saying things like this implies we know it. We don't know how @Jadice feels about other gods and orgs.
I was actually just taking a guess at how Jadice would feel. I was actually surprised when she came out as anti-Mysrai in the news too. :P I just wanted to illustrate that orgs, including Hallifax, also have monolithic characters tied to their identities that they can also that RP nods from as far as how they feel about other orgs.
Can you two please change your avatars? I can't tell you apart. :P
And lose having the face of the Disagree button? Never. You don't change such things when you have luck give them to you.
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Hallifaxians sure are a quibbling bunch. If you're arguing the validity of each of his individual bullet points, you missed his point entirely. He was demonstrating perspective.
It can be easy to forget, since his unsolicited chattiness has caused most of us to treat him like a senile old uncle, but Fraesic is kind of a big deal. His opinions are almost certain to be relevant, considering how tied to the organization he is.
That perspective doesn't necessarily bear itself out from the player standpoint.
Sure, you have the ability to disagree, but my point is that just because you don't personally agree, doesn't mean you can totally discard its existence as a prevalent point of view. Those dumb little guardian blurbs are a reflection of what the organization's general opinions of the other organizations are, and they're almost certainly what the majority of the denizen populace probably believes. That means something to me, at least!
Has Fraesic changed the way that players in Hallifax (as a group) have made alliances? I ask because I am not a member of the Board of Directors, but my impression is that the answer is no. Likewise, if Fraesic's advice were to (in the style of @Morbo) avow all player alliances and fight Gaudiguch (and their allies) alone, would that be a persuasive argument among the Board of Directors?
EDIT: Actually, nevermind. This is not really a germane thread of conversation. I stand by my previous statement that the way the game is laid out right now precludes orgs 'sticking it out alone' from a practical player standpoint, and that unless something dramatic is done, there isn't any compelling reason for players to throw aside alliances in general. The most obvious way to do that is to somehow condense orgs. Having NPCs (or Gods) rail against current allies or whatever will probably not work.
Enyalida, you're arguing about a point I haven't made and I don't think anyone else has made it. My point is that the game provides Hallifax (and all orgs) plenty of lore, historical, and/or ideological reasons to not like other orgs. No one has advocated that all orgs go it alone or that no organization is never allowed ally with any other organization due to RP.
We don't actually have any reason to dislike each other or anyone else inherently in our RP.
That's not event remotely true, unless you're solely referring to the RP that players invent for themselves.
I suppose more what I mean is that as an organization we seem to have more leeway to disregard what might have happened in the past because it's logical to move past previous transgressions and holding onto grudges would be petty and a lower emotion.
I am not at all complaining about how it's setup, I actually quite like that we have a good reason to be at war with any specific group and we have a valid reason to not be at war with anyone also.
However, I think most orgs could find room in their RP to do the same, however, Celest/Mag have to battle over the sea for their epic, Glom/Seren over the neutral fae.
Hallifax/Gaudi never really got to the structured posturing against each other phase of development I think. The hand quest is pretty rarely done between the two, and it only temporarily prevents the other side from doing it, and even if you tried to constantly block the otherside from completing it, it'd be VERY difficult to maintain.
So whereas the other orgs have some type of resource scarcity (doing this helps our nation, and hurts the enemy), Hallifax/Gaudi don't really have that and has lead to them not hating each other as much as would be natural if we were directly competing over some common resource.
Congratulations! By order of Newt Blasterson, you've been named a Master of the Aetherways! 2015/12/09 23:54:29 - Pejat drained 2000000 power to raise Davos as a Vernal Ascendant. You use 80,000,000 of your divine essence. You gain BeauteousThought as a supernumerary power.
I feel like to your point about Hallifax and Gaudi, it has a lot to do with the fact that our RP really doesn't restrict us from doing what is reasonable or beneficial.
This is the context @Davos had when he said we can ally with anyone. I think most of Hallifax thinks inline with Fraesic (Pejat does, except towards Gaudiguch), but once we enter into a formal contract we have every reason (RP wise) to fulfill it.
As for 2v2v2, I would love that. Who wants to be our bff!
For Mister Zvoltz, Pejat has been terminated by the Replicant Dynodeon.
Hallifax/Gaudi never really got to the structured posturing against each other phase of development I think. The hand quest is pretty rarely done between the two, and it only temporarily prevents the other side from doing it, and even if you tried to constantly block the otherside from completing it, it'd be VERY difficult to maintain.
Not to mention that it's actually easier to take turns with the Hand quest, since unlike the sea battle, there's no real "doom and gloom" feeling with our epic quest. Plus, no matter who wins, everyone gets a power node to draw from.
One of the things that has always separated the Gaudiguch-Hallifax conflict from Celest-Magnagora and Serenwilde-Glomdoring is that there's no real 'physical' thing we're fighting for. For the former pair, it's Light vs. Taint, and the latter, it's Purity (?) vs. Wyrd. There are actual, tangible things that the orgs rally around. It's very visible when their respective melders spread their demesnes. Whereas with Gaudiguch and Hallifax... ooo, a Pyro demesne. So hot, much wow.
The conflict between Gaudiguch and Hallifax is more on the ideological side: chaos and liberty against harmony and bureaucracy. Or something. They're very nebulous concepts and goals, which, in turn, allows both cities a little more leeway than the first four orgs in selecting the means to their respective ends.
Yay Gaudiguch, yay Hallifax.. Booze and tea go well together.
I always saw Hallifax and Gaudiguch as both very similar, just with different means to the same end. Whereas Hallifax would use science and due process to achieve knowledge, Gaudiguch might go get baked and meander its way to a conclusion that might be the exact same. We both eschew Supernal/Demon Lord worship in favour of enlightenment. The spheres/pots aren't really special to us.
Basically, if there were no @Mysrai and all the drama that follows the Thousandfold, Hallifax and Gaudiguch would be best friends, imho.
Well, Hallifax (and everyone else) having reason to fight everyone else works the other way, too. Everyone has at least some reason to ally with everyone else.
Sure, the forests are the savage enemies of civilization that want to return us to barbarity. But everyone needs dumb muscle, and better that they die for us than we die for us.
Celest and Magnagora? Their religious fanaticism is dangerous. So is the fact that they embrace a hereditary (rather than meritocratic) system of nobility. But they are still on team civilization against the forests, and they aren't really opposed to the Hallifaxian way of life, either. They're kind of in conflict, but not so much that they can't coexist. So realpolitik can determine our alliances with them, and at a personal level individuals can get along great. Which is wonderful for commerce and diplomacy.
Gaudiguch? Sure, they claim to be all about individual liberty and personal enlightenment and all that. But is Hallifax really that different? We oppress the lower castes with laws and bureaucracy, Gaudiguch does drugs and circuses to help keep the secret societies in power. They seek truth through meditation, we seek it through investigation. They cultivate self-control to help in that search for truth, and so does Hallifax. They ultimately take their cues from their enlightened sages, we take ours from the highest castes. In both cases, that's rule by intellectuals. A Halli/Gaudi alliance could absolutely exist in good faith on the basis of secular intellectualism opposing the religious structures that are present in every other org.
It seems to me that Hallifax and Gaudiguch are de facto very similar. They use different methods, but the end results tend to be more or less the same. So pretty similar to Red Scare America and the Soviet Union. Which is appropriate, and is why I think they should be totally fine with a cold war and even alliances against outside forces. They probably can't be friends due to their cultural differences, but they'd both probably be happier with a war of commerce and propaganda than a shooting war.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
So is the fact that they embrace a hereditary (rather than meritocratic) system of nobility.
Disagreement on the grounds that postlapsarian noble houses spent like half their time throwing useless members into the gutter, undercity, and secluded mountain complexes.
Also, blackened monoliths rising into smog beneath a hidden sky is a great aesthetic.
I find current politics frustrating. Too much peace is not a good thing. Seren seems to have found itself in a position where its allies are friends with Glomdoring and so are reluctant to assist Seren against them, which makes things awkward. Though Seren will still help their allies to fight Magnagora, because if they didn't, who else are they going to fight?
I'm no combatant, though I'd like to practice more and get into it. Which would be easier if there was less complex 'we're friends with everyone or our friends are their friends so probably shouldn't fight those guys or our friends might be annoyed'...bleh. Less love more hate plz.
...You mentioned the gods in Achaea took steps to insure independence. I hadn't really heard about that, what happened there?
There were several IG events orchestrated by the administration in order to split up or at least fracture some of the long-standing alliances in Achaea where prior to the events it basically came to East (Shallam and Eleusis) versus West (Ashtan and Mhaldor). So little things like Golgotha disrupting business as usual in Mhaldor and occultism being banned as an end result, Mhaldor raiding Ashtan to retrieve a forge from before the pre-House days per orders from Sartan/Shaitan/Apples, Shallam and its assorted zealots burning heretical objects and, on occasion, trees, and etc. It provided an IC reason to dislike your neighbors to an extent, although those can be handwaved away or overlooked in times of need (or profit).
I find current politics frustrating. Too much peace is not a good thing. Seren seems to have found itself in a position where its allies are friends with Glomdoring and so are reluctant to assist Seren against them, which makes things awkward. Though Seren will still help their allies to fight Magnagora, because if they didn't, who else are they going to fight?
I'm no combatant, though I'd like to practice more and get into it. Which would be easier if there was less complex 'we're friends with everyone or our friends are their friends so probably shouldn't fight those guys or our friends might be annoyed'...bleh. Less love more hate plz.
It is frustrating. I'm so tired of having the same argument in-character, too. The other day, or week ago or something, and @Leolamins ran in to raid Serenwilde alone, I wanted to help. Except that @Taevyn showed up, and I had literally just gotten done trying to help Celest with something else, so... screw that. Then @Synkarin came over and his song was passively hitting me... so basically I went back to Glom to do the equivalent of cry about how I don't know who my allies are in that situation.
...But apparently I'm also one of the "non-pkers" who's causing this problem in the first place. And the only solution offered(in game) is X alliance versus Y alliance, where the "pkers" are claiming they want X alliance and also claiming the "rpers" want Y alliance... but no one actually asked how anyone else viewed this. From what I remember, there were weeks of absolute silence with no one doing a damn thing about anything or talking to each other, then one day... "we're changing alliances so shut up and go along with it."
...Right. I didn't want to be best friends with Serenwilde, either. I thought it was better when we were fighting again, until Celest got involved, and then we had alliance BS to deal with. But that's still less obnoxious than forcing this sudden change out of nowhere.
The revolts earlier are a perfect example why- I was the only one around from Glom, seemingly. Hallifax/Celest vs Gaudiguch, Serenwilde vs Magnagora. Whose side should I have taken to make the "pk faction" happy? Nothing's been decided yet officially. Am I supposed to just do nothing and not have fun because there's pkers who might get upset about it later? ...wow, that's completely fair and definitely makes me want to keep playing, you know? Take the side of people that are currently hunting me over that quest? Claim both villages for Glomdoring all by myself?
If there's a solution the way things currently are, I don't see it. I know what my solution is, and I just dgaf what the "pkers" want to do afterwards.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
Well, no bitterness there lol.
I will say that I don't think Celina of all people is to blame even though she is the loud and obnoxious voice of pk.
Dang right I'm bitter. We had these arguments before. For weeks. Now we get to do it again? And I don't blame @Celina, she's just the most satisfying person to argue with about it.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
@Eodh Serenwilde doesn't really have a concrete thing it fights for, and I think your point about nebulous goals is accurate.
Yes, we do. It's just not what you fight for. Serenwilde fights to preserve, to reverse corruption, and to roll back the damage done by everyone else.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I always felt like Serenwilde should have eternal hatred for Magnagora and Celest. The former because Taint the, latter for being the root cause of the Taint and the fact their actions caused an entire commune to cut itself out of existence. As much as people like to live by the 'never forget, never forgive' mantra, it always just seemed silly that you guys ever allied with either of us.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I always felt like Serenwilde should have eternal hatred for Magnagora and Celest. The former because Taint the, latter for being the root cause of the Taint and the fact their actions caused an entire commune to cut itself out of existence. As much as people like to live by the 'never forget, never forgive' mantra, it always just seemed silly that you guys ever allied with either of us.
That's what this thread is arguing, though. That every org can overcome its hatred to enter in an alliance if it has too. When Serenwilde has been allied with Magnagora, it's always been with a bitter taste, but it's been done because the alliance was the only way we could survive.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Historically speaking (as in the modern game history), there have (almost) always been two big alliances between orgs in the game (2v2, 3v3 after Gaudiguch and Hallifax came back), and the two "direct opposite" orgs choose one side or the other. Example: Celest-Hallifax-Glomdoring vs Magnagora-Gaudiguch-Serenwilde, Celest-Gaudiguch-Glomdoring vs Magnagora-Hallifax-Serenwilde, Celenwilde vs Magnadoring, etc. etc. The only exception that stands out was the hai'Gloh Zemordia/Xion Initiative event, where we saw the cities Celest and Magnagora against the communes Serenwilde and Glomdoring (no Hallifax and Gaudiguch yet).
Right now, the political landscape looks something like Gaudiguch-Magnagora, Celest-Hallifax, then Serenwilde, and Glomdoring. The four cities have chosen sides, mostly. It's the communes who have to decide where they want to go (or conversely, the cities to decide who they want to get).
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited October 2015
@Kethaera: You and I must play different games. There has been drama over the Hallidoring alliance/treaty/relationship/it's complicated stuff for RL months and months. It's not as if you don't know this, it's not as if you specifically weren't sticking your nose in Gaudi/Mag business to defend Hallifax quite some time ago. You've definitely been pushing one specific perspective the entire time, going so far as to defend Hallifax against Gaudiguch/Mag. I mean, go forth, have fun, do whatever makes you enjoy the game but this whole bewilderment schtick doesn't make a lot of sense when we both know you've been physically involved, elbow deep in the mess for way longer than Salome's post.
The irony of this WHOLE SITUATION is that leading up to it, there were people (me) loudly warning other people (the Court, Glomdoring, the forums) that if Glom signed on with Hallifax/Celest, things were going to be very, very boring for everyone involved. This was not a surprise, unforseen result.
But I think the ultimate issue is what was stated. IDGAF what the PKers want. We're going to create alliances and you have to do the heavy lifting, so deal with it. However, if you try to do the same to us, or do things and tell us to deal with it, it's unfair. One way street.
Comments
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
It can be easy to forget, since his unsolicited chattiness has caused most of us to treat him like a senile old uncle, but Fraesic is kind of a big deal. His opinions are almost certain to be relevant, considering how tied to the organization he is.
I am not at all complaining about how it's setup, I actually quite like that we have a good reason to be at war with any specific group and we have a valid reason to not be at war with anyone also.
However, I think most orgs could find room in their RP to do the same, however, Celest/Mag have to battle over the sea for their epic, Glom/Seren over the neutral fae.
Hallifax/Gaudi never really got to the structured posturing against each other phase of development I think. The hand quest is pretty rarely done between the two, and it only temporarily prevents the other side from doing it, and even if you tried to constantly block the otherside from completing it, it'd be VERY difficult to maintain.
So whereas the other orgs have some type of resource scarcity (doing this helps our nation, and hurts the enemy), Hallifax/Gaudi don't really have that and has lead to them not hating each other as much as would be natural if we were directly competing over some common resource.
2015/12/09 23:54:29 - Pejat drained 2000000 power to raise Davos as a Vernal Ascendant.
You use 80,000,000 of your divine essence. You gain BeauteousThought as a supernumerary power.
Basically, if there were no @Mysrai and all the drama that follows the Thousandfold, Hallifax and Gaudiguch would be best friends, imho.
Sure, the forests are the savage enemies of civilization that want to return us to barbarity. But everyone needs dumb muscle, and better that they die for us than we die for us.
Celest and Magnagora? Their religious fanaticism is dangerous. So is the fact that they embrace a hereditary (rather than meritocratic) system of nobility. But they are still on team civilization against the forests, and they aren't really opposed to the Hallifaxian way of life, either. They're kind of in conflict, but not so much that they can't coexist. So realpolitik can determine our alliances with them, and at a personal level individuals can get along great. Which is wonderful for commerce and diplomacy.
Gaudiguch? Sure, they claim to be all about individual liberty and personal enlightenment and all that. But is Hallifax really that different? We oppress the lower castes with laws and bureaucracy, Gaudiguch does drugs and circuses to help keep the secret societies in power. They seek truth through meditation, we seek it through investigation. They cultivate self-control to help in that search for truth, and so does Hallifax. They ultimately take their cues from their enlightened sages, we take ours from the highest castes. In both cases, that's rule by intellectuals. A Halli/Gaudi alliance could absolutely exist in good faith on the basis of secular intellectualism opposing the religious structures that are present in every other org.
It seems to me that Hallifax and Gaudiguch are de facto very similar. They use different methods, but the end results tend to be more or less the same. So pretty similar to Red Scare America and the Soviet Union. Which is appropriate, and is why I think they should be totally fine with a cold war and even alliances against outside forces. They probably can't be friends due to their cultural differences, but they'd both probably be happier with a war of commerce and propaganda than a shooting war.
Also, blackened monoliths rising into smog beneath a hidden sky is a great aesthetic.
I will say that I don't think Celina of all people is to blame even though she is the loud and obnoxious voice of pk.