Guild Overhaul

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  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice
    So. What hapens to Guild Honor, @Zvoltz? I hate the idea of the Shadowdancers getting dissolved. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. 

    Can we have The Shadowdancers and Friends faction?
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Siam said:
    So. What hapens to Guild Honor, @Zvoltz? I hate the idea of the Shadowdancers getting dissolved. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. 

    Can we have The Shadowdancers and Friends faction?
    My initial reaction is the same way, Siam. But even so... I look through the guild logs, and it's almost 6 straight days of no activity. No novices coming out of the Portal. No one around to do my beloved vision quests with, no one to build any sort of relationship with, barely. I would love to see the Serenguard remain intact, and I hope that in the transition, enough flavor and lore remains that I don't feel like I've lost everything I built. But... I think the admin are right. Something has to give. I don't have to like it, but it looks like we have to accept the reality that we must do something.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice
    edited December 2015
    I will likely leave. IDK.

    edit:

    Gosh, what a basic thing to say, Siam. But yes, the very concrete guild system+identity in Lusternia is part of what made me stay in the first place.
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • Could we not spam, thanks.

    It's almost as bad as your stagnant deal.
    image
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice
    Stagnant deal? I don't get you. Anyway,

    We can just lump all the people who want to destroy the guild system into their own factions. Screw guild lore and identity!
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk
    Everiine said:
    Siam said:
    So. What hapens to Guild Honor, @Zvoltz? I hate the idea of the Shadowdancers getting dissolved. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. 

    Can we have The Shadowdancers and Friends faction?
    My initial reaction is the same way, Siam. But even so... I look through the guild logs, and it's almost 6 straight days of no activity. No novices coming out of the Portal. No one around to do my beloved vision quests with, no one to build any sort of relationship with, barely. I would love to see the Serenguard remain intact, and I hope that in the transition, enough flavor and lore remains that I don't feel like I've lost everything I built. But... I think the admin are right. Something has to give. I don't have to like it, but it looks like we have to accept the reality that we must do something.
    So what will happen when its six days of no activity for your faction? Dissolve Lusternia?

    This feels like changing for the sake of changing.
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Siam said:
    Stagnant deal? I don't get you. Anyway,

    We can just lump all the people who want to destroy the guild system into their own factions. Screw guild lore and identity!
    He's talking about your forum title and signature, and saying that they are nearly as annoying as spamming a thread.
    image
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Silvanus said:
    Everiine said:
    Siam said:
    So. What hapens to Guild Honor, @Zvoltz? I hate the idea of the Shadowdancers getting dissolved. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. 

    Can we have The Shadowdancers and Friends faction?
    My initial reaction is the same way, Siam. But even so... I look through the guild logs, and it's almost 6 straight days of no activity. No novices coming out of the Portal. No one around to do my beloved vision quests with, no one to build any sort of relationship with, barely. I would love to see the Serenguard remain intact, and I hope that in the transition, enough flavor and lore remains that I don't feel like I've lost everything I built. But... I think the admin are right. Something has to give. I don't have to like it, but it looks like we have to accept the reality that we must do something.
    So what will happen when its six days of no activity for your faction? Dissolve Lusternia?

    This feels like changing for the sake of changing.
    No. I'm just saying, I understand why things might need to change. Believe you me, I'll be fighting to keep every scrap of Serenguard lore and identity that I've built over the last 10 years intact, because I am damn emotionally invested in every piece.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice
    Xenthos said:
    Siam said:
    Stagnant deal? I don't get you. Anyway,

    We can just lump all the people who want to destroy the guild system into their own factions. Screw guild lore and identity!
    He's talking about your forum title and signature, and saying that they are nearly as annoying as spamming a thread.
    Can always turn off signatures! I can also provide instructions if needed. ;)
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord

    Siam said:
    Xenthos said:
    Siam said:
    Stagnant deal? I don't get you. Anyway,

    We can just lump all the people who want to destroy the guild system into their own factions. Screw guild lore and identity!
    He's talking about your forum title and signature, and saying that they are nearly as annoying as spamming a thread.
    Can always turn off signatures! I can also provide instructions if needed. ;)
    Or you could show some maturity.  I'm not going to go turning off everyone else's signatures because a single individual decided to throw a tantrum, and I suspect that others are in the same boat.

    As far as this idea goes and a suggestion that was made earlier: I do not like the idea of "Night / Crow / Wyrd" as factions for Glomdoring.  The Wyrd is, theoretically, supposed to be embraced by everyone.  It's the uniting organization concept.  Splitting that out into something for one faction to aggressively support doesn't make sense to me.
    image
  • I feel like... before you take on a skill set, you should have to do some sort of quest or task of some sort that makes it clear that you understand what's behind it. Nothing terribly difficult, I don't think, but something memorable. Why this power was developed. A sense of the lore behind it. Take the Aquamancers, for instance- dedicated to the powers of Water, they developed the Pool of Stars in antiquity, and ended up pioneering planar travel in their quest for understanding and power. Piercing the planes, Aquamancy's disciplines led into the discovery of Holy Celestia and the development of Celestialism, and from there, the Paladins... and the Old Empire.
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice
    Xenthos said:

    Siam said:
    Xenthos said:
    Siam said:
    Stagnant deal? I don't get you. Anyway,

    We can just lump all the people who want to destroy the guild system into their own factions. Screw guild lore and identity!
    He's talking about your forum title and signature, and saying that they are nearly as annoying as spamming a thread.
    Can always turn off signatures! I can also provide instructions if needed. ;)
    Or you could show some maturity.  I'm not going to go turning off everyone else's signatures because a single individual decided to throw a tantrum, and I suspect that others are in the same boat.

    As far as this idea goes and a suggestion that was made earlier: I do not like the idea of "Night / Crow / Wyrd" as factions for Glomdoring.  The Wyrd is, theoretically, supposed to be embraced by everyone.  It's the uniting organization concept.  Splitting that out into something for one faction to aggressively support doesn't make sense to me.
    Ah, but I like my daily dose of spite. The signature's here to stay. :)
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • Tridemon said:
    I feel like... before you take on a skill set, you should have to do some sort of quest or task of some sort that makes it clear that you understand what's behind it. Nothing terribly difficult, I don't think, but something memorable. Why this power was developed. A sense of the lore behind it. Take the Aquamancers, for instance- dedicated to the powers of Water, they developed the Pool of Stars in antiquity, and ended up pioneering planar travel in their quest for understanding and power. Piercing the planes, Aquamancy's disciplines led into the discovery of Holy Celestia and the development of Celestialism, and from there, the Paladins... and the Old Empire.
    You don't have to do that before you can join the current guilds. I'm not sure why that can't be incorporated into the factions if people feel it is important to know.

  • In the original polling thread where this idea was thrown about, I voted No. I have a lot of personal capital invested in the Tahtetso guild, notwithstanding that Havastus was just recently elected Administrator of the guild. While our population is small, it's not uncommon to have ~5 people online at the same time. Sure, that's a far cry of what it was when I first created this character, but it's better than the Cantors at the very least.

    However, the discussion that this idea has generated has succeeded in changing my mind.

    I like the idea of reducing the number of guilds/factions/whatever we're going to call them from the current 4/5 to 3, with each being open to all org-specific classes and being based on RP instead of mechanics. The faction names that Iytha put forth are also pretty cool sounding as well!

    While I know that the player-to-guild ratio is low, and that the low population isn't primarily the fault of too many guilds, having a more concentrated player base will be a great benefit for those who wish to advance within their faction. Sure, low faction population isn't the primary reason for low overall game population, but concentrating those of us that are left will be helpful.

    Anyhow, with that aside, I had a thought regarding how to implement this change (should it indeed go forth) in a way that's not "the Soulless ate my guild!"

    Each guild has their own NPC tutor that specializes in teaching their guild's specific skills. What if those tutors decided that they themselves wanted to learn skills that don't belong to their class? Their students are able to skillflex, so why can't they? Thus, they leave their guildhalls and seek out another (such as Master Setmos wanting to learn more about Celestia and all that the Celestines teach, or whatever). After going about and mingling with the other tutors, they discover that they quite like hanging out together, and don't want to go back into solitude within their guild hall. Thus, the tutors band together and ask their City/Commune leadership and Divine Patrons to dissolve the guilds and replace them with factions (or whatever the community decides the name should be). Perhaps the current Tutors can have their own denizen NPC "TA's" exist within the new faction halls, which would be an in character way of explaining how the new factions can facilitate supporting each class.

  • Xenthos said:
    PS: Combining Magnagora and Glomdoring would create lots and lots of drama.

    I am not sure you want that kind of drama.

    (I didn't mention it when I first read that, but now that you have brought it up again...)

    As should combining Serenwilde and the city that burned a hole through them.

    Everiine said:
    Daraius said:
    One thing I thought Achaea got right with their House system was customizable leadership. Every House had a leader and a Head of Newcomers (potentially not applicable here if the Embassy is taking over). But the HL could also set up to five additional positions, name them, imbue them with authorities from a pool of privs, and each position could have its own set of aides. These could be adjusted based on the needs and flavor of each house without any need for admin approval.
    I'm in favour of this, if this is something that can be done with the approval of the patron. I dont' want to see all of the leadership positions and their names change every time a new leader comes to power. People already try to do that with a guild's and org's RP, let's not encourage it. If it needs patron approval, at least then there's that layer of "Yeah, this is needed," or "No, you're being dumb".
    Customisation would be really nice, I think it would help enhance a different feel for each group. For example, the Moon group could totally have a triumvirate leadership with the leaders chosing amongst themselves for who actually is the big boss. And super like the idea of having the possibility of an appointed office in the guild who has aides but the ability to also have a specific position is good too.
    But yeah, patron approval should be included.




    @Zvoltz regarding what is going to happen to guilds, it would be really nice if something could be done with the guild property. While I understand it would be a lot of work, I think it could be kinda cool if the guild halls could be entered by people who have that class flexed and to gain a class there could be some form of mini-quest involving the hall.
    Like, to get the right to flex Hartstone (if you didn't start off with it) you could have a little quest where you go on a ritual hunt and do a little ritual or the like in the hall of the ancestors (being on the quest would give access) where you commune with the White Hart and he teaches you how to start the path. Then Dain and Wisdom would still be there to teach the Druids and Wildewood.

    The high clan thing would also be interesting, though I'd also like a few extra options for clans. Like a variable number of ranks with the option to either appoint or favour people into them and the ministry style position with aides, mostly because people might like making their own mini-groups but clans feel well mostly ooc right now.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Siam said:
    Xenthos said:

    Siam said:
    Xenthos said:
    Siam said:
    Stagnant deal? I don't get you. Anyway,

    We can just lump all the people who want to destroy the guild system into their own factions. Screw guild lore and identity!
    He's talking about your forum title and signature, and saying that they are nearly as annoying as spamming a thread.
    Can always turn off signatures! I can also provide instructions if needed. ;)
    Or you could show some maturity.  I'm not going to go turning off everyone else's signatures because a single individual decided to throw a tantrum, and I suspect that others are in the same boat.

    As far as this idea goes and a suggestion that was made earlier: I do not like the idea of "Night / Crow / Wyrd" as factions for Glomdoring.  The Wyrd is, theoretically, supposed to be embraced by everyone.  It's the uniting organization concept.  Splitting that out into something for one faction to aggressively support doesn't make sense to me.
    Ah, but I like my daily dose of spite. The signature's here to stay. :)
    All that spite does is breed more spite.  For example, I want to make a lot of comments now about the Shadowdancers being shut down / removed from the game, for no reason than that you do not like the idea-- and that, only because you are being obnoxious on the forums.

    It's nothing but a distraction.  It does you no good, nor does it do any good for anyone else reading any of the threads you post in-- except rub everyone's face in the fact that you're reveling in being spiteful.

    If you want people to take your thoughts on the subject seriously, it would help tremendously to not be undermining your own position by making everyone around you have a strong desire to summarily dismiss what you write.
    image
  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark Australia
    I do think the open classflexing is a good thing. There are definitely positives to the proposal. Change is not always easy to accept, and it's a natural human reaction to freak out at it (which I admit I am doing a lot of on the inside), but generally I think it is needed. It will just take some work to get it done well.

    I'd like to second the notion of keeping the guild halls/property. I don't see a need for them to be nuked, when they can be absorbed into factions (or orgs) or kept as historical monuments to the past that are now open to all those who have learned the skills. Or have them be part of a little flavour quest/lore learning opportunity. Thus the original guild ideals and concepts still exist, without the rigid structure of guilds and isolation.

    I'm probably getting ahead of myself, just sprouting things as they pop into my head.



  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Most GHs these days have some unique little things related to the Guild, right?  The Nekotai have a swamp rat that keeps escaping into Glomdoring-proper somehow (scurrying around the Ravenwood), the Ebonguard have a bunch of symbols of Spirits and a ritual bowl, etc.  That's a significant investment of time and resources, so just destroying it outright isn't a good way to go.

    There absolutely needs to be some way to incorporate / use what the players put into them, whichever way this goes.
    image
  • There's at least one skillset that requires questing in order to acquire- that of the cavalier. Why shouldn't there be something similar in-org for taking on an archetype after you've left being a newbie behind?
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    Zvoltz said:
    Tridemon said:
    I feel like... before you take on a skill set, you should have to do some sort of quest or task of some sort that makes it clear that you understand what's behind it. Nothing terribly difficult, I don't think, but something memorable. Why this power was developed. A sense of the lore behind it. Take the Aquamancers, for instance- dedicated to the powers of Water, they developed the Pool of Stars in antiquity, and ended up pioneering planar travel in their quest for understanding and power. Piercing the planes, Aquamancy's disciplines led into the discovery of Holy Celestia and the development of Celestialism, and from there, the Paladins... and the Old Empire.
    You don't have to do that before you can join the current guilds. I'm not sure why that can't be incorporated into the factions if people feel it is important to know.

    The only time I've really wanted that is with the -woods, because of the lore, because it changes your race, and because it's like the cavalier skillset in that it's an alternative primary. This is a comment unrelated to guild overhauls though :P
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    And Adasser must come along, too! :D
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • edited December 2015
    I can't make any specific promises about what we'll do with things like guild halls, etc., because we're super early in the stage of working this out, and also because I'm not familiar with a lot of the details regarding them in reference to their associated guilds, and also because I'm not really one of the people who will be heavily involved in the RP aspect of factions, but I can say that these sorts of things were things we discussed in particular when trying to put together the factions idea, and we intend to keep everything we can. There will almost certainly be changes to some of these things by the nature of the process, such as parts of guildhalls being reused in faction areas, or made public, or some mysterious third option who knows, but they're not going to be shoved into a ditch and left to rot.
    7c95dbc25a4a9ae292cccb899a49a79b18529207e135ebccd89c0877d386ebea
    ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY GLOW CLOUD.
  • Xenthos said:

    As far as this idea goes and a suggestion that was made earlier: I do not like the idea of "Night / Crow / Wyrd" as factions for Glomdoring.  The Wyrd is, theoretically, supposed to be embraced by everyone.  It's the uniting organization concept.  Splitting that out into something for one faction to aggressively support doesn't make sense to me.
    As far as the Glomdoring "factions" go, I definitely agree that Wyrd should not be demoted a faction-specific concept. Rather, I was imagining for there to be one  "sophisticated" faction which embraces Night/Viravain-like elegance, beauty, cruelty and perfection; one faction that less formal and devoted venerating to all of the more savage spirits of Nature (Crow, but also Scorpion, Wasp, Beetle, Bat, Spider, Snake, etc. and the Oakvine group of anti-Seren ancestors), and one which embodies the rabidly expansionist, conquest centric "Wyrden Supremacy" ideals of Glomdoring. But I'm not sure what you'd call that last one, so I just put "Wyrd".

    Also, RE the Nil Grim Horror, I would be pleased as punch to see it become a Artifact Quest, ala the True Crown or Aestra, but open only to Magnagora. Ditto for the Handmaiden, Shuck, etc.
  • I think it would be a bad idea to base these factions off of player-interests or types of role-play as Zvoltz's top post is suggesting. (Artists/Scholars, Fighters, Bureaucrats).

    It seems like this would pigeon hole players and possibly stifle their exploration other aspects of game-play. Also, you need this mix of different kinds of people to make any org work right.

    One nice thing about guilds is that they are neutral within their orgs. They bind different sorts of people together through the sharing of skills and roleplay. Different people with different interests can expose each other to different things, and that's useful to the game, and to player retention in general. One of the compelling things for me when I started was how insanely 'big' the world is in terms of things to learn and do, the lore, etc. I don't think you would want to make the game seem smaller by starting people with blinders on.

    Also I think "factions" is a not-great name, as it implies divisiveness right out of the gate.


    #NoWireHangersEver

    Vive l'apostrophe!
  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    I don't like guilds going away. I loved the idea of guilds for classes when I first found Achaea. Like Siam, I stuck with Lusternia because it had guilds when Achaea had houses, which I thought were stupid.

    But then I played Warcraft. And a lot of Pathfinder with dice and pencil and paper.

    And...well, you don't need guilds for RP. They're really cool, and I still don't want to see them go.

    But it has to happen.

    One question though - do you have to be in a 'faction'? Is it a requirement to learn skills?

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