Improving at larger scaled combat

Yarith

So the dynamic alliances of the game are never going to be even and due to both the interests of the playerbase, life affairs and timezones, the balance of power is inevitably going to shift from here to there as time goes on. With all that said though, how does an alliance seek to improve itself against overwhelming odds, whether they be differences in individual skill between conflict competitors, differences in the spread of classes present at an event or differences in sheer numbers?

While experiencing more conflict may the direct answer, I don't believe that that helps at all in a group context when afterwards everyone merely returns to their manses and don't partake in personal reflection or group reflection on what could be done better. While a lot of conflicts can turn out to be a case of inevitable defeat, there are always things which can be done better, excepting few senarios. 

For a larger part now, the player base is prominently veterans who have set down roots in particular organisations and less invested people who play for their various reasons and either stick or move on. This means that we have a community where you can expect to fight the same people pretty reliably and several skirmishes can be mirrors of earlier conflicts which may have happened days, weeks or months ago.

What are the factors which change the outcomes to these repeating conflicts?
What is constant in the engagements when you feel the enemy is notably stronger than usual?
What are the skills which make it hardest to break into or break out of places? I think is is especially important due to how one-room focused Lusternian combat is.

I know I'm not the greatest combatant but at the moment I'm not exactly getting any better and I'm not really sure at this point what more I can do to help in group situations. Not knowing what more I can do is stressing me out a little.

Cyndarin

Organization and coordination change the outcomes of fights. The biggest differentiator between veteran PKers in groups and the casuals is that veterans prioritize staying with their team and locating them when they get split up (emphasis on the latter). They don't get distracted chasing around solo enemies, establishing the group is always priority numero uno. You will see a lot of non veteran groups put a lot of effort into starting together, but once things get chaotic, the more excitable PKers run off chasing random enemies that have split off. Staying together is just as important as starting together. Maintaining cohesion is rough sometimes, but crucial. Veteran PKers look for one another, non veteran groups generally rely on a person to track the wayward sheep down and are much less efficient about reorganizing as a result.

Twytch

Going to echo @Celina's note on keeping the group together. It's why group splitting abilities like Crow Squall, FearAura, and that thing in Acrobatics that I can't remember offhand have received a lot of scrutiny and heat in the past.

Another thing to work on would be target prioritization. There are easy choices, like melders (usually) being first target, but you also have to look at the playstyle of particular people. "This person spams aeon, take him out," or "that person runs the moment he's hit, do that and remove someone from their group" or things like that.

Tarkenton

Don't forget demi+ igasho. That looks amazing for picking people off if you're a monk. Put up hyperactive, and if the power supports it (don't remember off hand) doing a scissor plus igasho tackle is quite a bit of confusion.

Marcella

It'd be nice if people engaged in reflection about how they could have been better afterward instead of running back to their manses. Whenever we lose, I never see us *not* comment on what to do next time.

Tremula

For it's faults, Mag was always very good at picking me up after I got upset and tried to walk away from combat to try and tell me, "Okay this is how you fix your problem. This is how you get better." If more people did that for their city in general, that'd be a good first step towards the alliances getting more in sync. I see a lot of people doing nothing but griping about x mechanic or y player, and only a few people trying to help others get better. 

Falaeron

The problem is that the northern alliance has very few people with the experience to be able to tell us what we could/should be doing, let alone the patience required to do so after a lost fight. There is just very little enthusiasm here. Most of the time it's one of the newer people who are trying to encourage people to get involved.

Marcella

Magnagora tried for like 50 years to get to ally iwth either seren or halli and kept getting told to screw off, so

probably you guys' fault that you refuse to get the military guys on your side and now we're forced back with glom

I specifically even asked some of the gaudi councilors whether they'd be fine with seren/halli and they werel ike 'yeah!'

Aeldra

I'll agree here with @falmiis that the enthusiasm is sadly not very strong in the north right now. I actually hope that our failures will inspire us to be better and get better organized... but that's actually no OOC talk, but rather for IC.

I think those things are very hard to figure out on your own, it would be of course great if someone from the respective orgs would sit their younger members down and tell them what they did wrong and help them figure out how to avoid it in the future, plus also encourage people a bit. It's nothing more devastating to a cause then people high up / perceived as knowledgable just being 'we can't win this'. Sure to an extend people try, but I think with knowledge spread thin as it is, improvement can only come through effort

Tarkenton

I've yet to find someone on the opposite side, especially the guys that have been doing this for years, that won't offer constructive feedback. If you get stomped, post a log, have people look, ask what you can do better and what your side can do better, then implement it. It's how I went from four months of failing at monk to actually being able to take people down.

Yarith

I don't know. I don't think we should have to move alliances just so things are in a different place. All sets of any arrangement of cities/communes should work fine and the current set up is fine, I just wanted to know if we could get general advice on what to do better and when we seem stronger/weaker. That's the intent of the discussion.

The problem with asking for a third opinion on a group combat log is that they are long, hard to analyse and generally can either be traced back to one or two errors or points in which the conflict is won/lost or becomes a situation where you try and analyse the vitals, afflictions and balances of each person from a single person's perspective.

Lavinya

Having played both sides, I found one notable difference with the northern alliance is that communication is not always very good. Calling targets, making a strategy (even a loose or vague one) makes a world of difference. There is nothing worse than being part of the team and finding yourself just picked off because you don't know who to go for, you don't know who to follow, people are racing off etc etc. 

The Southern alliance veterans have amazing communication. I love it, because I can just do as I'm told, follow their lead and their prompts and presume I'm being helpful. Spam call your targets. Make use of empress etc to keep your group together. Have a strategy ("Ok when we go in, you scissor, you there drop brume and bonds, let's take out this person then this person ok ready? Go go go") even if it's only vague or an initial plan and communicate it. There is always someone willing to take the lead, multiple someones. And people follow.

Marcella

You're weaker because you have no coordination and if your 'leader' goes down all the scrubs keel over and die because they don't actually know how to fight. No Kelly, no Avurekhos, no Taevyn, no life.

We focus on the leaders and your groups crumble.

Yarith

Thank you for your constructive criticism. I'm sure we're going to win every battle with that in mind from here on out.

Silvanus

I made a forum post called "Group Combat Advice" or something along those lines that has some small advice, nothing comprehensive.

It's pretty damned hard to win a fight against a fortress, no matter how prepared you are for it, try not to take it to heart when you lose against those odds.

Yarith

I forgot that existed. Thanks!

Shaddus

Marcella said:

You're weaker because you have no coordination and if your 'leader' goes down all the scrubs keel over and die because they don't actually know how to fight. No Kelly, no Avurekhos, no Taevyn, no life.

We focus on the leaders and your groups crumble.

This. The flag and off topic are amusing, but nothing could be further from the truth. Marcella is absolutely correct. For the most part, the north crumbles if it doesnt have a leader.

Yarith

Thank you, us in the North are painfully aware of that fact and working on it. This thread was asking more about general advice towards controlling uphill combat senarios. 

Falaeron

We know that there's a lot to work on, but that's exactly why Yarith made this thread. It is not constructive at all to tell us about the problems we are already trying to address.

Marcella

Guess what the advice is?

Learn how group combat works so that if a leader goes down, someone else is next in the hierarchy to take over and you don't all scatter like lemmings floundering in a river trying not to drown.

This is literally the first #1 problem you need to take care of.

Yarith

And I am afraid I have to thank you once again for providing the solution I was not capable of coming to myself. 
Thank you @Celina and @Silvanus for providing your content.
Some of us are trying to make it better but things like this make me wonder why I want to try.

Edit: I'm aware of that but that doesn't just change overnight. It takes time, a lot of it, and exposure, and people willing to try and adjust. Some of those things don't come cheaply, some hardly come at all. 
We know that we need to work on communication and we are and have been working on communication. I didn't start this thread to be told the painfully obvious, and the last thing I think any of us need to hear is ridicule, especially when we, or I, am going out of our way to ask the community at large how we can improve. I will bring back into focus that the title of the thread is not: 'Why does the north suck so much recently?'.

Marcella

It's funny because Celina is saying the same thing I am. She's telling you not to rely on a leader to get your group abck together but on your group knowing to be together on its own.

Synkarin

1) Attitude - gotta have a positive attitude. Gotta want it. Can't give up. Some people like @Enyalida always seem to argue against me when I try to say this. She doesn't really understand what it means, but attitude means a whole lot. There are entire fields devoted to performance psychology and how to get the best out of yourself mentally. Sports psychologists exist for a reason, and it's because your attitude plays a big part. Nobody likes losing or dying but you got to let it go and get back in there.

2) Leadership - Need to put together a plan when you go in. This is probably the biggest reason I left Hallifax. It's not so much as you don't have leaders as it is that people don't seem to want to listen to the people taking the lead. If you're not willing to lead yourself, then listen to the guy stepping up. Alternatively, if you are stepping up, don't give the people following you a reason to not want to follow you. Negativity only breeds resentment. Even if you lose because a specific someone messed up, shrug it off. They're probably more upset about it and harder on themselves than you are. Help them get over it and get it right next time. I can't count the times someone in our group that isn't really a big time combatant ends up saving the day because they were encouraged and succeeded.

3) Everybody is useful. There isn't a useless person out there. The biggest non-com can be helpful somehow. Use anyone willing and make sure you let them know you appreciate it.

4) Independence - a good group is going to be able to independently get around and group. The name of the game is separation, especially if you're outnumbered, so being able to regroup quickly is a huge benefit. I'm not really going to worry about leaving people behind because I expect people to take the initiative to get to me etc. I'll empress if I can, but you shouldn't count on it.

5) Will to live - gotta stay alive, you're no use dead. Don't expect anyone to save you because they may not be able to, got to save yourself 

6) Group awareness - Got to protect your group - if you see someone targetted, save them, if you see someone throwing down a chasm/instakill whatever, save them. Gotta help your buddies out. They shouldn't expect your help (see 5) but do what you can to keep them alive.

7) Have some balls - got to take chances. You can't win when you don't try. You'll never learn if you don't try stuff. For instance in the Life claim yesterday, you guys were scared to run into our group when the only thing we really had going was pits. If you had just rushed us and gotten a meld up, you'd probably have won. We had no melder to take it down and once you're camped at the sceptre, you hold the advantage. You guys just stayed one room away rather than engage us head on. Numbers were pretty even as well so that wasn't an issue. That's why we rushed you the first time, we wanted to try and prevent the meld from going up (we failed) but managed to send you packing both the first time and the second time when you came in separated. the third time, we weren't going to fight willingly in your meld, so we camped and you just let us have it.

If you're worried about running a group to their death, I've been there and done that. A lot. I've also taken groups that should rightly get trounced and succeeded, even if just for a little bit. Yarith just posted a log of a fight on Water awhile back where it was like 3 Gaudi's vs a bunch of celestians. We made that go on for quite some time, even though we probably should have lost. When I was first a VA, people used to laugh at how easily I died (both enemies and allies alike). I think I survive pretty well now. Learn from your mistakes, improve yourself, flaunt your strengths, strengthen your weaknesses. If you notice a group tactic that can be better, tell the group. If you notice something someone can do better, pass on the advice. Everyone started off as a noob. Everybodies dies. Everybody loses. Nobody is above any of that. @Shuyin got decapped during Chaos, he has the most recorded kills in the game. I let him get decapped. I got judged the other morning during a domoth. Heck, Arcanis chasmed me not once but twice. Fucking Arcanis! We all make mistakes. Got to improve upon them.

Edit: Oh yeah - stop bitching about 'bs plays' and 'honour' and all that. Get over it, especially if you're the guy that's raving when things are going your way like they were a month ago. There's quite a few people that rave when they get easy wins and complain when they get competition. Stop with that shitty attitude. 

Yarith

That was extremely helpful and motivating. Thank you for sharing and taking the time to write all that out! 

Lerad

One thing I noticed from the posts up there: logs.

The two things I learned most of what I know, came from watching people better than me in my group (Viy, Shu, Sidd, Celina) and from reading logs. You're playing a text game. You've read novels before.

Combat logs are a walk in the park.

Go through them with a fine toothed comb. You'll find not just your own mistakes, but your friends' mistakes, and your opponents' strategies. These are invaluable.

Half of my alert triggers were "stolen" ideas from Viy and Sidd's combat calls. Whenever I noticed myself reading one of their automated clan alerts and reacting to it, the next step is to duplicate it in my system. Always add a toggle, so that if the leader is around and calling out, you don't spam up the clan with the same message. But enable them when said leaders aren't around.

Spatial awareness and recognition is very important. Even now, that's my weakest aspect, and more often than not, I regroup with my team too late to contribute. Always make yourself move and run faster. There is a reason scent is the number one priority artifact (or ability) to have. 

Synkarin

Oh, also inb4 Arcanis says some dumb thing about how those deaths still bother me. They don't, I'm just using them to highlight that no one is infallible and sometimes good people die to noobs. I'm over it and have been over it. It simply gets the point across because you are you and I am me. 

Cyndarin

What I see happen ALL the time is when things get chaotic, randoms will chase me around a village/domoth trying to kill me as I ignore them, collect my thoughts, and rejoin the group. It's hugely detrimental to do this, do not succumb to the urge to try and get a glory kill when you see an enemy by themselves. It happens so often it's worth nothing: don't jump on solo targets by yourself during large group fights. Focus on regrouping.

Vivet

My biggest issue is definitely figuring out how to help other people improve. I have so many issues keeping my own highlights and things working that trying to help others usually means I just make it worse. Also can't attempt to lead/act at the same time to save my own life.

I would also agree that we in the north tend to get very risk aversive. I can think of too many domoths in the last half year where I feel like we could have made a breakthrough if we just pounced, but instead we sit and try to play the pick-off game while the opposition gets more deeply entrenched and fortified, at which point they're way better at the pick-off game than us and we lose.

And every so often, there seems to be an instance where the leader will say "Rush!", and then only two or three people will move in and get slaughtered, only for a chorus of "Oh, rush?" to pop up about 15-30 seconds later. I'm not sure if it's from people watching a movie while also trying to play Lusternia or something of that ilk, but it never feels good to see it happening.

Ymuli

I am still learning, but my biggest input was def giving newer/younger people a heads up of what to focus on. This is something that will likely change with every different team, so it's good to have a general idea of what you're going to aim for and what people should focus on doing. I find a lot of 'we're going to rush in!' lacks an understanding of the target/aim.

Zagreus

Some really great info in here so far!

Every situation is different, but a major issue I see across the board with newer combatants is lack of independence. They often expect, or hope, that a big leader <insert name here> will tell them every little thing, how to breath, how to act, when and where to move. You don't need scent or a billion credits, though sure it helps a bit.

What you do need is a COMMANDING knowledge of area design and layouts. People are spoiled on the MAP function. Before MAP existed and before I had a mapper to auto walk to X target or room, I did everything manually for years. There's nothing that will teach you about movement quicker than learning to walk from place to place manually. SQUINT ALL THE TIME. Squint until your hands hurt. Knowing where people are is a huge deal. Every second of information counts. If you're not with the main group, or get moved, MAP and squint around and focus on getting back to the team. Even if you have a 2v1 against an enemy you might be able to kill, the main group might be losing ground (i.e. demesne being broken, etc), so it's rarely worth trying. You could take 60 seconds to 2v1 kill someone, or spend about 10 seconds killing a target with the killsquad.

Just an idea, but we've done this a while back for teaching newer people about these things::
- Setup a wargames
- Get 1 person who has good curing/tanky/good at escaping.
- Have a group of 5+ try to lock them down and kill them. Repeat until successful.
- Repeat with 2 greased monkeys, one of which is a melder.

Ymuli

We've def been doing wargames. I think we just need to put Avu/one other person on one team and everyone else on another until we get the hang of staying in groups and actually working together.