One with Nature/Enhanced Regeneration

EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty WomanMember Posts: 4,384 Transcendent

I am looking for help coming up with replacement abilities for the upcoming Elfen and Faeling demigod power, as listed here. The Loboshigaru power suffers many of the downsides mentioned as well, so it should be discussed too!

Essentially, having such a high regeneration bonus wastes the large number of 'overflow' levels that will inevitably occur, as well as providing a smaller benefit (with a very limiting terrain restriction). When compared with the active offensive abilities of Aslarans and Orclach, the passive offenses of Dracnari and Viscanti, the escaping skills of Furrikin and Trill, the passive defenses of Dwarf and Krokani, the utility of Lucidian and Human, and so on, One with Nature falls short.

Before the racial stat overhaul, the primary benefit of the Elfen race is having no poor stats, with racial (non-titan/demi) base statistics rising into the range of 16-17, with a low stat of 10-12 (10 strength for bard/nature specs, 12 charisma for warriors). The racial regeneration of mana and health in the forests had no effect for this spec race, if played in their specialization's org, due to enchantment, skill, and org construct bonuses. Without statistics,  the race's ostensible mechanical point is lost.

The current effect of regeneration is a 1% of the vital's maximum value every 10 seconds per level. A player with 6000 health can therefore expect to regenerate 60hp per level per tick and so on. The numbers on health pools are still a little uncertain, but from what has been put out so far, we can expect that vital totals averaging around 6000-7000 will be average. Each additional level of regeneration is therefore a benefit of 60-70hp/10s.

Right now, demigods automatically recieve a 3/8 regeneration to all vitals. The basic regeneration enchantments add 2/6, bringing the baseline for regeneration up to 5. Before any specific buffs, the One with Nature benefit is down one level of buff, the Lobo is down three. Currently, all Serenwilders get at least a 2/8 bonus to health and mana regen when outdoors (this relevant because Elfen are the Serenwilde spec race). At that point, these elfen are at 7, only receiving three levels from their demigod power - half of what is considered balanced against other races. If those Elfen are Druids or Stag Warriors, they additionally recieve a 4/8 buff from stagform, bringing them to 8 and only one third use of their racial benefit. Two levels is ~150/10s. For comparison, sparkleberry over 1500/10s to multiple vitals in any terrain.

Seeing as most of the unique bonuses from a race come at the demigod level or higher, it's not appropriate to have a benefit that is so quickly rendered negligible without artifacts or effort. 

In my next big post, I'll try to lay out a few different ideas I've come up with, to try and spark potential ideas.

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Comments

  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    Not all elfens are Serenwilders. I really don't think this is a problem, and I've played Serenwilde elfen most of my game history.

    So what if the cap caps your regen? That's why it's a cap. Saying you only get 3 levels from the demi power is not really true. You get 6 levels, it's capped. So...I would be really happy to never have to use mercy again ever. Less enchuantments to get/wear/etc.

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    That's true, not all elfens are Serenwilders or vicea versa. However, the spec races are generally balanced around their spec versions - in the same way that we balance skillsets around transcendent. Nothing is balanced around "What if I don't feel like using my skills, or getting what amounts to free regeneration - tiny handfuls of gold at most- from items."

    At the very base, with no skill bonuses, no organization bonuses (like constructs), no buffs from divine or questing sources, no domoth-related buffs, no artifacts, and no karma blessings, there are several levels of these abilities that are capped out for these three races. There are no other other racial demigod powers that cap out under those conditions, or even under fully buffed conditions - though defense/offense values might cap, most of the demigod level bonuses to those things are universal in some way - it's highly unlikely you'll have capped everything. Add in any external bonuses at all and the effect intensifies. 

    This is not an argument against the existence of caps: it's an argument against having a small handful of races having primary effects that cap out (far before they get maximal benefit, as well), while the majority do not.


  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,478 Transcendent
    For the record, you have to look at it in the context of other things. Such as their other buffs (only very specific races get damage buffs, which is significant) and things like divinus resistance which can be hard to come by.


    That being said, faeling/elfen demigod buffs totes suck because the cap is so easily obtained without their racial perk. I have no intention of playing one. 
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  • AllehnonAllehnon Member Posts: 69 Capable
    I don't know how to fix it, but I can say as it stands I am probably switching from Elfen post-overhaul. Some of the non spec races seem better than the spec races, currently.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,819 Transcendent
    I have to agree, given how easy it is to stack up regen levels from other sources, it makes regeneration as a racial extraordinarily lackluster (especially as an ability that you have to pay for to utilize in some manner or another).
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  • TauTau Member Posts: 106 Adept
    I was happy before the buff changes went through, but now I would agree that 8/10 regeneration is pretty boring. Without the changes I'm already sitting on 9. Maybe the answer is to remove regen from the other sources, since we're already in the way-late stage of race overhaul
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    I think it's more a matter of reviewing regens as a whole rather than this one specific trait.

    If it is a simple matter to max out your regens currently then perhaps certain abilities could be modified to limit this, though it'd also be interesting to see how the cities turn out in terms of regen potential.

    I guess my other concern is the situational nature of some regens. It's okay to say that Seren Demis can wake up with 7 regen, but this drops to 5 indoors. Health regen for Totems users is also 10... when they're bonded to tree and standing next to an appropriate totem... they also get a couple levels if they're standing in a river.


    I'm also kinda curious to see how the other orgs shape up in these terms, I think Mag is the only one that gets a regen option from a construct (outside the planar regen ones), and well Glom's one is based on it being night yeah?



    IDK, I feel like I see a lot of "regen options" on my skills that could potentially be switched to something else (Tree, River, Moon, and Sun all immediately come to mind... ESPECIALLY TREE AND RIVER) , because they're skills that could be doing something useful as opposed to making my bodyscan go up and down when I walk around. And while doing that we could then work out if one with nature could become as some form of artefact equivalent trait or if it's unsalvagable.
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    Would it be allowable to give Lobos and Elfen a X/13 regen buff? It would remove the need for them to buy artifacts (which may be why i would be disallowed), but it would at least make their regen actually better than other races.

  • PejatPejat Member Posts: 104 Adept
    The problem, as stated before, with the demi powers of elfen, faeling, loboshigaru, and illithoid is that they can pretty easily be made superfluous. For example, a Loboshigaru that finally gets 8/10 health regen is already going to also have demi health regen 3/8. There is no possible way for them to make the full use of their 8/10 health regen. 

    As @Baelor stated, the main idea was to give a slight and unique advantage. With that in mind, I would suggest giving bonuses like 2/15. It is a drastic drop from 8 but it would achieve the intent of making Loboshigaru slightly better at regeneration than any other race. The Loboshigaru player would still be encouraged to buy artifacts. Without any regen artifacts they would receive a max health regen of 12. Only with the 3/13 rune could they obtain 15.
    For Mister Zvoltz, Pejat has been terminated by the Replicant Dynodeon.
  • AkyaevinAkyaevin Member Posts: 586 Fabled
    edited June 2015
    Saran said:
    I'm also kinda curious to see how the other orgs shape up in these terms, I think Mag is the only one that gets a regen option from a construct (outside the planar regen ones), and well Glom's one is based on it being night yeah?


    Mag Liches get 4/10 in taint from our construct.

    (also the Spire is a -5 penalty to health and -3 to the others, applies after the cap, and apparently applies offprime even after being bug-reviewed, so it's a net loss 60% of the time...)
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    That certainly is one quasi-solution: Lower base resists across the board so that the caps aren't as trivial to reach. Being able to actually reach higher levels than others is another way to handle it (though again, 1-3 levels is only 1-3% added per 10 seconds) However, I still feel that these demipowers cheat the races out of a truly unique benefit such as most of the other races get.
  • DaganevDaganev Member Posts: 755 Master
    How about use of ecology pathways writhin the proper forest type?
  • TurnusTurnus The Big Bad Wolf Member Posts: 581 Transcendent
    Just throwing out the (imo boring) solution of a universal damage (or resistance) buff while in the appropriate environment. Boring, but at least an easy change too.

    ~--------------**--------------~

    The original picture of Turnus is still viewable here, again by Feyrll.
  • KallisteKalliste Member Posts: 115 Capable
    edited June 2015
    Pejat said:

    As @Baelor stated, the main idea was to give a slight and unique advantage. With that in mind, I would suggest giving bonuses like 2/15. It is a drastic drop from 8 but it would achieve the intent of making Loboshigaru slightly better at regeneration than any other race. The Loboshigaru player would still be encouraged to buy artifacts. Without any regen artifacts they would receive a max health regen of 12. Only with the 3/13 rune could they obtain 15.
    My understanding was that the entire point of the overhaul is to make sure things like this never, ever happen; i.e., you should only be able to get x/13 buffs from artifacts, and you should never be able to get x/>13 buffs. Otherwise, skills like numen that were incredibly nerfed as a result of this system's implementation could have just been turned into 16/16's or whatever.
  • BaelorBaelor Member Posts: 268 Master
    Turnus said:
    Just throwing out the (imo boring) solution of a universal damage (or resistance) buff while in the appropriate environment. Boring, but at least an easy change too.
    And is already part of their tier 5.

    I've been mulling over this today, nothing I can give you at this point, but know I'm reading this thread and taking ideas on board.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    Daganev said:
    How about use of ecology pathways writhin the proper forest type?

    I feel like this would be too limited, just because it would mean the demipower would only function inside Serenwilde or Glomdoring depending on your race while moving it to a wider availability (natural terrain) seems too good.
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  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    How about faster / more effective sipping?
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,819 Transcendent
    Shedrin said:
    How about faster / more effective sipping?
    They said that the racial bonuses they took out, they want to stay out (which includes herb consumption bonuses and sipping bonuses).  I think this is because they want curing to be consistent.
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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    edited June 2015

    Enyalida said:
    That certainly is one quasi-solution: Lower base resists across the board so that the caps aren't as trivial to reach. Being able to actually reach higher levels than others is another way to handle it (though again, 1-3 levels is only 1-3% added per 10 seconds) However, I still feel that these demipowers cheat the races out of a truly unique benefit such as most of the other races get.
    All benefits are relative to the system that they exist within. One side of all this is that I feel that the overhaul has lead to situations such as this, that there is stacking available that's not really useful any more, or has highlighted existing issues, that there is stacking that was never really useful.

    If "Serens" can access such high levels of regeneration without employing their skills then this can negate the usefulness of some of their other skills, which means they could potentially be envoyed to something else. (Ever since this has come up River and Tree have really annoyed me >_>)

    One idea that popped up was what if we actually ran with the overstacked regens? figured out just how over the top they can be pushed and then had something like an active heal that is stronger based on your regen levels (even the otherwise useless ones), long cooldown. Though this of course is a stacking mechanic which the system is designed to minimize but might be a way to work with the issue?
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    How about, instead of elfen/fealings getting regen, they get damage reduction in natural areas? That's harder to max out than regen (I think?)

  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,403 Transcendent
    Suggestion: increased summon resistance while in terrain, being in their natural home allows them to use it to prevent forced movement.

    Suggestion: increased ability to bypass movement hinders like carcer etc, being in their natural home allows them to blend into the surroundings and become harder to prevent tracking



  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,819 Transcendent
    Qistrel said:
    How about, instead of elfen/fealings getting regen, they get damage reduction in natural areas? That's harder to max out than regen (I think?)
    That is already the demi+ perk.
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    Ah. I thought demi+ was just bonus damage.

  • BaelorBaelor Member Posts: 268 Master
    Just a follow up from this, we're going to look at regen overall and how it stacks, with regards to Elfen/Faeling/Loboshigaru's tier 4 being underutilised, and likely reducing the effect of a lot of abilities as to give these racials value.

    This will not be live when the racial overhaul hits, but will be deployed some point after. I'd give a timeframe but I don't want to be held to it, but the goal will be as soon as possible.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,478 Transcendent
    Uh wait. If the skill sucks, the skill sucks. Nerfing everything else to make it appear better does not make it less sucky. You just made everything suck. Not the best way to go about it.
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  • AllehnonAllehnon Member Posts: 69 Capable

    I agree with @Celina, making everything suck equally so as to give the illusion of the end result being a good thing is not the way to go.

    It certainly doesn't make me want to play an Elfen post-overhaul anymore than the current iteration of regen does, not when there are so many better options with other races, and being in Serenwilde I should want to play an Elfen.

  • BaelorBaelor Member Posts: 268 Master
    edited June 2015
    The complaint in the OP was that the regeneration racial was suffering from overflow and being wasted, this is an action to resolve that issue, nothing further.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical

    Celina said:
    Uh wait. If the skill sucks, the skill sucks. Nerfing everything else to make it appear better does not make it less sucky. You just made everything suck. Not the best way to go about it.

    Depends on how it's done though and the intended levels of the system. If everything is currently too high then it needs to be nerfed.


    Still hoping tree and river can be changed to something more useful.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,478 Transcendent
    edited June 2015
    Baelor said:
    The complaint in the OP was that the regeneration racial was suffering from overflow and being wasted, this is an action to resolve that issue, nothing further.
    I get why you are doing it. What I'm saying is that if you are going to nerf something, there should be a reason to nerf that particular thing. If regen levels are too strong, that is when you nerf regen levels. Which can't possibly be the case right now because we all went into this overhaul with maxed out regen and it was never ever a problem. 

    I really thought the goal was to maintain the status quo as much as possible and adjust from there. Dropping the status quo for everyone just to force lobos and elfen/faelings into the system seems counter productive and a net loss for the game, considering those are only 3 races. I really wish you'd just take our suggestion and not make regen a demi power. 

    Because it sucks. Which is plainly apparenlty now that we are dropping everyone else's regen just to make their regen better in context. 

    Are we buffing the % per level to compensate?



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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    edited June 2015
    Celina said:
    Baelor said:
    The complaint in the OP was that the regeneration racial was suffering from overflow and being wasted, this is an action to resolve that issue, nothing further.
    I get why you are doing it. What I'm saying is that if you are going to nerf something, there should be a reason to nerf that particular thing. If regen levels are too strong, that is when you nerf regen levels. Which can't possibly be the case right now because we all went into this overhaul with maxed out regen and it was never ever a problem. 

    I really thought the goal was to maintain the status quo as much as possible and adjust from there. Dropping the status quo for everyone just to force lobos and elfen/faelings into the system seems counter productive and a net loss for the game, considering those are only 3 races. I really wish you'd just take our suggestion and not make regen a demi power. 

    Because it sucks. Which is plainly apparenlty now that we are dropping everyone else's regen just to make their regen better in context. 

    Are we buffing the % per level to compensate?





    Kinda gotta ask... what's the point of having regen buffs then?
    I feel like everyone wants to be at the top and it seems like that makes a system where it can vary kinda pointless.
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