Because they're high stanza songs. They're your most powerful songs. They aren't piddly mid levels. There is a certain degree of risk that comes with power (see: taint, Goloth, Ice Angels), and that would be having your song at 7, 8, 9 stanza.
Umm, I can't tell if you're just trying to be funny, and if you are then my question still stands. If your argument is purely RP-based, claiming that it needs to be a "high" stanza and not a "piddly mid level", this doesn't even make sense within the context of true musical composition, where the climax or "power" of the song usually does not occur at the end.
The fact that it's hexes-lite and has very niche use (and even then, just for a small subset of bards) is part of what bothers me. I understand what the set does well, and what the supposed draws are, I just... really don't agree. There was an entire thread where I laid out exactly why, and what my own suggestions were for the skillset. Not really relevant here, though.
I've used ecology to decent effect as a Druid, I get it... and yet I still say it's one of the weaker sets with almost the least amount of group use and is on the lower end of effectiveness in 1v1 (for a druid). Then again, you argue that herbbane plays a crucial role for all bards, by adding <.1 seconds to cure times on earwort, allowing victories with deathsong or something. Clearly, VASTLY differing opinions. Ditto illusions, which are increasingly phased out by affmessages and system tricks (like gmcp tracking herb eats by changes to your inventory table). Still has some uses, not uber fantastic ones. Neither are probably the worst tertiaries in the game (right now, that's almost certainly dreamweaving), but their relative strengths must be considered for context. No one is saying these tertiaries are ( ( UTTERLY USELESS ( (.
The point remains: Having your song up is a really big deal, and theoretically most of a bard's power comes (or: should come?) from the music spec - especially for forest bards. It's the bard's signature skill, the only one they do not share with other archetypes, that literally defines their class! Making it so easily negated, or demanding that bards utilize something like 70% of their song at any time to counter that benefit is problematic, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
Because they're high stanza songs. They're your most powerful songs. They aren't piddly mid levels. There is a certain degree of risk that comes with power (see: taint, Goloth, Ice Angels), and that would be having your song at 7, 8, 9 stanza.
Umm, I can't tell if you're just trying to be funny, and if you are then my question still stands. If your argument is purely RP-based, claiming that it needs to be a "high" stanza and not a "piddly mid level", this doesn't even make sense within the context of true musical composition, where the climax or "power" of the song usually does not occur at the end.
I haven't really thought this through, so don't eat me if it's a bad idea.
If fugue needs to stay to be a counter to passive effects, then how about moving the targeted active skills (note: not deathsong) to mid stanza? This would be PrincessFarewell, CairnLargo, DrunkenFool, QueensLament, SkysForzando, and CrowCaw. In this, the bard can make the choice between having the high stanza passive effects, or fighting at mid stanza to better keep their song. I think this also helps the problem where, if your song does get dropped (especially when you die and are trying to get back into the fight), you don't have to sing all the way up to high stanza to have access to your bread and butter.
As long as Shotnote is moved to mid-stanza for Minstrels too! Can't use drunkenfool unless we make the target drunk with shotnote first (and if they're drinking against a Minstrel, well that's just silly).
I'm not really opposed to this, it would present a tradeoff, and I like tradeoffs. It would also present more team coordination effort. Like one person rolls with high stanza songs for those effects, while the other sit on mid stanza's for actives etc.
Again, remember that the other 4 song specs besides Starhymn and Loralaria don't have easy rewind songs to play, they have to compete with nothing but reprise.
Sorry, this is what I get for a quick look through skillsets. Yeah, should be ShotNote for Minstrels, not DrunkenFool. Or you can have both, I don't really care! It's pretty bogus that you need to sing up to stanza 7 to re-enter fights to be able to use your skills.
I disagree, having been playing a bard for the better part of 3 years now at a high level and very much dealing with fugue regularly, using all 4 tertiaries, I think there are plenty of things for both city and commune bards to do sans song. It's not necessary, it's a bonus.
If a song was really all that important, then why aren't we having song times last closer to meld times (30mins-ish) instead of 5 mins max. You can hinder a bard enough to make his song fade when the time comes and there we are at square one.
Edit: it's got to be both for Minstrels, one leads to the other.
Because they're high stanza songs. They're your most powerful songs. They aren't piddly mid levels. There is a certain degree of risk that comes with power (see: taint, Goloth, Ice Angels), and that would be having your song at 7, 8, 9 stanza.
Umm, I can't tell if you're just trying to be funny, and if you are then my question still stands. If your argument is purely RP-based, claiming that it needs to be a "high" stanza and not a "piddly mid level", this doesn't even make sense within the context of true musical composition, where the climax or "power" of the song usually does not occur at the end.
EDIT: Moreover, having your active songs at mid level locks you out from using high stanza songs. Not a good tradeoff. See report 771 and report 857.
Sorry, I'm not logged in so I can't see reports right now, but you're not "locked out" from progressing your song to high stanza. You're making a choice to keep your song low, and then in the event that your song does drop, you don't have to sing it back all the way to regain your targeted skill.
I disagree, having been playing a bard for the better part of 3 years now at a high level and very much dealing with fugue regularly, using all 4 tertiaries, I think there are plenty of things for both city and commune bards to do sans song. It's not necessary, it's a bonus.
If a song was really all that important, then why aren't we having song times last closer to meld times (30mins-ish) instead of 5 mins max. You can hinder a bard enough to make his song fade when the time comes and there we are at square one.
Edit: it's got to be both for Minstrels, one leads to the other.
Your song timer resets when you sing, so the comparison to meld effects is pretty lacking. If you're hindered for 3+ minutes without singing, then you deserve to lose your song!
I disagree, having been playing a bard for the better part of 3 years now at a high level and very much dealing with fugue regularly, using all 4 tertiaries, I think there are plenty of things for both city and commune bards to do sans song. It's not necessary, it's a bonus.
If a song was really all that important, then why aren't we having song times last closer to meld times (30mins-ish) instead of 5 mins max. You can hinder a bard enough to make his song fade when the time comes and there we are at square one.
Edit: it's got to be both for Minstrels, one leads to the other.
Your song timer resets when you sing, so the comparison to meld effects is pretty lacking. If you're hindered for 3+ minutes without singing, then you deserve to lose your song!
You can refresh your meld effects too! I'm just saying for something sooooo important, they don't really last that long.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
@Shaddus - iirc - dissolving still takes balance, it just doesn't require eq, which is what allows you to dissolve after performing an action, so no, you can't just dissolve everyone in one fell swoop, otherwise why aren't more people doing this?
It's been a while since I've played a melder, but I'm semi sure that it doesn't take balance, it just requires both balance/equi. I mean, some melders add it to the beginning of their attack alias just to dissolve every chance they get. I may very well be wrong about the requirements.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Shaddus - iirc - dissolving still takes balance, it just doesn't require eq, which is what allows you to dissolve after performing an action, so no, you can't just dissolve everyone in one fell swoop, otherwise why aren't more people doing this?
It's been a while since I've played a melder, but I'm semi sure that it doesn't take balance, it just requires both balance/equi. I mean, some melders add it to the beginning of their attack alias just to dissolve every chance they get. I may very well be wrong about the requirements.
Evidently you are locked out, because you called those high-stanza moves bread and butter. I stand my belief that it is a horrid tradeoff.
I meant that the targeted skills were the bread and butter. At least I assume that to be true for everyone, but at least as a Cantor I'm not singing for the passive effects. I want to milk those sweet PrincessFarewell buttery tears (here comes the nerf PFarewell derail).
I disagree, having been playing a bard for the better part of 3 years now at a high level and very much dealing with fugue regularly, using all 4 tertiaries, I think there are plenty of things for both city and commune bards to do sans song. It's not necessary, it's a bonus.
If a song was really all that important, then why aren't we having song times last closer to meld times (30mins-ish) instead of 5 mins max. You can hinder a bard enough to make his song fade when the time comes and there we are at square one.
Edit: it's got to be both for Minstrels, one leads to the other.
Your song timer resets when you sing, so the comparison to meld effects is pretty lacking. If you're hindered for 3+ minutes without singing, then you deserve to lose your song!
You can refresh your meld effects too! I'm just saying for something sooooo important, they don't really last that long.
Yeah, no, not seeing the relevance of the comparison. Again, I don't really care about the passive high stanza effects, Not being able to get to targeted skills is the real annoyance.
@Shaddus - iirc - dissolving still takes balance, it just doesn't require eq, which is what allows you to dissolve after performing an action, so no, you can't just dissolve everyone in one fell swoop, otherwise why aren't more people doing this?
It's been a while since I've played a melder, but I'm semi sure that it doesn't take balance, it just requires both balance/equi. I mean, some melders add it to the beginning of their attack alias just to dissolve every chance they get. I may very well be wrong about the requirements.
Yeah, maybe a current melder can confirm, but dissolve is usually tagged on the end of attacks because it requires bal and not eq, but it's been a long time for me too, so confirmation would be good.
Maybe Fugue needs to be changed to advancing a person's song timer, not advancing their actual song?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Evidently you are locked out, because you called those high-stanza moves bread and butter. I stand my belief that it is a horrid tradeoff.
I meant that the targeted skills were the bread and butter. At least I assume that to be true for everyone, but at least as a Cantor I'm not singing for the passive effects. I want to milk those sweet PrincessFarewell buttery tears (here comes the nerf PFarewell derail).
Just got to drop the stun and it's all good, or maybe add in the curelines again.
I disagree, having been playing a bard for the better part of 3 years now at a high level and very much dealing with fugue regularly, using all 4 tertiaries, I think there are plenty of things for both city and commune bards to do sans song. It's not necessary, it's a bonus.
If a song was really all that important, then why aren't we having song times last closer to meld times (30mins-ish) instead of 5 mins max. You can hinder a bard enough to make his song fade when the time comes and there we are at square one.
Edit: it's got to be both for Minstrels, one leads to the other.
Because who cares about the timers? My demesne timer could be way shorter if it only took me 9 balances (or fewer, for 3p) instead of over a minute standing still or 8p to re-raise. There comes a point at which more time has no meaning, the engaged portion of combat doesn't generally last very long*. The idea that it's "just a bonus" is crazy slippery, where is the line drawn there? Is a demesne/forest terrain "just a bonus" for a druid?
There are equivalently 'plenty of things' for a druid to do outside of their demesne through tertiaries, and though psionics provides a much larger variety and potency of said things (in the way tarot does for bards) it's still said that druids are tied to demesne more than mages. Pretty clear parallel here. Druids have several proactive measures to take that allow them to theoretically stop you from depriving them of their primary skill (which, as you mentioned, is less important and hindering as a bard song) without sacrificing any of that same ability. Why not extend the same courtesy to bards?
If you can mysteriously hinder an acrobat from taking the one quick balance it'll take to reset his song, which he can do at any time (no need to wait until the last seconds) something has gone badly wrong on their end already. Forget square one, you've already gone to jail without passing go.
@Kelly I have no idea what you're talking about. High stanza effects tend to be the more powerful skills? From what I remember, when introduced Loralaria felt like it was intended to be cycled through. There were targeted effects at each level of power, that built into one another. You'd lust in mid stanza, move on to high stanza and make use of the lust - resetting your song so that you could rinse and repeat. It was a different kind of vision for a bard guild, but one that ultimatly didn't hold any water and was changed. Is that what you are talking about?
*This is why I blew off the bard artifact. What does it do for you?
-Makes your instrument permanent... just like playing it every so often does, totally free of charge.
-Makes you maestro with that instrument ... just like playing it every so often does, totally free of charge
-Extends your song time .... hey, that's the "playing it every so often" I mentioned! It doesn't even cost you ego, if you're smart!
Arguing song timers is probably the sketchiest thing I've seen yet. Has literally no relevance to Fugue. Telling someone to just "deal with it" as far as erasing your primary skillset in a few fast balances and tiny amounts of power is like telling an Ebonguard PB to fight without PB. Or a melder without meld, or a guardian without ents.
Deleting Fugue would never fly. There needs to be a way to shut down another bard outside of earwort. I am against turning reprise into some quicksilver defense. We suggested the skill because bards had a way of moving the song to the next stanza and replaying the current stanza but there was none that would allow them to go back a stanza. So if you wanted to stay at stanza 7 but you accidentally played to stanza 8, you'd have to end the song and start all over again.
If you're fighting against another bard, it's understood that it's bad practice to stay on the 9th stanza. You can make triggers/highlights for fugue so you'd use reprise either reflexsively or manually. If your song does get shut down, you still have at least one other skillset to alternate your offense with while building up the song. Fugue can suck, yeah, but it's necessary.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Arguing song timers is probably the sketchiest thing I've seen yet. Has literally no relevance to Fugue. Telling someone to just "deal with it" as far as erasing your primary skillset in a few fast balances and tiny amounts of power is like telling an Ebonguard PB to fight without PB. Or a melder without meld, or a guardian without ents.
And it's like justifying being a melder without a meld as a mage with psionics talking to a druid.
which, as you mentioned, is less important and hindering as a bard song
I didn't say less important, I said less hindering. Mechanics wise, most melders rely on there demenses much more than bards rely on their songs, but that's just the way it works. As has been said time and time again, you're not going to kill anyone with decent curing while spamming Pfarewell, crowcaw, queenslament, Skysforzando. It's just not going to happen, and that's been shown time and time again. The passive effects in general don't help build to the kill method. The best bet here is Loralaria getting a sleeplock, but if you have metawake up, then you're not going to hit it.
Edit: deathsong needs a song, but unless you're being gimmicky, or you're in a group, it's not going to hit anyone who knows what's going on.
Uh, if you can trot out anecdotes, so can I. You so totally CAN (or could) kill people with crowcaw spam, if you were smart about it. At the least, you force them to run away, their mana totally depleted and a huge chunk missing from their health. In a group situation where you can't easily run away, it was game over, all without octave or any other skillset's help! Time and time again!
We're also talking about group scenarios here, why did the conversation suddenly shift to single combat?
EDIT: Not just Crowcaw. Most of the specs have a really strong effect like that in their music skill (though Wildarrane's is not its active skill, it's probably faeditty) that their bards tend to rely on. This is less of the case for Minstrels, who are textbook bardians. Minstrel abilities are obnoxious, but less directly active, you're right.
@Kelly I have no idea what you're talking about. High stanza effects tend to be the more powerful skills? From what I remember, when introduced Loralaria felt like it was intended to be cycled through. There were targeted effects at each level of power, that built into one another. You'd lust in mid stanza, move on to high stanza and make use of the lust - resetting your song so that you could rinse and repeat. It was a different kind of vision for a bard guild, but one that ultimatly didn't hold any water and was changed. Is that what you are talking about?
Derp, you're right, I was confusing the mechanics. I guess my thought should have been along the lines of making those targeted skills both mid or high stanza options. Basically just wanted the option to stay at mid stanza and still have access to those skills; i.e., if you wanted to trade not having the high stanza passive effects for keeping your song up.
Because songs are even less necessary in group combat than in solo combat
And no, you can't kill anyone with decent curing with crowcaw spam, try again.
I used to in group fights as Vitas. Just saying.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Because songs are even less necessary in group combat than in solo combat
And no, you can't kill anyone with decent curing with crowcaw spam, try again.
I used to in group fights as Vitas. Just saying.
Well sure, that's group fights, just like Pfarewell, Skysforzando and all them will get you kills too, I'm talking solo fights, and in groups, the question is 'is your song necessary to kill people'
the answer is 'no your song is not necessary to kill people'
Because songs are even less necessary in group combat than in solo combat
And no, you can't kill anyone with decent curing with crowcaw spam, try again.
I used to in group fights as Vitas. Just saying.
I used to in both group AND solo fights, against some big names. Amusingly once against Wobou, who had some of the best curing I've ever fought or played with (as a druid). Who is it who is always telling everyone they just need to try more anyways? Clearly, you just need to take your own advice: try harder to make it work :P.
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Yeah, no, not seeing the relevance of the comparison. Again, I don't really care about the passive high stanza effects, Not being able to get to targeted skills is the real annoyance.
Deleting Fugue would never fly. There needs to be a way to shut down another bard outside of earwort. I am against turning reprise into some quicksilver defense. We suggested the skill because bards had a way of moving the song to the next stanza and replaying the current stanza but there was none that would allow them to go back a stanza. So if you wanted to stay at stanza 7 but you accidentally played to stanza 8, you'd have to end the song and start all over again.
If you're fighting against another bard, it's understood that it's bad practice to stay on the 9th stanza. You can make triggers/highlights for fugue so you'd use reprise either reflexsively or manually. If your song does get shut down, you still have at least one other skillset to alternate your offense with while building up the song. Fugue can suck, yeah, but it's necessary.
We're also talking about group scenarios here, why did the conversation suddenly shift to single combat?
I'll go trundle off to a warrior thread...
It is indeed an intriguing idea, but yeah. It's been tested and has crashed and failed before.
but it will expose them to Toadcurse in groups. Easily.