss of their very identity for all time.

Basically, the Gods created Lusternia from the ground up (which is also kind of true from an OOC point of view, if you think about it. )

No, the elders are specifically incapable of creation. 

The awakened spirits are just that, spirits that were awakened from a pool of existing essence such as in the moon, the sun, as well as other natural objects or phenomena. Animal life is primarily just reshaped essence from the world itself, and the creation of a collective spirit seems more along the lines of a fluke that some elders had more luck with than others.

And there seems like there is a split between what the elders were responsible for and what Dynara was responsible for. Looking at the book of Clangorum, Aslarn stated that the forests are "anchors for much of the First World's lifeforce", they needed so much protection that the gods bound the forest fae together into the Maeve (and haven't we just loved her since). They go on to discuss the possibility of binding the trees together so that the forests could recover from something like what happened to Sakarich.

Perhaps I'm reading to much into their actions, but well... it seems like this indicates rather heavily that the elders are incapable of replacing a forest, the life force that each represents is something that existed before the elders came along and they just made it a bit more aesthetically pleasing. We do know that the elders could reverse the awakening of Sun, but it appears that would result in him being lost forever, which reinforces that the elders can only modify what already exists. There is also the further implication that the natural world itself when awakened is actually more capable of taking care of itself than the elders are of taking care of it, it's actually raising questions about why they didn't start more awakenings for different aspects of nature. Help the oceans, the mountains, the deserts, the plains, the valleys, all of the other aspects of nature that also possess life and spirits(we can assume thanks to the specification that the fae connected to the Maeve are only the forest fae) defend themselves and the world. This could even eventually lead to another bonding where you take the collective spirits of each aspect of nature and bind them together into an even greater collective spirit.

The fact that this is something that seems like it could occur to characters in-game would also lead to questioning the wisdom of the Elders, they know that once they bound the forests together, the forests were able to repel the soulless on their own... so why not repeat that on a world wide scale, so that the whole world might be able to repel the soulless. 

And well, the races don't actually seem like they were ever an attempt to save the world. They came off more as some of the elders just... giving up and it wasn't until the final five that they actually realised that this saved their essence from ever being truly absorbed by a soulless as long as the shards could continue to re-incarnate. In a way, this, along with the possibility of ascension, actually marks mortals superior to the elders, though that leads into a discussion on the Vernals and Ascendants. 

Xenthos

Saran said:

Xenthos said:

Munsia said:

Alright, Lerad brings up another point however, if inadvertantly.

The spirits. They are a religion onto their own aren't they? Are they manifested beings, or are they in fact the way we view spirits here in the real world? 

Why are spirits < Divine?  An entire city may respect/devote themselves to an entire concept I suppose but wouldn't that make Glomdoring/Serenwilde far more religious in this sense to worshiping higher beings?

The Gods made the spirits.  It's not really possible to worship a spirit without a healthy dose of respect for its creator (this is evidenced quite dramatically in the Shadowdancers, for example).  Xenthos has a considerable amount of devotion towards Viravain because she made Crow, and he's kind of a Crow at heart.

Basically, what some people are missing here is a key underlying concept:
The Gods made the entire world we live in now.  They made the colours we see, they painted the sunsets and the rainbows, the bright things and the dark (when it's talking in the histories about them painting things, they did nothing so simple as using paper and ink- they actually went out and made their visions into reality).  They created the Spirits, they made every single animal that roams around for us to hunt, they came up with the ideas of games and conflict and battle.

Lusternia would not exist without the combined efforts of them all; it would be an empty, barren rock.  There wouldn't even be the player races, because the shards were also made by other Elders who sacrificed themselves in an attempt to save everything... and succeeded, even if it resulted in the loss of their very identity for all time.

Basically, the Gods created Lusternia from the ground up (which is also kind of true from an OOC point of view, if you think about it. )

No, the elders are specifically incapable of creation. 

Wait, what?  There is an entire Circle of creators!  They created the alligators, and the birds, and the insects... I'm so confused as to what you think you read in the histories, because this is just Wrong.