Guild Overhaul [Confirmed]

ZvoltzZvoltz Member, Gods Posts: 399 Divine
We have decided to go ahead with the previously mentioned overhaul to guilds: http://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/2282/guild-overhaul/p1

We have not yet set everything in stone as far as how all the mechanics will work, but we received a lot of great ideas from the previous forum thread and are working to incorporate them. We will post specifics once we have things confirmed. The actual overhaul is still a long way off so don't stop doing whatever you are doing with your guilds.

Soon, we will be reaching out to organization leaders (in game) and forming a team for each org to brainstorm and develop ideas for the new Factions (or whatever we end up calling them). Our hope is that by working closely with players in each organization that we can create some truly awesome things!


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Comments

  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 1,847 Transcendent
    I'd only suggest that focus of novices and novice advancements be placed in the Collegium system itself. This would give the collegium more of a feel of 'a learning environment' and allow the guilds to broaden into specific unique qualities, rather than "more novice advancements".
  • YarouYarou Member Posts: 218 Master
    I'm both excited and apprehensive. Here's to hoping this is a change for the better.

  • PhoebusPhoebus tu fui, ego eris. Member Posts: 1,650 Transcendent
    Curious to see how things proceed. Will definitely be watching with cautious optimism despite not really actively playing right now. I will whip you if you make Hallifax's stuff based primarily around castes, I mean it.
  • NyxxNyxx Member Posts: 130 Capable
    Curious but did you guys ever think that Maybe the reason you cant support your playerbase is because oyu have too many GAMES not that you lack the people? seriously? less people play Imperian and Aetolia and MKO (definitely should NOT have been released with our player base) than play lusternia and Achaea and maybe you should cut the other 3 games and just stick with what you have so far been half way decent at rather than screwing everything up like you have with every other major change done to ANY of the games you've all done it too> achaeas house system fucked it up for example.. this is going to be no difference. its not the damn game itself! its the number of games you offer!
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,357 Transcendent
    This thread is not to discuss the idea.  The previous thread was to discuss the idea (there is a helpful link you can follow to post in it if you want).  This thread is informing us that it is happening and that they will be working with us / providing more details.
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  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 1,847 Transcendent
    I definitely approve of cutting MKO. Too small and too late to attract mudders for expanding.
  • NyxxNyxx Member Posts: 130 Capable
    Xenthos said:
    This thread is not to discuss the idea.  The previous thread was to discuss the idea (there is a helpful link you can follow to post in it if you want).  This thread is informing us that it is happening and that they will be working with us / providing more details.
    Yes and they had a poll and everything that ended up being 50/50. half the playerbase wants it and the other half doesnt.. so once again the "other half" that -doesnt- want it to change gets the shit end of the stick. Why do they bother polling us if they don't give a rats ass about the answer? maybe if it was like 10% didnt want it. but this was right down the damned middle. that's HALF their playerbase they are completely ignoring and proving they have NO respect for.
  • SylandraSylandra (title goes here) Member Posts: 3,654 Transcendent
    Sometimes when you're the person in charge you have to make a tough call. Running a game isn't about being popular, it's about putting together the best version of Lusternia that you can. You may have made another choice in this situation, but this is the choice being made. I'd say forming a team of players to assist in this process is far from proving there is no respect for the playerbase; honestly, they could have made changes without consulting us at all.

    Plus I really doubt Estarra could ever pitch to IRE "hey why don't you just cut some other games mine is the coolest one" y'know?
    Fyler said:
    Sylandra has a very signature (and somewhat twisted) sense of humor
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,565 Transcendent
    Actually, that poll was very biased towards one perspective and it included the option to cut cities when (seemingly) most agreed with cutting guilds after some clarification.
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  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 1,847 Transcendent
    I, too, agree with cutting some cities.
  • TwytchTwytch Member Posts: 485 Expert
    edited February 2016
    Just to clarify things that have been said with a bit of an exaggeration, but Aetolia and Lusternia have more or less an equal playerbase, and Imperian bounced back especially after the character retirement thing went in (actually, a number of people from Aetolia retired to Achaea, Imperian, and Lusternia, so this might not be 100% accurate). Achaea is, as usual, high and above the rest.

    edit:

    And chronologically speaking, it's Achaea -> Aetolia -> Imperian -> Lusternia -> MKO. Be careful of calling for a closure of games, since it may very well be us on the chopping block!
    See you in Sapience.
  • NyxxNyxx Member Posts: 130 Capable
    edited February 2016
    Twytch said:
    Just to clarify things that have been said with a bit of an exaggeration, but Aetolia and Lusternia have more or less an equal playerbase, and Imperian bounced back especially after the character retirement thing went in (actually, a number of people from Aetolia retired to Achaea, Imperian, and Lusternia, so this might not be 100% accurate). Achaea is, as usual, high and above the rest.

    edit:

    And chronologically speaking, it's Achaea -> Aetolia -> Imperian -> Lusternia -> MKO. Be careful of calling for a closure of games, since it may very well be us on the chopping block!


    I'll admit I am a bit biased in that I fully believe Lusternia is the "BEST". also I have to agree with Ayisdra.. its not about caring about lsuternia or it's players... its about Money. its always about money its why they keep releasing stupid new crap like curios and ikons and friggin aethergoop to that is comptlely unneccessary because we already had credits and dingbats just to get us to spend more money. Its capitalism baby, they're a company they're never actually going to CARE about us or what we as players want...  if thy did they would have ben focusing on player retention all this time and not just releasing new stuff that we HAVE to spend money on (goop for example cant really be bought in game any way, gotta buy it when it comes on promotion or something or in crates or whaever)

    let me just add something here as I read that afterwards and it sounds a bit crass. obviously i'm a bit upset by this and once again feel like they are ignoring a LARGE amount of their playerbase which as always is compltely unfair but I DO love our admins and allt he things they DO, do for us... Just that there are far better ways to accomplish the goals they are trying to get too and they keep getting more caught up inw hat makes the most money NOT about what brings in the new playrs or retains the old ones. and that is important. great customer service is about KEEPING YOUR CURRENT CUSTOMERS or you can bet they'll enver recommend you to others.
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird Member Posts: 2,637 Transcendent
    If the poll was 50/50 for and against, then yes, they did take the poll into account making the decision. If they decided for it, 50% would say "YOU IGNORED US RAAWWRR!!'. And if they decided not to do it, 50% would say "YOU IGNORED US RAAWWRR!!" Just because the decision was not the one you wanted doesn't mean the poll didn't matter.
    image
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
    NEW Avatar by the amazing Arimisia!
    I'm totally shipping @Eliron and @Everiine now. 
    Daraius said:
    You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

  • NyxxNyxx Member Posts: 130 Capable
    edited February 2016
    Zvoltz said:
    Ayisdra said:
    Sylandra said:
    Sometimes when you're the person in charge you have to make a tough call. Running a game isn't about being popular, it's about putting together the best version of Lusternia that you can. You may have made another choice in this situation, but this is the choice being made. I'd say forming a team of players to assist in this process is far from proving there is no respect for the playerbase; honestly, they could have made changes without consulting us at all.

    Plus I really doubt Estarra could ever pitch to IRE "hey why don't you just cut some other games mine is the coolest one" y'know?

    Let's be real. No decision is about making the best version of Lusternia. All decisions made are about what makes the most money. Having novices come to the game is what causes more money to come in. The fact that sometimes the choices overlap these two areas (best version and what makes money) is just an added plus.

    If it was about making the best version of Lusternia, there would be no guild overhaul (and/or no need for it)
    I just want to point out that I was the one who really pushed this proposal to the rest of the admin and Estarra (someone who actually makes money from the game) was against it when we first started out. I don't make any money from Lusternia (though full disclosure Sarapis did give me a gift card for Christmas so I guess I might have made $0.01/hour this year). While having less guilds will probably lead to better novice retention and more money from those novices, none of that really motivates me because I don't see any of that money. What does motivate me is my passion and love for the game, which is why I work it like a part time job for no pay. The best version of Lusternia, to me, is one where we have organizations that have more than two people online at a time and one where new players join and stay because it looks like their are people in their guild rather than that they are playing an empty game.

    Take a look at what experienced players have said about this being a good change for the game. Head over to Achaea's forums and read about how people over there think it is insane that we have twice as many guilds for a population half the size. I get that this will be a difficult  and unpopular change for people, but it was in no way motivated by money and to try to reduce it to that is really pointless and counterproductive.

    Edit: Also ikons were my idea and I'm not sure how that is connected to more money. Unless people are blowing cash on the golden ikon packs, ikons were really only meant to be a fun collectable TCG and almost all of it is accessible just by playing the game.

    The best version of Lusternia to me is one where we dont have just one or two people with ALL THE POWER in the city and guild/faction or whatever it's going to be I'm sorry but having just one or two people with all the power in the city is ridiculous it's going to lead to nothing but an extreme abuse of power and nepotism and people arent going to be abl to do much about it because they'll have no where else to turn and yes I realize that people are just going to reply that with "well then contest them!" I'm sorry but it is just NOT that simple and to reduce it to that is also counterproductive. my best version of Lusternia is where what the players want is cared about.. where just once in a while they listen to the people who say NO instead of the people who say yes (yes @Everiine I do understand that 50% of the people would be upset either way but do YOU get that they have never ONCE listened to the people who said no to an idea and just did what they wanted too anyways?)


    Also Ikons were just something I threw out there as an example of something new added that was really unneccessary. not that they arent cool. not that goop isnt cool or that curious arent cool.. they ARE awesome lil things but they do mean people have to spend more money (maybe not ikons specifically but dont get too focused on technicalities here!) on things that are really pointless and offer no means of player retention or anything. just funky stuff for the old players to spend more cash on. it's frustrating when there are more important things to do and more important things to fix. 
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,254 Transcendent
    The envoy report archives are literally a library of examples of admin listening to people saying "no."
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  • NyxxNyxx Member Posts: 130 Capable
    Celina said:
    The envoy report archives are literally a library of examples of admin listening to people saying "no."

    I was more referring to -big- things that they actually ask the -entire- population about. once again do not get hung up on technicalities. 
  • OtheroOthero Member Posts: 666 Expert
    As someone who is die hard about their guild, this is a good change. We have way too many guilds and to be honest, the RP for a lot of them sucks. (I'm looking at you Monk guilds.) This is a chance to get in on the ground floor and build some really cool new things as players. 
    Ayisdra said:
    Sylandra said:
    Sometimes when you're the person in charge you have to make a tough call. Running a game isn't about being popular, it's about putting together the best version of Lusternia that you can. You may have made another choice in this situation, but this is the choice being made. I'd say forming a team of players to assist in this process is far from proving there is no respect for the playerbase; honestly, they could have made changes without consulting us at all.

    Plus I really doubt Estarra could ever pitch to IRE "hey why don't you just cut some other games mine is the coolest one" y'know?

    Let's be real. No decision is about making the best version of Lusternia. All decisions made are about what makes the most money. Having novices come to the game is what causes more money to come in. The fact that sometimes the choices overlap these two areas (best version and what makes money) is just an added plus.

    If it was about making the best version of Lusternia, there would be no guild overhaul (and/or no need for it)
    This is a really jaded opinion. Obviously some decisions made to make money, wonder crystals for example. They are an incentive to spend money. So are lesson packages and all the different credit deals. But to argue that an overhaul is all about bringing in money is just jaded and a ridiculous bias because you believe the admins are faceless jerks who are out to ruin it for everyone. They are all ex-players and none of them, besides Estarra, are making a dime off of this. Change is scary but something needed to be changed with how many guilds and orgs we have, as a long time player it has had an obvious effect on population which makes for a bad Lusternia. Be positive and take advantage of the changes and help put in what you want to see in the game.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,357 Transcendent
    They certainly have, at times, just done what they want and ignored players who said no... but they have also certainly listened to our disagreement at other times and either scrapped the idea entirely or changed it to be more appropriate.  Saying that they never listen is pretty unfair, and certainly doesn't help your argument at all.
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  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 894 Fabled
    Zvoltz said:
    Ayisdra said:
    Sylandra said:
    Sometimes when you're the person in charge you have to make a tough call. Running a game isn't about being popular, it's about putting together the best version of Lusternia that you can. You may have made another choice in this situation, but this is the choice being made. I'd say forming a team of players to assist in this process is far from proving there is no respect for the playerbase; honestly, they could have made changes without consulting us at all.

    Plus I really doubt Estarra could ever pitch to IRE "hey why don't you just cut some other games mine is the coolest one" y'know?

    Let's be real. No decision is about making the best version of Lusternia. All decisions made are about what makes the most money. Having novices come to the game is what causes more money to come in. The fact that sometimes the choices overlap these two areas (best version and what makes money) is just an added plus.

    If it was about making the best version of Lusternia, there would be no guild overhaul (and/or no need for it)
    I just want to point out that I was the one who really pushed this proposal to the rest of the admin and Estarra (someone who actually makes money from the game) was against it when we first started out. I don't make any money from Lusternia (though full disclosure Sarapis did give me a gift card for Christmas so I guess I might have made $0.01/hour this year). While having less guilds will probably lead to better novice retention and more money from those novices, none of that really motivates me because I don't see any of that money. What does motivate me is my passion and love for the game, which is why I work it like a part time job for no pay. The best version of Lusternia, to me, is one where we have organizations that have more than two people online at a time and one where new players join and stay because it looks like their are people in their guild rather than that they are playing an empty game.

    Take a look at what experienced players have said about this being a good change for the game. Head over to Achaea's forums and read about how people over there think it is insane that we have twice as many guilds for a population half the size. I get that this will be a difficult  and unpopular change for people, but it was in no way motivated by money and to try to reduce it to that is really pointless and counterproductive.

    Edit: Also ikons were my idea and I'm not sure how that is connected to more money. Unless people are blowing cash on the golden ikon packs, ikons were really only meant to be a fun collectable TCG and almost all of it is accessible just by playing the game.

    At the end of the day, Estarra is making most of the final decisions (unless it is mandated from IRE, which is different issue on its own), no?. While I have no doubt that she makes these final decisions with the Gods input, what they are willing to do make said proposals work, etc, I also wouldn't be surprise if the question of how X is going to effect sales wouldn't have a large amount of weight behind it.

    I suppose my draw to the more empty guilds (which in my very limited experience of just Glom and Halli, seems to be the mage/druid), and my own experiences I had as a novice many years ago makes me jaded to seeing this as a bad idea. That and I would rather see each archtype of a city have a seat on the council (as it does not) rather than this 3 faction plus CL system that is purposed (unless this has changed...)


    sidenote: I thought the Zvoltz that made Ikons quit being a god....are you the same Zvoltz from years ago that made Ikon?

  • NyxxNyxx Member Posts: 130 Capable
    Xenthos said:
    They certainly have, at times, just done what they want and ignored players who said no... but they have also certainly listened to our disagreement at other times and either scrapped the idea entirely or changed it to be more appropriate.  Saying that they never listen is pretty unfair, and certainly doesn't help your argument at all.
    ok. can you give me one MAJOR game-changing thing they have asked the entire game population on (like htey have about this guild thing) and they listened tot he people who said they didnt want it? if you can I will retract that portion of my argument.
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 894 Fabled
    Othero said:
    As someone who is die hard about their guild, this is a good change. We have way too many guilds and to be honest, the RP for a lot of them sucks. (I'm looking at you Monk guilds.) This is a chance to get in on the ground floor and build some really cool new things as players. 
    Ayisdra said:
    Sylandra said:
    Sometimes when you're the person in charge you have to make a tough call. Running a game isn't about being popular, it's about putting together the best version of Lusternia that you can. You may have made another choice in this situation, but this is the choice being made. I'd say forming a team of players to assist in this process is far from proving there is no respect for the playerbase; honestly, they could have made changes without consulting us at all.

    Plus I really doubt Estarra could ever pitch to IRE "hey why don't you just cut some other games mine is the coolest one" y'know?

    Let's be real. No decision is about making the best version of Lusternia. All decisions made are about what makes the most money. Having novices come to the game is what causes more money to come in. The fact that sometimes the choices overlap these two areas (best version and what makes money) is just an added plus.

    If it was about making the best version of Lusternia, there would be no guild overhaul (and/or no need for it)
    This is a really jaded opinion. Obviously some decisions made to make money, wonder crystals for example. They are an incentive to spend money. So are lesson packages and all the different credit deals. But to argue that an overhaul is all about bringing in money is just jaded and a ridiculous bias because you believe the admins are faceless jerks who are out to ruin it for everyone. They are all ex-players and none of them, besides Estarra, are making a dime off of this. Change is scary but something needed to be changed with how many guilds and orgs we have, as a long time player it has had an obvious effect on population which makes for a bad Lusternia. Be positive and take advantage of the changes and help put in what you want to see in the game.
    Roark and Ieptix are also paid for their work on Lusternia, but that is besides the point.

    Perhaps it is jaded, but IRE is a business first and a game second. I do believe all of the non-paid admin do their best to make the game fun. That they try to make the best of anything so we players enjoy the game with any change that comes.

    As for being positivie and take advantage - see my above post about enjoying small/empty guilds more and how I think this guild overhaul, personally, is a bad idea. Be aware, I do not doubt that if the goal is to attract more true new players and not just alt, something needs to change. What that change is, we all have different ideas of what that is.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,357 Transcendent
    Nyxx said:
    Xenthos said:
    They certainly have, at times, just done what they want and ignored players who said no... but they have also certainly listened to our disagreement at other times and either scrapped the idea entirely or changed it to be more appropriate.  Saying that they never listen is pretty unfair, and certainly doesn't help your argument at all.
    ok. can you give me one MAJOR game-changing thing they have asked the entire game population on (like htey have about this guild thing) and they listened tot he people who said they didnt want it? if you can I will retract that portion of my argument.
    1) Should we have Players become full Gods (one every year) when they win Ascension (original game plan)?
    Answer: No.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,254 Transcendent
    Pretty sure IRE is a business and game first, simultaneously, because their business is literally a game.
    image
  • ShaddusShaddus *Heavy Breathing Intensifies*Member Posts: 7,133 Transcendent
    This is going to be completely not helpful, but if you don't think the admin pay attention and you feel that Lusternia is just a money pit, why do you stick around?
  • NienlaNienla Member Posts: 272 Expert
    edited February 2016
    Nyxx said:
    Curious but did you guys ever think that Maybe the reason you cant support your playerbase is because oyu have too many GAMES not that you lack the people? seriously? less people play Imperian and Aetolia and MKO (definitely should NOT have been released with our player base) than play lusternia and Achaea and maybe you should cut the other 3 games and just stick with what you have so far been half way decent at rather than screwing everything up like you have with every other major change done to ANY of the games you've all done it too> achaeas house system fucked it up for example.. this is going to be no difference. its not the damn game itself! its the number of games you offer!
    Kind of want to pick this apart, as I think it's mostly emotional rather than based entirely on factual merit.

    One, Imperian's playerbase actually just recently had a huge surge of converts from all over the IRE games. It's got a healthy population. Aetolia, however, competes with Lusternia regularly with total players and I've seen Aetolia exceed it regularly as well. I'd probably say that around peak, Lusternia and Aetolia are about even. MKO is the one with the seriously lacking playerbase though, yes.

    Also very rude to say that they should just cut three other games when there are people who definitely still play them and have invested a lot of time into them. Aetolia and, to a lesser extent, Imperian are very healthy right now. I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I'm perceiving a lot of your argument to be based on the fact that you, like many others, really like guilds and the overhaul is likely going to make a lot of people emotionally susceptible because there's a lot of history being changed.

    On that note, I've said this once and I'll say it again: there's a very clear difference between what Achaea has done and what Lusternia is capable of achieving. For one, Lusternia's community on a whole has a greater emphasis on roleplay and narrative. While not nearly at the level of Aetolia, it's still there well enough that the players are quite capable of establishing history, identity, and purpose behind the "new" guilds just as much as they've done with current ones. We've effectively been handed a blank canvas and been told, "Okay, you're being given complete creative freedom here." As players, we should be rejoicing. There's NOTHING saying that the overhauled guilds can't have the same identities as the current guilds. Those who think that class and the quantity of guilds determines roleplay or quality are wrong and this has been established by Aetolia's overhaul. Roleplay identity is still very much strong in a lot of Aetolia guilds despite multiclass.

    Honestly, this is deja vu all over again. I'm reading the exact same arguments and concerns with those who want to keep guilds. However, the current structure is vastly unsustainable at this point. It was fine back when Lusternia had four organizations, but now we have six and we don't have the playerbase to have six organizations with five guilds in each. Newbies are being turned off, just as I would expect them to, by logging into an org and seeing a ghost town on GWHO and sometimes even CWHO.

    However, the players themselves have to make a choice: would you rather see Hallifax and Gaudiguch go away or revamp guilds with creative freedom? I'm pretty sure there would be more ranting about that than the current objective with guilds. While this is going to seem pretty callous, people need to get over it for the good of the game on a whole. If the administration can tie in mechanical importance (outside of classes) to the guilds to help grant them identity, there is virtually nothing else stopping the playerbase from shaping the new guilds as they see fit.


  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,254 Transcendent
    As a note, Nyxx isn't really being fair. The admin rarely poll the population regarding implementing new mechanics. It's rarely a yes vs no scenario. They don't listen to "no," because they never asked. Incidentally, that means they didn't listen to "yes," either. Most games (or any that I really know of) poll the players about whether they want the next expansion or not.
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  • NyxxNyxx Member Posts: 130 Capable
    Shaddus said:
    This is going to be completely not helpful, but if you don't think the admin pay attention and you feel that Lusternia is just a money pit, why do you stick around?
    I didnt say they don't pay attention -at all-. I said they dont  particularly care or pay attention to the players who disagree with them is all.

    @Xenthos that isn't a fair example. The very first "full god" that we had at our first Ascension is the one who screwed all that up for us. that was not a result of half the player base saying no we dont want this as is the case here (or am I misinformed on that? did they have a poll about that too and I just missed it? It was years ago so my memory may be fuzzy)
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