Sorry, but I don't think those requirements from Serenwilde are anywhere near absurd. You need a system, you need to know how to handle a revolt OR a flare OR a domoth...like this is baby stuff. None of those suggest anything near 'top combatant', but more basic functionality that literally everyone is capable of.
The point was not that the level of requirements are absurd. But we've been debating whether or not VA is just for combat, or can be for RP, or as a model of the org's ideals. I'm pointing out that in Serenwilde, most of the requirements for VA are combat related, because that's all Serenwilde leaders care about in a VA. So it's absurd to think that in Serenwilde, anyone but a good combatant can be VA. Serenwilde people get pretty angry when a VA isn't pulling their weight and claiming enough domoths or leading enough raids.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Maybe we need ascendant powers that are strictly for rp as opposed to hunting/pk powers like destruction or aegis.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Maybe we need ascendant powers that are strictly for rp as opposed to hunting/pk powers like destruction or aegis.
We have at least one as a Beauty power. I was the first one to ever use it a few years after it came out (I know, because it was bugged and didn't even work) to make a wedding ring with the line: "The beauteous craftsmanship of Spirit Warden Xenthos An'Ryshe, the Ebon Strategist radiates throughout it." But when I first used it (testing it by creating artisan items in my manse), the power didn't even work. It does now at least! I know at least one of the newer Ascendants used it for a couple of items, but the RP powers tend to be less desired than the others.
I'd use that one more if the weight was lower / none, because I like it, but not enough for 15 weight worth of powers.
Maybe we need ascendant powers that are strictly for rp as opposed to hunting/pk powers like destruction or aegis.
We have at least one as a Beauty power. I was the first one to ever use it a few years after it came out (I know, because it was bugged and didn't even work) to make a wedding ring with the line: "The beauteous craftsmanship of Spirit Warden Xenthos An'Ryshe, the Ebon Strategist radiates throughout it." But when I first used it (testing it by creating artisan items in my manse), the power didn't even work. It does now at least! I know at least one of the newer Ascendants used it for a couple of items, but the RP powers tend to be less desired than the others.
I'd use that one more if the weight was lower / none, because I like it, but not enough for 15 weight worth of powers.
I believe given the opportunity, that the RP effects of Ascendants could be used. But I suppose it would depend upon the selection and preference of the org itself, as has been discussed. I know that if I ever had the chance, I would grab onto everything pretty much.
The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
Maybe we need ascendant powers that are strictly for rp as opposed to hunting/pk powers like destruction or aegis.
We have at least one as a Beauty power. I was the first one to ever use it a few years after it came out (I know, because it was bugged and didn't even work) to make a wedding ring with the line: "The beauteous craftsmanship of Spirit Warden Xenthos An'Ryshe, the Ebon Strategist radiates throughout it." But when I first used it (testing it by creating artisan items in my manse), the power didn't even work. It does now at least! I know at least one of the newer Ascendants used it for a couple of items, but the RP powers tend to be less desired than the others.
I'd use that one more if the weight was lower / none, because I like it, but not enough for 15 weight worth of powers.
I believe given the opportunity, that the RP effects of Ascendants could be used. But I suppose it would depend upon the selection and preference of the org itself, as has been discussed. I know that if I ever had the chance, I would grab onto everything pretty much.
Oh, I bought everything ages and ages ago. But, given weighting issues, you can only have a small subset of it active at any point (and, with that, it tends to be better to keep the things active that actually provide a mechanical benefit to the people around you vs. just being neat).
BF: Incidental fun is a bad way to measure anything a game, giving players god mode would be fun for them, would this make it a valuable addition to the game?
Isn't that what we already do? The portal of fate allows mortals to ascend ever closer to godhood. Not all-powerful, but gods. And you really do have to earn it. It is also literally true, if only in perceptions. I know that for several years the attacks I encountered, from anywhere and any time seemed godlike, and unstoppable. What other game lets us become gods? What is more unique than that about Lusternia, compared to any other game?
It's fair because it is available to everyone. If you work for it. I know as I finally earned demigod mode (in more than just 100 levels), the world became a lot less intimidating. Anyone can do it.
It's an achievement I haven't found anywhere else. How much more valuable could that addition be?
What becomes unfair is when some people's divine will imposes on others. The necessary rules are already in place, in this game. We're not full gods, but anyone can get closer to it, all the time. We're gifted a spark of the divinity of godmode. What you choose to do with it is your choice, which is why raids of any kind don't really qualify as an imposition.
If there is something better you want to be doing, you are free to do it at any time. The only one making anyone respond to any raid is themself.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Oh, I bought everything ages and ages ago. But, given weighting issues, you can only have a small subset of it active at any point (and, with that, it tends to be better to keep the things active that actually provide a mechanical benefit to the people around you vs. just being neat).
Does it have to be mechanical to benefit the people around you?
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Well it also provides more of whatever the thing normally does. More prestige is the main one. I think artisan lets you fit more in a room. And cooking is more filling, but who really eats food for the nutritional value these days?
I will admit maybe being younger helped too - no one had a job, we lived in our parent's basements as lame virgins, and were just generally more patient with things.
This, a dozen times over. Life used to be pretty quiet in between studies and Lusternia was normally the biggest source of tension I encountered - I won't lie. These days I have pretty much zero interest in activities that will amp up my nerves again after I get home. I need to unwind at some point in the day.
4
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Sorry, but I don't think those requirements from Serenwilde are anywhere near absurd. You need a system, you need to know how to handle a revolt OR a flare OR a domoth...like this is baby stuff. None of those suggest anything near 'top combatant', but more basic functionality that literally everyone is capable of.
The point was not that the level of requirements are absurd. But we've been debating whether or not VA is just for combat, or can be for RP, or as a model of the org's ideals. I'm pointing out that in Serenwilde, most of the requirements for VA are combat related, because that's all Serenwilde leaders care about in a VA. So it's absurd to think that in Serenwilde, anyone but a good combatant can be VA. Serenwilde people get pretty angry when a VA isn't pulling their weight and claiming enough domoths or leading enough raids.
I don't think you read the requirements you posted....
3 out of the 5 bullet points are not combat related at all. Beyond that, the payoff of VA is in mechanical benefits, it's how they and domoth powers were designed. You can't RP back millions of power as a VA anymore than you could as a demigod. You can, however, accomplish things in the PK world as a VA that could not be done as a demigod.
When you look at the history of VAs in Lusternia, it has predominantly been heavy RP/org leaders who have a grasp on combat ranging from extremely strong like myself to "I hope they don't die too much," like Narynth, but it has very rarely favored PK over RP. I don't recall a purist non RPing combatant ever being raised other than Munsia.
3 out of the 5 bullet points are not combat related at all. Beyond that, the payoff of VA is in mechanical benefits, it's how they and domoth powers were designed. You can't RP back millions of power as a VA anymore than you could as a demigod. You can, however, accomplish things in the PK world as a VA that could not be done as a demigod.
It can, indirectly. RP engages completely different kinds of people, who each often go on to individually add more power.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
That's...silly. I mean, I get it. RP inspires more interaction, draws more players, etc etc but VA does not imbue you with magical RP powers you didn't have as a demigod, and any power gained by a VA RPing is unspecific, impossible to measure, and based on a lot of assumptions.
The point was that RP VAs are just like RP demigods only with a 2 million power semi special snowflake status. There is nothing more to them then there was before they were raised.
Sorry, but I don't think those requirements from Serenwilde are anywhere near absurd. You need a system, you need to know how to handle a revolt OR a flare OR a domoth...like this is baby stuff. None of those suggest anything near 'top combatant', but more basic functionality that literally everyone is capable of.
The point was not that the level of requirements are absurd. But we've been debating whether or not VA is just for combat, or can be for RP, or as a model of the org's ideals. I'm pointing out that in Serenwilde, most of the requirements for VA are combat related, because that's all Serenwilde leaders care about in a VA. So it's absurd to think that in Serenwilde, anyone but a good combatant can be VA. Serenwilde people get pretty angry when a VA isn't pulling their weight and claiming enough domoths or leading enough raids.
3 out of the 5 bullet points are not combat related at all. Beyond that, the payoff of VA is in mechanical benefits, it's how they and domoth powers were designed. You can't RP back millions of power as a VA anymore than you could as a demigod. You can, however, accomplish things in the PK world as a VA that could not be done as a demigod.
That being said, one of those three is optional and the other two are probably just grinding ability/activity checks.
BF: Incidental fun is a bad way to measure anything a game, giving players god mode would be fun for them, would this make it a valuable addition to the game?
Isn't that what we already do? The portal of fate allows mortals to ascend ever closer to godhood. Not all-powerful, but gods. And you really do have to earn it. It is also literally true, if only in perceptions. I know that for several years the attacks I encountered, from anywhere and any time seemed godlike, and unstoppable. What other game lets us become gods? What is more unique than that about Lusternia, compared to any other game?
It's fair because it is available to everyone. If you work for it. I know as I finally earned demigod mode (in more than just 100 levels), the world became a lot less intimidating. Anyone can do it.
It's an achievement I haven't found anywhere else. How much more valuable could that addition be?
What becomes unfair is when some people's divine will imposes on others. The necessary rules are already in place, in this game. We're not full gods, but anyone can get closer to it, all the time. We're gifted a spark of the divinity of godmode. What you choose to do with it is your choice, which is why raids of any kind don't really qualify as an imposition.
If there is something better you want to be doing, you are free to do it at any time. The only one making anyone respond to any raid is themself.
No, he literally meant godmode, permanent divine fire, one hit ko's regardless of your level and experience.
And if you're looking to become a god I'd point you to Skyforge, which was designed from the ground up for people to become gods so the game is balanced around that expectation.
However, I also feel like this discussion is getting rather circular and is almost as entirely pointless as the faux-raids being discussed.
I do not feel like these are valuable capacities to have in the game, there are a wide variety of potential mechanics that can be developed that would curb this behaviour while also encouraging more participation and investment in Org V Org, ideally providing those resorting to kick-and-runs something else they can engage in with actual meaning to it.
That's...silly. I mean, I get it. RP inspires more interaction, draws more players, etc etc but VA does not imbue you with magical RP powers you didn't have as a demigod, and any power gained by a VA RPing is unspecific, impossible to measure, and based on a lot of assumptions.
The point was that RP VAs are just like RP demigods only with a 2 million power semi special snowflake status. There is nothing more to them then there was before they were raised.
I believe that's the complaint and also shows how wildly the perception of VA can vary.
For some people Vernals should be people that we venerate, people that rally the rest of their org around them. They're meant to be iconic, something that we're all meant to aspire to become, yet only the chosen few will ever achieve these lofty heights.
Like... I'd like to be an ascendant and all, but I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing. Helping out from time to time when I can, though I'd probably want to spend more time trying to get a cult than building up the other benefits ascendant gives (which to me is the bulk of the benefit). But Ascendant as it is just doesn't inspire in me what it's "meant to" I guess.
Like sure, if I could rp my way to it, I'd spend rl years working on it but right now with what it gives... I just don't want ascendant.
Though now I kinda want some system where we can gather mob followers in a mini order as a demigod >_>... *goes back to skyforge for a bit*
You want to be the sort of person your org rallies behind, you want to support them and be this paragon of ideals (this is my understanding of YOUR understanding, in romanticized terms of Vernal Ascendant), but you don't want the mechanical imposition of actually being an Ascendant based on the understanding that you would be expected to use this weight to pull for your org in terms of combat. Am I getting this right, so far?
So...yeah, do that, keep doing what you're doing as an RP demigod. @Celina really has the right of it. I'm not sure what the eventual goal is for the discussion, Ascendancy is a mechanical concept built around power-play. Do you want that to change? If so, how?
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
It was actually my understanding of @Riluna's understanding. Mine is primarily that they're combatants that we spend a bunch of power on to make it easier for them to do certain combatant things and well... make them feel a level of obligation to do so. I believe the romanticised vision of it was why she brought them into the discussion, that others rp actions towards them supported the view that rp and pk were inherently linked but perhaps aren't as much now.
For me, I can already generally sit Saran down somewhere, ramble for a bit, and often have anything that comes to mind be taken as lore, I've been able to do that for a few rl years now which is a nice place to be and I'm trying to add to that. I've long given up on the concept of ascendant for Saran and it's not a thing that I'd really be interested in unless a change was made.
Sure, if you took out the domoth benefits and just made everyone equal, then maybe allowed Ascendants to form cults without a god and perhaps have some mechanic tied into that like MKO has where you can submit a request to the admin for something, then it's starting to get to the point where it's becoming more interesting to me. But I also highly doubt that's a thing that would ever happen.
Great, more comparisons to other games to attempt to justify points.
"If Lusternia were more like MKO, I'd play it so much more and work so much harder!"
But if that's the case, why not just go play MKO?
We're not MKO, we're not Achaea, we're not Aetolia, we're Lusternia. Sure there are things we can improve, but you can't really just say 'if we did it like this game did' because it isn't a fair comparison.
From what it appears to me, people just want combat abilities completely separated from VA, so they can continue to play the way they want to play, but have a chance at achieving this status.
I'd like to submit that VA should be a combination of RP/PK and everything else. As has been said, they are the epitome of an org, the highest achievement, and they have a wide varying role due to their limited number (realistically, you can have 3 at any given time). Thus, they need to be capable in many fields, and not just a sole side. How is an RP VA suppose to rally their org for a revolt (peaced or non-peaced), or a domoth, or a flare, or some event that requires rallying if they don't understand how said things work? If they don't have a least a fundamental grasp on these events, how are they really going to live up to your expectations that have been pretty clearly stated?
It seems that you want them to be this beacon of hope and leadership, but then lambast that there are certain requirements to make sure they -can- be this beacon.
Yes, because they aren't direct comparisons, for all their similarities, they are in fact different. So just using certain points without including the rest of the context doesn't make them valid points.
It's like I told you that a study about people that ate 5 chocolate bars daily losing weight consistently, but neglected to tell you they were going to the gym twice daily.
That explains why I'm not losing weight. I knew this diet was too good to be true.
8
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I think the conversation has strayed away from what I was trying to get at. I don't mind that VA is pretty much all about combat benefits, and I don't want to be a VA. I just think it's odd when people try to argue that it's not.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Great, more comparisons to other games to attempt to justify points.
"If Lusternia were more like MKO, I'd play it so much more and work so much harder!"
But if that's the case, why not just go play MKO?
We're not MKO, we're not Achaea, we're not Aetolia, we're Lusternia. Sure there are things we can improve, but you can't really just say 'if we did it like this game did' because it isn't a fair comparison.
From what it appears to me, people just want combat abilities completely separated from VA, so they can continue to play the way they want to play, but have a chance at achieving this status.
I'd like to submit that VA should be a combination of RP/PK and everything else. As has been said, they are the epitome of an org, the highest achievement, and they have a wide varying role due to their limited number (realistically, you can have 3 at any given time). Thus, they need to be capable in many fields, and not just a sole side. How is an RP VA suppose to rally their org for a revolt (peaced or non-peaced), or a domoth, or a flare, or some event that requires rallying if they don't understand how said things work? If they don't have a least a fundamental grasp on these events, how are they really going to live up to your expectations that have been pretty clearly stated?
It seems that you want them to be this beacon of hope and leadership, but then lambast that there are certain requirements to make sure they -can- be this beacon.
I personally haven't actually cared about ascension for years now, when asked if I would change it I offered rather off-hand comments about what would make it more interesting to me. I don't expect any change, I'm not actually planning on flooding the forums, ideas list, or support inbox with requests for ascendants to change in anyway. I merely have what I am allowed to have, my own opinion on them.
And yes... I actually do play MKO, as well as Achaea from time to time, as I've played Imperian, and Aetolia. I actually came across from the Discworld mud and before that I played GRAAL online. I also often disappear from here because I'm playing some other MMO (Skyforge, GW2, Dragons Dogma Online, FFXIV, Rift, Tera... I can go on).
Lusternia is Lusternia, it will always have it's unique flavour and every game has their quirks and identity. Sometimes other games have interesting ideas or have learned valuable lessons, so it shouldn't be taboo to bring them up.
So, I've only just turned back up after a hiatus, but I'd like to weigh in on this, if I may.
First, I love RP and despite being horrible at it I (usually) enjoy PK too.
But, personally, I'd love to see more RP-style conflict. Now, to clarify I don't mean RP driven PK necessarily, but something more in line with this sort of example:
Hallifax, being the dirty, sneaking, freedom-hating, science-loving pigeons they are decide one day they've got a great idea for how to stick it to the kind, peace-loving Gaudiguchians. (Because Hallifax is evil like that). They're going to science up, using their time magicks and crystal doodads, a time bomb, slip it into Gaudiguch and set it off to freeze the city in time for a while. Maybe Gaudiguch will come to its senses and capitulate after coming around a few years later, who knows how they think up there the air's thin.
So, while the Institute figures out a way to make time explode in a local area, the Sentinels are poking about Gaudiguch, looking for the best way to get a presumambly large crystal thing into Gaudiguch without any notice, trying to figure out where would be the best place to put it, etc etc. Perhaps the Symphonium artists are working with the Institute to disguise the thing as a giant dragon statue, given to Gaudiguch as a gift, to make it seem less conspicuous. (Because Gaudiguch is full of lovely innocent people who will take a gift at face value.)
Anyway, rather than go on about all the possibilities, I'll come around to my point.
The idea behind having things like this is that it 1) Is RP-driven, which gives the people who are looking to get involved in Hallifax's ongoing war with Gaudiguch, but don't want to get involved in the normal outlets of conflict, like raids, revolts, wildnodes and so on a chance to do so. I don't find it hard to believe that an Institute Researcher who wants to help Hallifax, but not get into combat, would take much convincing to start looking at how "crystals from the Continuum Spheres could be charged with aeonic energy to disrupt temporal flows in a local area".
2) The people who like PK have an excuse to PK now. I feel fairly confident in saying that having something nasty and time-related go up in Gaudiguch would cause it's more violent minded citizens to want to start hunting down people responsible, or at least put the screws to Hallifax. Which in turn gives Hallifax's fighters a chance to step out and get bloody.
3) It feels a bit more "Organic." And what I mean by that is that it fits well with the Gaudiguch-Hallifax conflict and would feel like it truly was part of it, and would have something of a lasting effect. (Certainly Gaudiguch wouldn't be accepting any crystal statues from Hallifax for the foreseeable future, by any means.) Rather than the small skirmishes which take place at the moment, and the revolts, aetherflares, wildnodes, which are absolutely great for sparking the rivalry between the two cities, but never feel like any substantial effect is made, regardless of the outcome.
Obviously, though, this would involve a lot support from Admin, and I appreciate that They're all busy making other wonderful things for us, and real lives and so on. There are also probably all sorts of other considerations too which haven't even entered my mind.
Just my 10c
With an exasperated sigh, you say, "One moment please, I'm threatening a muffin in a box!"
maybe we as a community can sit down to come up the etiquette covering when and where it is okay to PK someone. When PK is part of RP and when is it not?
Comments
"The beauteous craftsmanship of Spirit Warden Xenthos An'Ryshe, the Ebon Strategist radiates throughout it." But when I first used it (testing it by creating artisan items in my manse), the power didn't even work. It does now at least! I know at least one of the newer Ascendants used it for a couple of items, but the RP powers tend to be less desired than the others.
I'd use that one more if the weight was lower / none, because I like it, but not enough for 15 weight worth of powers.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
So...yeah, do that, keep doing what you're doing as an RP demigod. @Celina really has the right of it. I'm not sure what the eventual goal is for the discussion, Ascendancy is a mechanical concept built around power-play. Do you want that to change? If so, how?
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First, I love RP and despite being horrible at it I (usually) enjoy PK too.
But, personally, I'd love to see more RP-style conflict. Now, to clarify I don't mean RP driven PK necessarily, but something more in line with this sort of example:
Hallifax, being the dirty, sneaking, freedom-hating, science-loving pigeons they are decide one day they've got a great idea for how to stick it to the kind, peace-loving Gaudiguchians. (Because Hallifax is evil like that). They're going to science up, using their time magicks and crystal doodads, a time bomb, slip it into Gaudiguch and set it off to freeze the city in time for a while. Maybe Gaudiguch will come to its senses and capitulate after coming around a few years later, who knows how they think up there the air's thin.
So, while the Institute figures out a way to make time explode in a local area, the Sentinels are poking about Gaudiguch, looking for the best way to get a presumambly large crystal thing into Gaudiguch without any notice, trying to figure out where would be the best place to put it, etc etc. Perhaps the Symphonium artists are working with the Institute to disguise the thing as a giant dragon statue, given to Gaudiguch as a gift, to make it seem less conspicuous. (Because Gaudiguch is full of lovely innocent people who will take a gift at face value.)
Anyway, rather than go on about all the possibilities, I'll come around to my point.
The idea behind having things like this is that it 1) Is RP-driven, which gives the people who are looking to get involved in Hallifax's ongoing war with Gaudiguch, but don't want to get involved in the normal outlets of conflict, like raids, revolts, wildnodes and so on a chance to do so. I don't find it hard to believe that an Institute Researcher who wants to help Hallifax, but not get into combat, would take much convincing to start looking at how "crystals from the Continuum Spheres could be charged with aeonic energy to disrupt temporal flows in a local area".
2) The people who like PK have an excuse to PK now. I feel fairly confident in saying that having something nasty and time-related go up in Gaudiguch would cause it's more violent minded citizens to want to start hunting down people responsible, or at least put the screws to Hallifax. Which in turn gives Hallifax's fighters a chance to step out and get bloody.
3) It feels a bit more "Organic." And what I mean by that is that it fits well with the Gaudiguch-Hallifax conflict and would feel like it truly was part of it, and would have something of a lasting effect. (Certainly Gaudiguch wouldn't be accepting any crystal statues from Hallifax for the foreseeable future, by any means.) Rather than the small skirmishes which take place at the moment, and the revolts, aetherflares, wildnodes, which are absolutely great for sparking the rivalry between the two cities, but never feel like any substantial effect is made, regardless of the outcome.
Obviously, though, this would involve a lot support from Admin, and I appreciate that They're all busy making other wonderful things for us, and real lives and so on. There are also probably all sorts of other considerations too which haven't even entered my mind.
Just my 10c
It might be quite long and get into specific minutiae, but it's necessary.