The foolishness of overbuffing kits.

Since it seems we are not allowed to envoy about skills until after the endless overhaul is done, I'll bring it to the forums. For some time now, it has been quite obvious that cantors were overbuffed with their special report. Yes, I know cantors cried until their eyes bleed for buffs, but developing Princessfarewell to have the effect of: Instant Aeon (bypass quicksilver), blackout -and- stun for the measly cost of 3 power is absurd, this is not even bringing up the other problems in the kit. Anyone that has actually been paying attention to combat brawls in the recent months can see that the fact of the existence of this ability alongside a Dramaturgy 'scene' (which is currently being abused to copy other class line attacks in order to try and trick someone's system (like with an illusion) into believing they have been hit with something extra, which is against the spirit of the entire concept of that skill), has apparently become the definition of 'Skilled'.

Princessfarewell is frankly a mockery of combat balance, added with the ease of giving hidden anorexia by dramaturgy as well as other afflicts and then simply damage-killing an individual with enhanced attacks through starhym and a 50% fire 50% divinus starchord. If they notice the target has begun to cure out of the mess, they simply princessfarewell again. This is considered balanced? Myself and others have become rather tired of mechanics like this being somehow accepted, yet it it wasnt too long ago we had made a special combat report concerning skills that gave instant aeon with little defense for the target to fight back on. This not even mentioning the truckload of skills seen as "Not Fair" that were nerfed to the point of becoming untouchable. Why is it with combat balances, there seems to be the need the develop skills of "break or bust" for classes believed to be "sub-par", thus making them becoming toxic to game combat?
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Comments

  • While I agree with what I perceive as your intent to bring attention to a possibly conflict-damaging point, I read just a touch of emotion involved in this post.

    Breathe mate, we're all players here. 

    On a related note, is there a defense against the blank-princess-deathchord-win offense?
    Is also the Shintar.
  • edited November 2014
    Blank-pfarewell-dsong won't kill you. Apparently dsong is 3p, but you'll still be able to cure out before dsong resolves and eat earwort. Pfarewell's lockdown is more suited for damage bursts than dsong or dtarot.

    I haven't been on the receiving end too often, so I'm not sure what the damage looks like nowadays (was it nerfed once before? I had the impression that it was) but well, if it's still too much, there's always the option of hitting it with the stick again. For that end, logs and information about dmp (on both user/victim) will be very nice, rather than just ranting.

    Dramaturgy being used for mini-illusions is not new - it's been used that way since it came out, and coding exceptions for it is not too difficult. (I think the admin never said it was against the rules to use them that way too) I still have the trigger of Ollie's dramaturgy ecto lines when he was a Hallibard. Also, with afflines on, it's quite easy to (highlight the line and) see when you just got hit by a dramaturgy scene. Keeping track of such things in your head during combat when you're fighting a bard is part of countering them. It's just like getting your head wrapped around aurics without diagnosing: you need to know when to pick up your skirt-hems and dash for cover when you're fighting a bard in octave, and getting a feel of how many hidden afflictions (drama scenes) you've been hit by is important as well.

    Besides, if you're fighting a cantor, you'll be in blackout hell anyway, so diagnosing often is standard-operating-procedure. If you pay attention, they'll find it a lot harder to catch you out with hidden anorexia.

  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Drama afflictions were actually okayed to resemble other skills when they first came out, so that's nothing new, and frankly, it's fine. 

    Learn to add lines to check for stuff....

    Anyway, yes, if they're just spamming blanknote-pfarewell-dsong, you'll have time to 1) eat earwort, or 2) walk away because they aren't using pfifth. The current team of cantors doesn't use pfifth very often, usually jumping straight into pfarewell.


    Anyway, Princessfarewell is strong (or it wouldn't be used so much) but it isn't overbearing. It's one of the nicer targetted songs out there, and spam in groups can be pretty killer, but that's groups. Skysforzando in loralaria is really similiar (but it requires a lust).  



    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    If all they're doing is blank/p5/deathsong, they have absolutely no skill.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    If they're wasting 5p to princessfarewell you, they're not pfifthing you, it's pretty easy to get out as needed.

    What I suggest you do is just trigger the dramaturgy illusions to assume anorexia (has risks naturally), that way, you immediately try to cure anorexia before curing aeon, thereby saving you some time.
    image
  • farewell only takes 3p 
  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark Australia
    I want Princessfarewell. That will make things fair. Will also trade 50% cutting 50% excorable for that sweet fire/divinus combo.

    (brb moving to Celest)



  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    My bad, still applicable.
    image
  • It's sure hard to get out of a room when you're anorexia'd, stunned, blackout'd, and aeon'd, since it's kind of a bad idea to just hope that SOUTH works under all that.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Tumble, easy stuff. 

    It's time to get worried right around the time they get anorexia + stupidity under aeon. One or the other makes it okay, if a bit annoying.
    image
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals
    I was hoping this thread would be about the genie bottle collection curio powers.

    I have them and love them, but they're still ridic. Can we get around to tweaking h/m/e buffing for the overhaul already? Envoys can handle skills.

  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer
    Lavinya said:
    I want Princessfarewell. That will make things fair. Will also trade 50% cutting 50% excorable for that sweet fire/divinus combo.

    (brb moving to Celest)
    Kalas Ixion, The Devouring Blade (Male Undying Demigod Changeling).
    Request Denied.
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Vivet said:
    I was hoping this thread would be about the genie bottle collection curio powers.

    I have them and love them, but they're still ridic. Can we get around to tweaking h/m/e buffing for the overhaul already? Envoys can handle skills.

    This is why I was pushing to fix buffs before anything else! I think it'll have the most overall impact.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • edited November 2014
    If people could just have less than 10k health, that would be greeeeat. (Totally not plotting for the betterment of astrologers everywhere)

    EDIT: In all seriousness, a full astrology combo (assuming you aren't hindered at all), is around 8300 damage total over the course of 6 seconds. Takes 15-20 seconds to build toward (along with anywhere from 4000 to 8000 endurance+willpower) and a variable amount of power. Also assumes the target doesn't move at all in those 6 seconds
    I occasionally like to pretend that I'm replanting all of these herbs to attract bees, and might one day form an alliance with the bees and take over the Basin. Then we could have a wonderful tea party with plenty of honey and the best tea blends.
  • Most damage abilities scale to max health in part. I can't remember if meteor had a max health component, but either way, you're likely to see the damage of it drop considerably against less healthy targets (and similarly, go up against higher max health targets). Of course, with less max health, the non-scaling component of damage abilities will become more important and significant.

    The problem with high max health is not that they can tank things like a one-off meteor (most damage formulas make it difficult to do 100% health damage in a single skill, whatever the skill is), but rather because it renders the non-scaling part of damage abilities insignificant or negligible while at the same time boosting regen, vitals curing as well as health buffer (having 10% health remaining when your max is 1000 is a lot less than having 10% health remaining when your max is 10000) that indirectly, but very impactfully, leads to survivability. And also because it's only available to a handful of min-max'd people.

  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Lavinya said:
    I want Princessfarewell. That will make things fair. Will also trade 50% cutting 50% excorable for that sweet fire/divinus combo.

    (brb moving to Celest)
    I want 100% excoro chem nukes and a timed insta, but I doubt I'll get either. Sorry.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • From all of my testing, Meteor does not scale with max health whatsoever. it was around 5700 damage (4 spheres) against every target, and would outright kill anyone with lower health than that.
    I occasionally like to pretend that I'm replanting all of these herbs to attract bees, and might one day form an alliance with the bees and take over the Basin. Then we could have a wonderful tea party with plenty of honey and the best tea blends.
  • edited November 2014
    Drop 1spheres on a bunch of targets, damage should vary. At least I think it did when I tested. Remember to account for dmp.

    Edit: Yes, I'm aware that the sphere count affects damage. My suggestion was that a 1sphere would produce more noticeable differences among test subjects because there's no measurable difference between overkill by 200 damage and overkill by 1200 damage.
  • edited November 2014
    Kalnid said:
    Drop 1spheres on a bunch of targets, damage should vary. At least I think it did when I tested. Remember to account for dmp.
    Damage is based on severity of the sphere. a -1 sphere will always be weaker than a -2 sphere and so-on. You were correct that fire/magic defensive DMP comes into play as well.

    The problem isn't meteor, though. It's massive, massive buffs to H/M/E that scale into absurdity and kick an already unreliable skillset in the teeth.

    EDIT: Back to the topic at hand though, some skills have seriously been overbuffed while others have seemingly been ignored. I've come to accept it as part of the game.
    I occasionally like to pretend that I'm replanting all of these herbs to attract bees, and might one day form an alliance with the bees and take over the Basin. Then we could have a wonderful tea party with plenty of honey and the best tea blends.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Elanorwen said:
    Lavinya said:
    I want Princessfarewell. That will make things fair. Will also trade 50% cutting 50% excorable for that sweet fire/divinus combo.

    (brb moving to Celest)
    I want 100% excoro chem nukes and a timed insta, but I doubt I'll get either. Sorry.
    I smell bitter

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • we are hella bitter about princessfarewell
  • When we nerf hekoskeri, spix, remove ectoplasm, nerf fireforte, change destruction's damage typing, nerf geochem (and aquachem) damage nukes, so on and so forth...

    you probably still won't find grounds to nerf princessfarewell. It's been argued up and down for years.

    image
  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark Australia
    (ectoplasm is already on the way out)



  • Maligorn said:
    When we nerf hekoskeri, spix, remove ectoplasm, nerf fireforte, change destruction's damage typing, nerf geochem (and aquachem) damage nukes, so on and so forth...

    you probably still won't find grounds to nerf princessfarewell. It's been argued up and down for years.
    That's what they said about Choke. Alas, poor Choke, I knew ye well.
    image
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    I like how whenever we complain about skills, it's never skills we use.
    image
  • That seems natural to me. By and large, we're on the receiving end of opposing skillsets, not our own. We suffer through each others' hinder and damage, so we complain about it if it's too much. The only thing I ever hear complaints about from the south side is Inquisition and PrincessFarewell.

    image
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Nerf decapitation?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Shuyin said:
    Not to name names, but certain people seem to be transcendent whining too.

    I'm sure that partly explains the disparity.
    Either that or the disparity in skills. Find me a bonds, brume, ecto, twist, sluggishness, passive transfix, vine noose equivalent in any northern org and I'll agree with your statement.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    edited November 2014
    I think a lot of the issues we have with each others skills is because the (stereotyping here) good side has a lot of Defensive/Healing/Protective skills, and the bad side has the offensive side. The problem is that you don't see a lot of the defensive stuff being used; when was the last time you noticed a Stag user dropping a totem in a fight? Does anyone ever have Healers sitting off a few rooms away reflexively farcuring people?

    Speaking as someone who has been on both sides of the conflict, and there isn't a single person here who can deny that, the southern orgs have a metric crap ton of better cohesion in battle, and they work well together because they know what each other's skills do. They practice, they write up reflexes to change targets on command, they work on all sorts of ways to not only get better, but help others get better. They aren't afraid of dropping credits on a promising newbie, they aren't afraid of taking people under their wing and teaching them how to help, even if it's just webbing/vining, and knowing when to do so.

    The north, in my opinion, isn't even close. There's a few people who always show up to battles, always compete, and aren't afraid to stick their necks out. Then there's a mindless flood of just random people who don't work to get any better, learn each others skills, or even to recognize when to fight and when to flee. These are often the types of people who influence to demigod and wonder how things work because they don't get out there and do things. They're so afraid of failing that they don't even try, or they figure someone else can handle it and that they won't make a difference. And you know what? The first set of people in the north, the competors? They don't try to convince the others any different.

    So it's not just skills, though I'll agree that some skillsets are obviously better than their counterparts. It's also attitude. It's giving a damn and not being afraid to lose if there's a slight chance of winning or even just learning something or getting a few lines to highlight/illusions to ignore.

    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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