When is it a good idea to attack somebody via declaring on prime?

Selenity

Due to the skirmish that happened earlier, I was wondering if there is a time when it is a good idea to attack on prime. I read HELP AVENGER and HELP DECLARE and gathered this much:

• If A declares B, B's friend C can defend them
  
• If A kills B after this, they are on B's suspect list (and possibly can be Avechna'd)
  
• If B kills A instead, B undergoes no penalties (self defense)
  
• If C kills A instead, C undergoes no penalties (defending an ally)
  

I read there are some events where Avechna basically plugs his ears and closes his eyes and goes, "lalalala I see nothing lalalala," but other than that, when is it appropriate to declare someone for a fight on Prime? Is it ever?

Maligorn

There's also the stipulation if A kills B but B attempted to defend themselves by attacking A in turn, A will not be penalized by Avechna.

Also depends on whether the person in question is in enemy territory (either an org's enemy territory or a PvE area, like the Illithoid Prison).

Silvanus

I never declare unless I'm confident I can kill them.

Lerad

The short answer: never.

Just don't do it, and you'll hardly, if ever, find yourself being kicked in the teeth for playing the game. It's really not worth it.

Lavinya

What Silvanus said. If you're not a combatant, making someone else declare you will always work in your favour. You may die once, but you're protected (and your friends can defend you and maybe kill your attacker!). I don't think I have ever declared someone, ever.

Iari

Selenity said:

I read there are some events where Avechna basically plugs his ears and closes his eyes and goes, "lalalala I see nothing lalalala," but other than that, when is it appropriate to declare someone for a fight on Prime? Is it ever?

I'm not really a combatant, but it's my understanding that any time Avechna puts his feet up, and won't protect you, that fact will show up when you SURVEY the area.

You may need someone else to confirm this, though.

Shuyin

It's great for harmony world games.

Maligorn

Shuyin said:

It's great for harmony world games.

Selenity

Thanks guys for the answers (even the joke by @Shuyin that went nyeeeooor over my head) and I'd like to recap to make sure I got it right:

• It's typically a terrible idea to declare + attack on prime, even if you're a combatant. 
  
• If you are a combatant, you better make sure you're going to land that kill if you do declare or else you've wasted your time, experience, etc.
  
• The exception to all of this is if you are an enemy to a place in enemy territory, or part of an organization in said organazation's territory, where Avechna basically turns a blind eye.
  

This sound about right? Am I missing anything?

Haezon

Not enemy territory persay but its worth noting that if you defile a Shine of an order you will be open to free PK on prime for a short time from all members of the order.

Shuyin

It's not a joke answer though.

I've probably declared more people during harmony world games compared to the rest of the year.

The structure of the event makes declaring one of the best options to ensure your team wins, provided you're willing to risk it.

Synkarin

There are times it's worthwhile, couple of them have mentioned, but the important thing is that if you declare and kill them, they are pretty much safe from you for 30 days, because while suspect isn't a big deal, Vengeance is a game ender for a period of time, it not only kills you, but you end up peaced for a period, unable to do anything than hang out.

Turnus

You should never ever declare somebody that you have already declared and killed in the past 30 days, if you hit them again they can call vengeance on you.

Likewise it's really not a good idea to get a bunch of pk bully statuses, because I believe (not fully sure) the penalty of vengeance/karma curses (not that curses mean much) gets worse the more people you've bullied.  Therefor it is generally better to save it for when you really need it.

If you declare somebody and don't kill them, there's no mechanical drawback - unless one of you has pk status on the other. Also your friends won't be able to jump in and defend you - but theirs can.

Munsia

Maligorn said:

There's also the stipulation if A kills B but B attempted to defend themselves by attacking A in turn, A will not be penalized by Avechna.

If A declared, A is still punished regardless of B defending themselves.

Also for @Turnus most of that should never be possible as long as pk careful is on. Regardless if you 'declare' them, pk careful will still prevent you from engaging.  Only newbies and some really dumb rpers turn pk careful off

Silvanus

You lose karma every kill you dish out for the amount of people on your victims list.

Got 5 victims, every kill (anywhere pretty sure too) you lose 5% karma.

After 15 people on your victims list, any new person gets automatic vengeance on you.

Always keep PK CAREFUL ON. There is never a good reason to remove this, as Kelly learned last year.

If you are running through enemy territory, anyone can attack you or zap you if they are in the area. Assuming they attacked you, that person can chase you into enemy territory and kill you still without getting Status. Also, any one of their allies can defend them, and chase you down anywhere and kill you without fear of Avenger.

Selenity

Shuyin said:

It's not a joke answer though.

I've probably declared more people during harmony world games compared to the rest of the year.

The structure of the event makes declaring one of the best options to ensure your team wins, provided you're willing to risk it.

Oh, wait, "Harmony World Games" is actually thing?

I thought it was like some secret reference I didn't get.

Xenthos

Selenity said:

Shuyin said:

It's not a joke answer though.

I've probably declared more people during harmony world games compared to the rest of the year.

The structure of the event makes declaring one of the best options to ensure your team wins, provided you're willing to risk it.

Oh, wait, "Harmony World Games" is actually thing?

I thought it was like some secret reference I didn't get.

The Harmony world game is the one where the person who influences the most mobs in an hour wins.

You prevent the other team's people from winning by declaring and locking them down without killing them (if you kill them, obviously you can't hinder any more).  Also, preferably, without dying yourself.

Elanorwen

Munsia said:

If A declared, A is still punished regardless of B defending themselves.

Also for @Turnus most of that should never be possible as long as pk careful is on. Regardless if you 'declare' them, pk careful will still prevent you from engaging.  Only newbies and some really dumb rpers turn pk careful off

Declaring while under suspect clears the protection that pk careful offers. The only thing that changes along the road is if your target had vitae up and died, then you have to redeclare to attack again... but why would you ever want to do so? (Of course, if you are in enemy territory, you can attack without having to declare, at which point Avechna will definitely be unhappy with you, making fights in enemy Prime territory even more pointless than they already were)

Synkarin

why would Avechna be unhappy if you're killing someone in enemy territory?

Avenger doesn't protect those in enemy territory.....

Enyalida

Possible she's referring to Avenger status on someone on your bullied list not respecting enemy territory?  I vaguely remember that having happened before.

For clarity: I declare and kill Noobiela, and have her put on my list. For her to get avenger status, I need to hit her again, but pk careful will stop me. If she is in enemy territory (but still not hitting back), I don't have to declare and therefore could inadvertently hit her with passives, which may give her Avenger status.

Synkarin

It won't though if you have pk careful on, because you hitting someone in enemy territory forces them to auto-declare you. Shouldn't give Vengeance whatsoever, and if it goes, it's a bug and should be reported.

Enyalida

I'll see about doing some testing a little later. There have been surprises before in these kinds of things.

I'm not sure what you mean, though. With careful on, you do not need to declare someone in an enemy territory to attack them, because you are not declaring them. So the attack would go through?

Synkarin

Nope, because them being in enemy territory means they aren't protected by Avenger, so no need to declare, so you can hit without declaring.