Just to check - this process is currently just a direct conversion of defenses to the tier system, right? Or is this also the process of adding/subtracting resistances to classes now that they're being fully accounted for?
I'm pretty sure it's both: Adjusting the values given for the five tier system into a better ten-tier system, AND checking to make sure that those assigned values are in the right ballpark (which @Xenthos is doing already for many of the skills).
Just to check - this process is currently just a direct conversion of defenses to the tier system, right? Or is this also the process of adding/subtracting resistances to classes now that they're being fully accounted for?
To be clear, I'm not adding new defenses to guilds which don't have them, it's a conversion of existing skills to the new system in what is (hopefully) a balanced manner.
"Super tattoos" is a question. What levels would they be looking at? Everyone can get to 10, monks can get to 20.
Psymet is not used in combat generally, too easily hindered (which causes momentum loss). The primaries lack any real defense, the secondaries............ can we remove the regen from harmony or make it cap out with racials? That 25% max health regen is nuts. Stealth has bracing, not sure if that will work on all damage skills or warrior/monk attacks specifically still.
Normal combat monk>
Acrobatics
Harmony or Stealth
Will dodge be changed to general resistance to all? (Which I'd be fine with really, we can remove all dodging please, dodging sucks to fight.)
Note that dodge is the "equivalent" to psymets DMP, or was intended to be. Dodging has been nerfed no less than twice (it is usually 6% chance to fire, because it is halved if you attacked recently or if it fired recently, and you should be attacking). I am not asking for psymet levels of resistance, I just do not want people to assume that 0% skill defense is fine because you can get like 10% from a tattoo instead of 5.
Currenlty trans tattoos just increases the benefit from tattoo armour (which is like robes/armour ans not DMP.) Kata Tattoos doubles the DMP of monk resistance tattoos.
Yes, tattoos giving double the DMP weight is what I'm refering to with 'super tattoos'
It's just plainly false to say that monks don't have any kind of dmp or resistance. Choosing not to have psymet doesn't mean monks don't have dmp, it means you're choosing dodging over dmp. Acrobatics has dmp too by the way, it's just more situational.
So under the new system would parent pools fall away? I had to trans discernment to get full benifit from all my psymet defenses.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited March 2015
I'd also note that monks can effectively choose races with higher base constitutions that casters. Aslaran is base 12, illithoid is freaking 16. Krokani is 15.
So while they may have less DMP than wiccans, that's not without good reason or reasonable compensation. Higher con, which means higher sip, higher scroll, higher sparkle, higher regen, etc.
Given the lack of critiques for the overall theme after providing the Serenwilde list, I've gone ahead and (mostly) finished up everyone else's resistances.
Just ignore psymet, you are still ignoring the part where I said most monks will be acro. Acrobatics does not really have DMP available, it has dodging, so is that converting to resistance or are we keeping the dodging mechanic?
Dodging, as I said, has been nerfed twice to be less and less effective. Dodging was supposed to how acrobatics mitigated damage, and that has been cut in half in most cases.
Magic damage scales, more health does not usually matter against casters. I can have 10K health (with some effort and expendables), but that means I might take 3000 from a staff where you only take 1500. HP is important in bashing and against physical classes, but less important against magic ones (especially if they aren't trying to damage you out).
I am more so hoping we change ALL dodging (again) to be resistance all, instead of the current mechanic. There is acrobatics dodging and foresight (foresight is superior for almost no cost), so it should not be hard to replace. Tripleflash can either be the only remaining dodge mechanic or make it an increase to resistance to all. Harmony regen should go away or work as normal regens do (it stacks with racial and mercy).
@Qistral: Basically all the DMP offered to monks specifically is from the increase (not creation of) dmp from tattoos. Acrobatics is not really a DMP contributor. Harmony monks also have a huge benefit in this area, because you can have 25% max health regen every 12s, OR you can have stealth which relies on not being hit more so.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Damage is only partially percentage based. It retains a large portion that is flat damage. Con remains a huge factor in a persons to mitigate damage. I have played high con and low con races.
and there's pretty much no situation where you're going to take 2x the damage just because you have more health.
You can't ignore psymet just because you want to, that's not how balancing works. Acrobatics are among the most able classes to escape. Monks and bards are pretty slippery, even without dodging. Springup and contort contribute significantly as well.
The point of the buff system isn't to add buffs (though there's been no justification as to why monks need it), it's to fix other problems. I don't think monks need any more dmp at the current point
You are citing a single tertiary as the source of resistance for 4 guilds, most of whom will not take that one tertiary.
The obvious result is dodging should become damage resistance all (since you don't have psymet, you can't stack the resistances from both).
Yes, you can ignore criteria that are not relevant. If you do have psymet you have access to specific skills to up resistance, but if you have acrobatics you do not. I have asked about acrobatics (dodging specifically) every time I have brought up the point. You can keep hammering on psymet, but I did not ask for more resistance in psymet. I have been asking about acrobatics (aka, most monks).
Not sure why monks are specifically undeserving of some damage mitigation. I am fine with it being via tertiaries, where most guilds get it in primaries, but it should still be assumed they should qualify for some.
I also want it kept in mind, no one has any idea how monks and warriors will really work once they get to those afflictions. I cannot even begin to guess what changes we will need and if the hardlocks that most guild use will still be there or end up changed (like the paralysis change removes power cost from Nekotai's).
Will we get damage resistance, preferably with the removal of dodging mechanics universally? Dodging is not really fun, it is completely chance based if it works and comes at the cost of little real resistance (its 15 dmp in bashing). Foresight is even worse, not having the side effects requested and having little real cost considering the duration. No one wants to fight rolling the dice on dodge, and the people with dodge would rather have sustainability that does not go away completely when you are sprawled or such. Win win, dodging can go away.
tl;dr Stop hammering psymet, what does acrobatics get. Monks are gonna be funky in overhaul. Dodging should be removed (in all forms preferably).
I know I'm one of the very few who use psymet. But I know how it works, so I'm commenting on the changes to it. I just have little knowledge of acrobatics and so cannot make calls on how it should be used/changed.
If you want to change a skill, this is not the place to do it. This thread is for converting skills from DMP to the new tier system. That's all I'm authorized to do here!
I will add that it looks like Dodge was dropped from Xiel's original sorted list for some reason (*poke Xiel*), but you should be able to do that conversion yourself. I've said all along what the ratio I'm working with is: Anything 20 dmp or less will translate to 1/8, so that is what Dodging would be.
Comparably, the new psymet is going to give less resistance than the old psymet is. Personally, I'm okay with that, especially if it gives me space to push for other mechanics in psymet to make up for it.
I agree that dodging is one of the mechanics that really don't add anything to combat, fun-wise. If the admin are willing to discuss changing dodging (and/or foresight), I'm definitely on board with changing how it works, too.
I don't know about other monk envoys, but one of my ideas for psymet in the new system is to let it have less resistance overall, but more choices. Right now, psymet has fairly good resistance coverage against physicals and elemental, and a psymet user can use psionic (the base skill) defs to boost one or two elemental types up even higher. In Xenthos' proposed numbers in the new system, the overall resistance provided by psymet defenses are reduced (25 dmp -> 2/10 (6%), 30 dmp -> 3/10 (9%)) but instead of pushing it higher, I'd like to add choices to resist cosmic or poison to psymet, to make it even more versatile instead of just making a psymet monk tankier in absolute terms.
As for acrobatics, elasticity has always been a problematic skill. It provides dmp, and therefore the illusion of tankiness, but it is only affected by warrior/monk attacks, which makes it both a frustrating mechanic for those classes to deal with as well as preventing more meaningful resistances to be given to acro monks, because more meaningful resistances stacked onto elasticity will simply make things untenable for warrior/monks trying to fight acrobats. I want to repurpose it to be also useful against magic users, but not necessarily as a resistance ability, hopefully in order to move away from acros simply screwing warrior/monks over unconditionally as well as to shore up the overall drop in resistances monks will also experience going into the new system. But that's further down the road, probably after looking at what physical affs will be like.
Sorry if this has been stated already, I've been following this thread on and off. Can you translate the scale? 1=?% etc?
Before it was changed to a 10-tier system, tier 1 was 10% resistance and every tier got another 5%, ending up at 30% at tier 5. With having ten tiers instead of five, I'm assuming it'll be something like this:
It's not just dodging, they also get full access to tattoos which can be 20dmp in anything you want it to be.
As Xenthos said, this is for converting, not changing. Monks don't need more resists, they have plenty of defensive abilities. Turns out they have pretty great offensive abilities too, but apparently @Malarious wants his cake and eat it too.
Sorry if this has been stated already, I've been following this thread on and off. Can you translate the scale? 1=?% etc?
Before it was changed to a 10-tier system, tier 1 was 10% resistance and every tier got another 5%, ending up at 30% at tier 5. With having ten tiers instead of five, I'm assuming it'll be something like this:
It's not just dodging, they also get full access to tattoos which can be 20dmp in anything you want it to be.
As Xenthos said, this is for converting, not changing. Monks don't need more resists, they have plenty of defensive abilities. Turns out they have pretty great offensive abilities too, but apparently @Malarious wants his cake and eat it too.
Not really, but I like how you are the only person becoming personal.
None of the above are resistance to dying to damage, which is what the resistances mean. "Resistance to sprawl" is not something that stops staff or such. If you want to explain in game you can, but so far you are taking it personal and ignoring the problem given (lack of DMP in acrobatics). Things like avoid are not damage resistance, they are evasion. If you are actively casting it you are losing your offense and your opponent is healing up. Since I apparently have to be very specific and clear with only you here somehow: I want to see acrobatics potentially allow standing and fighting someone without the dodging mechanic and not dying outright to damage spam. No one knows about monks offensive capabilities post overhaul, so we haven't even brought it up. As I said, I feel there is a disconnect, so if this was unclear you can poke me in game, so it does not encourage you flaming further.
@Xenthos: I will poke Lerad a bit on the changing dodging over. I think we are better off with no dodging, as it it dice roll on whether things hit or not.
@Lerad: I would prefer foresight gone for the same reason, and tripleflash can be replaced for maybe higher levels of defense while active (3/8 for the same duration and power or something). Elasticity.... well it does not show up on bodyscan, so you can't be fooled that way. Given tattoo armour and target armour robes now, we do not really need a dmp against wounding attack when deflect is factored in. I am not sure how they will change warriors in the overhaul process, so this could be changed.
I believe outliers are scaling down as well, so I assume that while resistances are lowering overall we should expect damage to follow such a trend, at least in part (warriors might scale down less because they already do less for instance).
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
You're being exceedingly selective in the scenario you want monks to be successful in. True, low dmp means you have to know when to play defensively more than a person with high DMP. What you are choosing not to acknowledge is how your skills allow you to escape damage kills easier than a Wiccan who has high dmp. You want more resistance to direct damage while keeping all the options to avoid damage kills and maintain an offense while hindered that high dmp classes like Wiccan don't have. There is a greater dynamic at play than straight up tanking damage.
Thank you for explaining your perspective, it is easier to respond to than .
Playing defensively as a monk is counterproductive unless we can maintain momentum. I am asking about removing dodging (the main way we avoid damage kills indirectly), because our active options require us to lose offense for some time (sipping being 4s means at least that long to sip again most likely). Wiccans and guardians need to get a combo off and they are generally fine to an extent, monks need to get to high momentum to try at a combo that has no guarantees of hindering. A monk will often try to hardlock at high momentum, where wiccan is happy to sleeplock or aeonlock for the same hindering.
After considering further, if the scenario holds true that overall damage does go down, it may not be as important, as that lessens the need to mitigate it. As a side note for you @Celina, it was brought up that the 3K vs 1500 damage was a situation I would likely have been illithoid, so the damage was not purely scaling, it was scaling + 30% from racial (which is math I don't want to do but 1.3X = 3000 solve for X for damage i would have otherwise taken). I am ok with waiting to see how things turn out for fine adjustments to the process but am still in favour of removing dodging as a mechanic and using the general 1/8 as Xenthos listed is normal. Tripleflash can be changed to increase that number.
I would also still like to remove some of the extra regeneration style abilities that ignore the regeneration level system (like harmony).
Sorry if this has been stated already, I've been following this thread on and off. Can you translate the scale? 1=?% etc?
Before it was changed to a 10-tier system, tier 1 was 10% resistance and every tier got another 5%, ending up at 30% at tier 5. With having ten tiers instead of five, I'm assuming it'll be something like this:
Perhaps it will be, perhaps it will keep the same progression as the old five-tier system. What speaks for the latter is the fact that the five-tier system didn't have 6% per level.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Thank you for explaining your perspective, it is easier to respond to than .
Playing defensively as a monk is counterproductive unless we can maintain momentum. I am asking about removing dodging (the main way we avoid damage kills indirectly), because our active options require us to lose offense for some time (sipping being 4s means at least that long to sip again most likely). Wiccans and guardians need to get a combo off and they are generally fine to an extent, monks need to get to high momentum to try at a combo that has no guarantees of hindering. A monk will often try to hardlock at high momentum, where wiccan is happy to sleeplock or aeonlock for the same hindering.
After considering further, if the scenario holds true that overall damage does go down, it may not be as important, as that lessens the need to mitigate it. As a side note for you @Celina, it was brought up that the 3K vs 1500 damage was a situation I would likely have been illithoid, so the damage was not purely scaling, it was scaling + 30% from racial (which is math I don't want to do but 1.3X = 3000 solve for X for damage i would have otherwise taken). I am ok with waiting to see how things turn out for fine adjustments to the process but am still in favour of removing dodging as a mechanic and using the general 1/8 as Xenthos listed is normal. Tripleflash can be changed to increase that number.
I would also still like to remove some of the extra regeneration style abilities that ignore the regeneration level system (like harmony).
I agree, but momentum (by general definition, not the monk mechanic) isn't a strategy that's unique to monks. Several guilds require momentum, and where those guilds are susceptible to being hindered, acrobats are susceptible to damage. So I do understand the issue, it's just that you lose out on dmp so that you can handle things like prones and entangles better which is a huge boon (which, in a roundabout way, do impact how much damge you take in groups. If you can escape easier, you take less damage). The argument, for me, is that if acro wants more dmp, it needs to lose some of its escape abilities. It's debatable which is better, the ability to escape or the ability to tank, because both have limitations. No one really dies straight up to damage at the higher tiers of combat 1v1 or even 1v2, where as tanking only gets (i.e. a certain threshold of people smacking you) you so far in group situations before the ease of escape becomes more valuable. I, for example, would happily give up a little dmp for something better than Night flight as an escape mechanic, but it's all perspective really. I'd even go as far to say with healing, drink, and my dmp pile, I was probably top 3 tankiest players behind Karlach and Xena and maybe Kelly before I went dormant and there were often situations where tankiness just didn't cut it without a reliable way to GTFO.
I'm not opposed to the discussion over an envoy report, especially to remove dodge and replace with a different mechanic that's less random and annoying for everyone. Just needs to go through the envoys IMO.
We missed wildewood badger in the original post. I added that to Estarra's OP. It's a 4/4 universal damage resist.(Not adjusted for the proposal to increase the max to 10.) It still maintains the mechanic of "absorbing" the damage and then the badger dies when he's absorbed too much.
I also just now loaded several bug fixes. The most notable is that the damage buffs and resistances will be amplified. Prior calculation had two bugs, both of which diminished the impact of buffs / resists in many conditions. Also fixed issues in how fireflies and puissance are consumed. I have one more update to make to puissance, though.
Should barkskin be blunt too? Just noticed that it's only listed for cutting but it's both currently.
Currently in the old system that is cutting only. Adding blunt would be changing its mechanic, something we're generally not doing unless there is a compelling reason.
Comments
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fyo9RnFbKd_zRVicwRu0r5Px_j5a32eFyZv0ubdW2f0/edit?usp=sharing
Questions for Roark:
Why is Interference on the Defense list? It looks like it should be providing Offense.
I will add that it looks like Dodge was dropped from Xiel's original sorted list for some reason (*poke Xiel*), but you should be able to do that conversion yourself. I've said all along what the ratio I'm working with is: Anything 20 dmp or less will translate to 1/8, so that is what Dodging would be.
Tier 1: 5%
Tier 2: 10%
Every tier after: +2.5%
Tier 10: 30%.
It's going to be a no from me.
I also just now loaded several bug fixes. The most notable is that the damage buffs and resistances will be amplified. Prior calculation had two bugs, both of which diminished the impact of buffs / resists in many conditions. Also fixed issues in how fireflies and puissance are consumed. I have one more update to make to puissance, though.