Affinity Removal

AlaksanteriAlaksanteri Member Posts: 462 Fabled
edited June 2016 in Ideas
As many of you know, my character recently left Magnagora but continued to follow a god aligned with Mag. Just like others have, I now face the hard reality of affinity drain (@Lavinya, @Kilee, @Tremula ?, as well as many others). Please show up and support this thread if you too protest against the affinity system.

Affinity does not make logical sense RP-wise. Scenario :

Random person from enemy org who offered 40 000 000 without affinity drain : 'I don't know what I'm doing, just found this dope-looking shrine and offered there because it was there. YOLO. Astral bash for life'.

vs.

Hardcore follower who preaches, designs items and rituals, writes books, converts, goes out of their way for divine but can't suffer the aligned org any longer and decided to leave. Offered 60 000 000 and drained -28273658493018267.

How does that make sense?


Affinity is also an overwhelming penalty for playing in unconventionnal ways and removes possibly very interesting RP interactions. We should not be chained to an org in which we no longer have fun playing just to be able to stay in an order that we really like. Diversity and playing by associating two orgs which really appeal to someone without the dire consequences of affinity could render an overall greater satisfaction out of the gaming experience and the opportunity to RP with more players.


Affinity is a massive commitment imposed on players. Lusternia is a game and like for all games it should never demand of any player to log in and hunt for above two hours -every day- not to keep offering but just to replace the essence lost by affinity. This is what affinity drain now asks of me though. This is regardless of wether I want to take a break from playing then come back without such an impact (I should be able to log off and be able to do as I want without feeling bad for draining -64524174960 essence because I can't log in as often or stay around too long), regardless of my RL events, the time that I actually can spend playing or affecting the activities I do during that play time (hunting out of necessity gets extremely boring).
As a reference, I drain 120 000 essence every RL day and all my offerings are now significantly decreased in value. It would require me to hunt for two hours every day just to upkeep essence and I am certain that the situation is much worse for lower circles. This is not my idea of a fun game and it encourages to stop RPing to pursue endless essence gathering.

It is an overwhelming and broken system meant to undermine all the wonderful things I did (and can still do) for my order since Alak was an Urth and it clearly can't work unless I give up my RL, which I will never do. 


Here is what I would like to suggest to improve this :

- Remove any form of affinity drain for everyone.

- I would prefer that the significantly decreased offerings be removed too but if you really want to impose consequences for not playing with the divines aligned with our org, okay, keep that. It would allow us to be able to take breaks without consequences and come back when we want without having to replace a monumental amount of essence as well as to not face the divine wrath for costing them so much.
Post edited by Alaksanteri on
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Comments

  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 958 Fabled
    To my knowledge ,Affinity was put in place so orders wouldn't go to new orgs and take over. I'm told this happen with Fain trying to take over Glom when it first came out. When Halli/Gaudi came out, Estarra/admin didn't want the same to happen.
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 958 Fabled
    While the affinity loss isn't that bad (I want to say it caps out around 350K (for reference, this is about 900 esteem in a level 40, mini, figurine before any other bonuses or losses) with an Inner Circle Avatar. I can't remember what @Talan was costing Isune when she left but kept her rank), the big thing that hurts is the offerings are reduced by half.

    We have begged for an artifact that removes affinity, but still haven't got that.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,614 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    So from what I've read there has been countless number of threads about people who want to be part of an order but not the organisation their patron is tied to. Maybe this is because I started playing in a post-affinity climate, but it is clear to me that just as guilds are very much part of their respective organisations, orders are also very much part of the identity of the organisation. Hallifax wouldn't be Hallifax without Isune, Jadice and Zvoltz. Glomdoring wouldn't be Glomdoring without Viravain, Nocht, Manteekan and Shikari and Magnagora ultimately wouldn't be Magnagora without Fain, Raezon, Morgfyre and Drocilla.

    As it is clear that the ones who make these decisions have decided that this is the way they see Lusternia I think affinity in its current form has failed. Divine essence ultimately means nothing to mortals so to me this has always seemed to be a disincentive for the Gods rather than their followers. If a God appreciates you enough that they allow you to stay in the order despite the drains of affinity then that is a choice that they must make. This is clear from the fact that this drain increases the higher in the order you are. However, players have taken this to be a penalty on them.

    Instead, I'm going to propose a likely unpopular counter-solution, which is to disallow order membership for people not in the organisation the patron is tied to entirely. Ultimately this is no different from guild membership. If you don't want to be part of Hallifax you can't be part of the Aeromancers, so why should you be allowed to be part of Zvoltz's order? It is clear that the links between the city and communes and all other sub-organisations are supposed to be very strong and while this may not have been the case for orders when the game first launched, this is the direction the admins have decided to go so why not reinforce it?
  • SylandraSylandra Friend of Dog Member Posts: 4,205 Transcendent
    I'm actually in support of @Falmiis's suggestion. If we don't swing completely in the "foreign members are okay" direction, might as well decisively cement the way the orders were (supposedly) designed to work.

    Up to Estarra and the admin though.
    Fyler said:
    Sylandra has a very signature (and somewhat twisted) sense of humor
  • TwytchTwytch Member Posts: 485 Expert
    The main thing to keep in mind is that Lusternia's Orders are very different from, say, Achaea's. Our Divine don't hold all-encompassing domains like Love or Wealth or Death. In Lusternia, Orders are very much a sub-org to one of the six major powers. Affinity is a poor mechanic to enforce this idea, but the intent will probably not change.
    See you in Sapience.
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 958 Fabled
    Falmiis said:
    So from what I've read there has been countless number of threads about people who want to be part of an order but not the organisation their patron is tied to. Maybe this is because I started playing in a post-affinity climate, but it is clear to me that just as guilds are very much part of their respective organisations, orders are also very much part of the identity of the organisation. Hallifax wouldn't be Hallifax without Isune, Jadice and Zvoltz. Glomdoring wouldn't be Glomdoring without Viravain, Nocht, Manteekan and Shikari and Magnagora ultimately wouldn't be Magnagora without Fain, Raezon, Morgfyre and Drocilla.

    As it is clear that the ones who make these decisions have decided that this is the way they see Lusternia I think affinity in its current form has failed. Divine essence ultimately means nothing to mortals so to me this has always seemed to be a disincentive for the Gods rather than their followers. If a God appreciates you enough that they allow you to stay in the order despite the drains of affinity then that is a choice that they must make. This is clear from the fact that this drain increases the higher in the order you are. However, players have taken this to be a penalty on them.

    Instead, I'm going to propose a likely unpopular counter-solution, which is to disallow order membership for people not in the organisation the patron is tied to entirely. Ultimately this is no different from guild membership. If you don't want to be part of Hallifax you can't be part of the Aeromancers, so why should you be allowed to be part of Zvoltz's order? It is clear that the links between the city and communes and all other sub-organisations are supposed to be very strong and while this may not have been the case for orders when the game first launched, this is the direction the admins have decided to go so why not reinforce it?

    Elostian's order was a very 'open to all' before the days of Hallifax. Even when Elostian became patron of Hallifax, he still had an open to all ideal as far as I know. Your classflexing example I think falls flat. I mean, look at the monks we have in the city (sure, this number is low, but still).

    Using Jadice's order as an example, She allows anyone in the order (given they fill the basic entry requirements). Do we have anyone outside hallifax right now? No. But to have the option open is nice. And then we come back to spreading the will of the God issue. If Zvoltz wanted to send His order members out to other orgs to influence those places with His ideals, then he should be able to without having to cast out person.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,614 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    Monks in Halli/Gaudi, like any class in an organisation they're not tied to, are like affinity. There is a significant penalty, which is that most class feats become completely unusable. Why is this? Because you're not supposed to be a monk, or a pyromancer, or a nihilist or any non-Halli class in Hallifax. Just as you're not supposed to be part of Drocilla's order while in Hallifax. The fact that you even have an option is a huge compromise. Elostian, Jadice and any other god who allows members from outside their organisation has made this choice, knowing the consequences.

    Currently, if your God really wants you in their order even after you leave their org, that is entirely their choice and not yours. You can choose to leave but whether you get to stay is up to them because they're the ones being punished and not you. Be grateful that this is even an option because it is clear the game was designed for it to not really be one except for special circumstances.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    You're citing unusual scenarios like Jadice and (now dead) Elostian rather than the rule, which is basically all other gods who generally have ideologies or histories that align with and/or against specific orgs. Additionally, the orgs are fundamentally out to destroy/assimilate/whatever all other orgs. We only co exist because we mechanically can't laser beam Gaudiguch away or boil the pool of stars. Asking for a change in rules because of what you want for your one situation makes less sense than Lusternia's underlying reason d'etre.
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 958 Fabled
    Falmiis said:
    Monks in Halli/Gaudi, like any class in an organisation they're not tied to, are like affinity. There is a significant penalty, which is that most class feats become completely unusable. Why is this? Because you're not supposed to be a monk, or a pyromancer, or a nihilist or any non-Halli class in Hallifax. Just as you're not supposed to be part of Drocilla's order while in Hallifax. The fact that you even have an option is a huge compromise. Elostian, Jadice and any other god who allows members from outside their organisation has made this choice, knowing the consequences.

    Currently, if your God really wants you in their order even after you leave their org, that is entirely their choice and not yours. You can choose to leave but whether you get to stay is up to them because they're the ones being punished at not you. Be grateful that this is even an option because it is clear the game was designed for it to not really be one except for special circumstances.
    My point was if you are you going to lock orders to their org, you should do the same and force the few monks we have in Hallifax to pick a guild.

    For the first 6 years of the game, order affinity wasn't a thing. But the fear that Hallifax and Gaudi would become mini-states of another org and not their own things is what drove affinity to become a thing.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    And I think allowing any God to send heir minions out into the world to influence other orgs is literally the complete opposite of what nearly everyone wants. Speaking from experience, it's cool to you, massive pain in the ass for everyone else.
  • SylandraSylandra Friend of Dog Member Posts: 4,205 Transcendent
    Elostian's most recent order was completely Hallifaxian actually. As I recall, he blew up the order prior to the Kalikai showdown, then restarted anew in Hallifax.
    Fyler said:
    Sylandra has a very signature (and somewhat twisted) sense of humor
  • TwytchTwytch Member Posts: 485 Expert
    Ayisdra said:
    Falmiis said:
    So from what I've read there has been countless number of threads about people who want to be part of an order but not the organisation their patron is tied to. Maybe this is because I started playing in a post-affinity climate, but it is clear to me that just as guilds are very much part of their respective organisations, orders are also very much part of the identity of the organisation. Hallifax wouldn't be Hallifax without Isune, Jadice and Zvoltz. Glomdoring wouldn't be Glomdoring without Viravain, Nocht, Manteekan and Shikari and Magnagora ultimately wouldn't be Magnagora without Fain, Raezon, Morgfyre and Drocilla.

    As it is clear that the ones who make these decisions have decided that this is the way they see Lusternia I think affinity in its current form has failed. Divine essence ultimately means nothing to mortals so to me this has always seemed to be a disincentive for the Gods rather than their followers. If a God appreciates you enough that they allow you to stay in the order despite the drains of affinity then that is a choice that they must make. This is clear from the fact that this drain increases the higher in the order you are. However, players have taken this to be a penalty on them.

    Instead, I'm going to propose a likely unpopular counter-solution, which is to disallow order membership for people not in the organisation the patron is tied to entirely. Ultimately this is no different from guild membership. If you don't want to be part of Hallifax you can't be part of the Aeromancers, so why should you be allowed to be part of Zvoltz's order? It is clear that the links between the city and communes and all other sub-organisations are supposed to be very strong and while this may not have been the case for orders when the game first launched, this is the direction the admins have decided to go so why not reinforce it?

    Elostian's order was a very 'open to all' before the days of Hallifax. Even when Elostian became patron of Hallifax, he still had an open to all ideal as far as I know. Your classflexing example I think falls flat. I mean, look at the monks we have in the city (sure, this number is low, but still).

    Using Jadice's order as an example, She allows anyone in the order (given they fill the basic entry requirements). Do we have anyone outside hallifax right now? No. But to have the option open is nice. And then we come back to spreading the will of the God issue. If Zvoltz wanted to send His order members out to other orgs to influence those places with His ideals, then he should be able to without having to cast out person.

    This is exactly the problem which Affinity tries to address. It wasn't okay when Fain tried to influence Glomdoring, it's not okay now for any foreign Order to dictate policy on a city/commune.
    See you in Sapience.
  • LavinyaLavinya Former Queen of Snark AustraliaMember Posts: 3,354 Transcendent
    -[Player]----------[Offers]----[Deaths]----[Powers]----[Affinity]---------[Net]-
     Lavinya       144,090,937  -5,069,970    -220,000    -1,620,000   137,180,967


    From where I'm sitting, there is no cap on affinity drain as yet. Except @Alaksanteri your drain is massive in comparison. @Morgfyre probably will need to do something behind the scenes I think, to do with rank or permissions or something. Like how I no longer have my name on His help file and get no family honour for being avatar of the family patron since he took away something or other. I can see why you hate the drain! Almost caught my affinity drain and you've only been gone days compared to my months.

    I can live with the constant (small) drain, what really hurts is the offerings being halved AS WELL. I've now dropped 2 level 40 miniaturised yadda yadda figurines with over 200,000 esteem on each, but my offerings are no where near showing that. Way way harsh. One or the other makes sense.

    Currently it's perfectly possible and allowed for people to be part of guilds in other orgs, such as monks. How does that make more sense than being in a divine order from wherever you are? Yes divine are linked to orgs, but that doesn't mean they aren't relevant at all outside them. I think that, like outside guild users couldn't use certain power skills, there should be a drawback to not being in said org while following linked divine, but at the moment affinity is, I think, overly harsh. Have a penalty, sure. Orgs can legislate, just like guilds can! (Currently I'm the only exception to Glomdoring law about following foreign gods.) I get that affinity is supposed to stop the Fain of old takeover, but is that really something that is likely to happen again? Would the players behind the divine even allow it? Divine can also remove members if they deem them no longer fitting, don't forget. 

    tl;dr remove one or the other, having both is too harsh.



  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,614 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    Ayisdra said:
    Falmiis said:
    Monks in Halli/Gaudi, like any class in an organisation they're not tied to, are like affinity. There is a significant penalty, which is that most class feats become completely unusable. Why is this? Because you're not supposed to be a monk, or a pyromancer, or a nihilist or any non-Halli class in Hallifax. Just as you're not supposed to be part of Drocilla's order while in Hallifax. The fact that you even have an option is a huge compromise. Elostian, Jadice and any other god who allows members from outside their organisation has made this choice, knowing the consequences.

    Currently, if your God really wants you in their order even after you leave their org, that is entirely their choice and not yours. You can choose to leave but whether you get to stay is up to them because they're the ones being punished at not you. Be grateful that this is even an option because it is clear the game was designed for it to not really be one except for special circumstances.
    My point was if you are you going to lock orders to their org, you should do the same and force the few monks we have in Hallifax to pick a guild.

    For the first 6 years of the game, order affinity wasn't a thing. But the fear that Hallifax and Gaudi would become mini-states of another org and not their own things is what drove affinity to become a thing.
    I'm saying there are penalties to classflexing out of your org, as there is a penalty for affinity. Nobody is complaining about the penalties for classflexing because everyone accepts that this is part of the game's design. More people need to accept that affinity is also part of the game's design. If they can't accept it then we might as well take away the privilege they currently have so that it's very clear that this is a hard line.

    And honestly, I don't think anyone would complain if classflexing outside orgs is disallowed completely, especially after Halli and Gaudi get their monks (if and when it happens).
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 958 Fabled
    edited June 2016
    Lavinya said:
    -[Player]----------[Offers]----[Deaths]----[Powers]----[Affinity]---------[Net]-
     Lavinya       144,090,937  -5,069,970    -220,000    -1,620,000   137,180,967


    From where I'm sitting, there is no cap on affinity drain as yet. Except @Alaksanteri your drain is massive in comparison. @Morgfyre probably will need to do something behind the scenes I think, to do with rank or permissions or something. Like how I no longer have my name on His help file and get no family honour for being avatar of the family patron since he took away something or other. I can see why you hate the drain! Almost caught my affinity drain and you've only been gone days compared to my months.

    I meant cap as in how much it can drain per weave, not all together.

    Edit: To my knoweldge, affinity is based on your circle (outer, middle, inner) and if you have avatar. Having a cult might factor into it as well.
  • AlaksanteriAlaksanteri Member Posts: 462 Fabled
    edited June 2016
    Affinity is very different than classflexing because it creates a constant drain, every day, wether you are playing today or not. I don't really mind offerings being decreased in value. However, both together, at the rate it is going right now is not a mechanic that any game should ask players to keep up with, if they choose that way of playing.

    I like that we are given this option but it should be playable (and fun), allow me to offer whenever I feel like doing that, and allow me to take breaks from time to time to continue my RL without having essence drain out of control.
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 958 Fabled
    Falmiis said:
    Ayisdra said:
    Falmiis said:
    Monks in Halli/Gaudi, like any class in an organisation they're not tied to, are like affinity. There is a significant penalty, which is that most class feats become completely unusable. Why is this? Because you're not supposed to be a monk, or a pyromancer, or a nihilist or any non-Halli class in Hallifax. Just as you're not supposed to be part of Drocilla's order while in Hallifax. The fact that you even have an option is a huge compromise. Elostian, Jadice and any other god who allows members from outside their organisation has made this choice, knowing the consequences.

    Currently, if your God really wants you in their order even after you leave their org, that is entirely their choice and not yours. You can choose to leave but whether you get to stay is up to them because they're the ones being punished at not you. Be grateful that this is even an option because it is clear the game was designed for it to not really be one except for special circumstances.
    My point was if you are you going to lock orders to their org, you should do the same and force the few monks we have in Hallifax to pick a guild.

    For the first 6 years of the game, order affinity wasn't a thing. But the fear that Hallifax and Gaudi would become mini-states of another org and not their own things is what drove affinity to become a thing.
    I'm saying there are penalties to classflexing out of your org, as there is a penalty for affinity. Nobody is complaining about the penalties for classflexing because everyone accepts that this is part of the game's design. More people need to accept that affinity is also part of the game's design. If they can't accept it then we might as well take away the privilege they currently have so that it's very clear that this is a hard line.

    And honestly, I don't think anyone would complain if classflexing outside orgs is disallowed completely, especially after Halli and Gaudi get their monks (if and when it happens).

    Classflexing monk has nearly zero penalties, to my understanding. Out of the 30ish skills of the spec, you can't use like 2-4 (unlike about half of classflexing to other guild skills). But as Alak said, Affinity has a constant drain that is hard to keep up with given the offering penalty.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,396 Transcendent
    I've said this before, and I'll say it as many times as needed. Monks do use org power on a regular basis and it is integral to their kill strategies. The no-power-monk is functioning at a vastly inferior level, to the point where killing anyone who knows what they are doing is probably the fault of the victim.

    The only reason why they are remotely viable in combat is because of cheese - there are certain monk cheeses that are viable without power. In fact, they are considered cheesy because of the lack of power restrictions and other relevant costs (ka costs, momentum reqs/costs) proportionate to the effect and impact that they cause.

    I've always felt that it was strange people outside of an org cannot worship a god of that org. Contrary to what people claim, the gods here DO express and pick specific "universal" values to represent. Viravain, for example, represents beauty. I don't dispute, however, that each god here twists those values in a way that can only be described as human - the values they represent are really only applicable to the org, and the narrow perspective, that they reside in. Which also happens to be one of the reasons you see some gods share similar values in different orgs. That's the really nice thing about the concept of divinity here: we're basically just dealing with very powerful beings that like and dislike things (and each other) in a very human way - just at a very elemental level.

    The level at which someone can worship a lusternian deity while not being of that org varies depending on which org, and which deity, you're talking about. For example, worshipping Viravain outside of Glom because your character is dedicated to beauty is probably very difficult, but worshipping Isune for the exact same reason outside of Hallifax is probably a lot more palatable. There likely is much less reason to be sympathetic to this thread's suggestion if you're a Viravain follower, or Viravain herself, but there is a lot more steady ground to stand on for Isunites. Affinity is basically a one-size-fits-all solution to a premise and a lore universe that is anything but uniform. It is as flawed as it can be in that context, but it simply works, at an ideological level, for certain subsets of Lusternia.

    And for that same reason, any other system you come up with will face the exact same problem, unless you're doing it on a case-by-case basis.

  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 958 Fabled
    edited June 2016
    Lerad said:
    I've said this before, and I'll say it as many times as needed. Monks do use org power on a regular basis and it is integral to their kill strategies. The no-power-monk is functioning at a vastly inferior level, to the point where killing anyone who knows what they are doing is probably the fault of the victim.

    The only reason why they are remotely viable in combat is because of cheese - there are certain monk cheeses that are viable without power. In fact, they are considered cheesy because of the lack of power restrictions and other relevant costs (ka costs, momentum reqs/costs) proportionate to the effect and impact that they cause.

    I've always felt that it was strange people outside of an org cannot worship a god of that org. Contrary to what people claim, the gods here DO express and pick specific "universal" values to represent. Viravain, for example, represents beauty. I don't dispute, however, that each god here twists those values in a way that can only be described as human - the values they represent are really only applicable to the org, and the narrow perspective, that they reside in. Which also happens to be one of the reasons you see some gods share similar values in different orgs. That's the really nice thing about the concept of divinity here: we're basically just dealing with very powerful beings that like and dislike things (and each other) in a very human way - just at a very elemental level.

    The level at which someone can worship a lusternian deity while not being of that org varies depending on which org, and which deity, you're talking about. For example, worshipping Viravain outside of Glom because your character is dedicated to beauty is probably very difficult, but worshipping Isune for the exact same reason outside of Hallifax is probably a lot more palatable. There likely is much less reason to be sympathetic to this thread's suggestion if you're a Viravain follower, or Viravain herself, but there is a lot more steady ground to stand on for Isunites. Affinity is basically a one-size-fits-all solution to a premise and a lore universe that is anything but uniform. It is as flawed as it can be in that context, but it simply works, at an ideological level, for certain subsets of Lusternia.

    And for that same reason, any other system you come up with will face the exact same problem, unless you're doing it on a case-by-case basis.
    On Monks:  I can only look at the skill list and see that only a very small set of skills actually use org power. So I can only comment on that and not the actually use.

    While It may be because Viravain didn't have an active player, or a different Viravain than the current one, I worshiped her for about 9 months when Hallifax first came out (and before affinity was a thing) and about a month after affinity did. As you said, every god expresses different values, likes and ideals. A person can find the most alignment with God A but not their org.

    There only real solution I see short of deleting affinity is to give us a high-priced artifact that negates it and the offering penalty (if not both, and given the choice between one of the other, I would pick the offering penalty to be negated).
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Three Lakes, WIMember Posts: 2,755 Transcendent
    I am in general opposed to mechanics that include a constant negative drain on something. Heck, the Serenguard quest had 1 of a total 10 things decay every RL day, and that paltry decay got to the point where it almost broke because so many people were sick of putting in the extra hour of questing and grinding to keep it up every day. Constant negative drains just for existing are demoralizing.

    Now, if the entire purpose of affinity is to demoralize players until they quit their order, okay. Come out and say it. "Affinity is designed to punish you until you leave". If the purpose of affinity is to force people to not be in orders outside their org, the less painful way, the better way, would be to just code that.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    I agree with @Lerad's take on what divinity in Lusternia means and have similar confusion about an ideology that describes gods as (necessarily) org-locked concepts. 

    If the goal is to lock god worship to their associated org, just do it and lock membership to that org. I don't think this is a good idea or that it makes sense, but it accomplishes the ostensible goal directly. If the goal is to prevent order members from a foreign god from taking over another org, just do it and prevent them. If it's some kind of political takeover, expose the plot and roleplay (with divinely enforced action) shutting it down. If a god's order is taking over another org without the support of that god, it's not a god's order taking over an org - it's a player group taking over an org, a event that happens relatively frequently, completely independently of affinity. Case in point - early Hallifax and Gaudiguch.

    Beyond just locking order membership to orgs, all of the orders are ostensibly headed under delegation on authority from the god in question. Not only are the code particulars totally controlled, the tenor and direction of the social controls is at the will of the administration in this case too. If Fain's order members are destabilizing Gaudiguch (or whatever), have Fain make them knock it off. If that isn't consistent with Fain's character, do two things: First, examine why actions consistent with your game world are causing issues in the same. Second, just make it consistent. That doesn't work out, write an event that makes it consistent. Kalikai starts a McCarthy-esque Freedom Inquisition that leads a rout of Fainites, forcing Fain to withdraw his people lest his other more important gambits fail. Or perhaps that's what Fain wanted all along, creating a atmosphere of paranoia that distracts from... whatever.

    Why use weird indirect measures that feel like punishment and piss everyone off to curb behavior in a setting where the limits (both hard and soft) are arbitrary and directly controllable? 

    EDIT:

    Everiine said:
    If the purpose of affinity is to force people to not be in orders outside their org, the less painful way, the better way, would be to just code that.



    Basically, this.
  • TalanTalan Member Posts: 1,000 Transcendent
    I think the system needs to be less strict. A god's affinity for an org should come in degrees, and be reflected in their presence in the org's pantheon. Pantheon members enforce full affinity.

    Some gods are very obviously tailored to certain orgs, but others occupy a niche that only loosely corresponds to the orgs they are associated with. Darvellan and Crumkane are two examples off the top of my head. They appeal most to certain types of players that are present in all orgs. By contrast, you would be hard-pressed to justify following Lisaera or Viravain from any organizations but Serenwilde or Glomdoring respectively.

    I think it would be nice if there were a few options for people who want more from their divineRP than another shade of orgRP.

    It would also be nice if there were IC-orgs whose membership crossed the persistent alliance lines.

    Affinity is effective for doing what it intends to do... I think the question before Estarra needs to be, is it actually necessary in all instances.
    #NoWireHangersEver

    Vive l'apostrophe!
  • AlaksanteriAlaksanteri Member Posts: 462 Fabled
    edited June 2016
    The concept of degrees is definitely something that I would like to see happen. Divines kind of lose their status as complex entities by fully aligning with only one org and then becoming nothing more than another aspect of said org.
    Post edited by Alaksanteri on
  • TremulaTremula the Fate's choice for Drocilla Member Posts: 2,465 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    I just want to remind everyone that HELP RAEZON exists. Limiting players to divine in their org is different than guild membership, as you would be directly influencing how the character may think and grow, which any DM will tell you is a no - go on a personal topic like religion. :|
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • AlaksanteriAlaksanteri Member Posts: 462 Fabled
    edited June 2016
    As a note, organisations would still be able to hold their own laws regarding divine worship and enforce them, as is already common practice, regardless of affinity being removed. For example, Fain and Celest are not a good match and I don't think Celest would allow it to happen.
  • TwytchTwytch Member Posts: 485 Expert
    As a note, HELP RAEZON was written long before Orders became subsets of cities/communes. Then Faindoring happened, and since then the powers that be have slowly and inexorably tied Orders to the player orgs.

    Affinity is an inelegant mechanic, on that much I think everyone agrees. Either hardcode it in such a way that Orders become like current Guilds, or freely allow Order membership across organizations.

    However, think of the possible awkwardness of cross-org Orders. Raezon, for example, could reasonably attract members of Gaudiguch and Hallifax, maybe even Glomdoring. What happens when Celest raids the Raezon godrealm (does he have one? For example's sake let's say he does.)? Gaudi and Halli skills working together to defend a Mag territory? 

    To reverse the example, take Darvellan. Hallifaxians would no doubt be drawn to his Order. It might even attract Magnagorans. The list goes on.
    See you in Sapience.
  • AlaksanteriAlaksanteri Member Posts: 462 Fabled
    edited June 2016
    Twytch said:
    As a note, HELP RAEZON was written long before Orders became subsets of cities/communes. Then Faindoring happened, and since then the powers that be have slowly and inexorably tied Orders to the player orgs.

    Affinity is an inelegant mechanic, on that much I think everyone agrees. Either hardcode it in such a way that Orders become like current Guilds, or freely allow Order membership across organizations.

    However, think of the possible awkwardness of cross-org Orders. Raezon, for example, could reasonably attract members of Gaudiguch and Hallifax, maybe even Glomdoring. What happens when Celest raids the Raezon godrealm (does he have one? For example's sake let's say he does.)? Gaudi and Halli skills working together to defend a Mag territory? 

    To reverse the example, take Darvellan. Hallifaxians would no doubt be drawn to his Order. It might even attract Magnagorans. The list goes on.
    I want to point out that they are currently possible situations, given that the players wish to keep up with affinity. We are all told that we are allowed to join whatever order we want that also wants of us. Then the affinity mechanic kicks in... a mechanic that asks us to waste all of our time keeping up with the drain. 

    We 'can' but the mechanic is way too demanding. I don't mind the offering penalty that much. But I really protest against the endlessly draining part of that mechanic. We should be able to take breaks from the game, like anyone else, and not have an obligation of hours every day towards a game to keep up with that drain. I want to continue to log in at my convenience and have fun too. 

    Also, divines can change their help files when they want and Raezon is still around. You can't say that it is no longer representative because it was written a long time ago, and just because you'd like that. It is still there and probably still representative.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    So quit your order.

    I want Trueheal, but I'm still a Pyromancer at the end of the day. Going against the grain in Lusternia comes with penalties. You can't be a successful Geomancer in Glomdoring because you require power specifically from the Megalith. The design of the game on a very basic level is to maintain severely conflicting ideologies on multiple levels. The game does  not want you to have an easy time as a taint god worshipper in Glomdoring for reasons that you can rightfully dislike, but ultimately can't really disagree with. The game wants gods and mortals aligned with specific orgs, period. Grey area loyalties are not a part of Lusternia's game design.




  • LavinyaLavinya Former Queen of Snark AustraliaMember Posts: 3,354 Transcendent
    So quit your order.

    I want Trueheal, but I'm still a Pyromancer at the end of the day. Going against the grain in Lusternia comes with penalties. You can't be a successful Geomancer in Glomdoring because you require power specifically from the Megalith. The design of the game on a very basic level is to maintain severely conflicting ideologies on multiple levels. The game does  not want you to have an easy time as a taint god worshipper in Glomdoring for reasons that you can rightfully dislike, but ultimately can't really disagree with. The game wants gods and mortals aligned with specific orgs, period. Grey area loyalties are not a part of Lusternia's game design.




    Then make them outright impossible. Quitting org automatically quits order. 



  • AlaksanteriAlaksanteri Member Posts: 462 Fabled
    It is not about the powers, never has been, and no classflexing does not cause daily drain that you have to keep up with.
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