Looking Forward: Healing Skillset

13

Comments

  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 960 Fabled
    Ew. Please no to eq balance for healing. Just keep healing as a free eq action with its own cd/bal, maximum amount of cures = maximum amount of auras you can sustain - auras you are sustaining.
    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • BreandrynBreandryn Member Posts: 1,521 Transcendent
    I have to ask, is reckless different in Lusternia? In other IRE's, it's a noob-check - either you know how to code in reckless identifiers, or you don't, which is frustrating to people on both sides of the equation. Basing a large chunk of changes around something which has a large coding element seems problematic, imo, but maybe reckless works differently here.
  • TamashiTamashi Member Posts: 250 Capable
    Recklessness is where your vitals show at full regardless of the actual number.
  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 131 Capable
    Breandryn said:
    I have to ask, is reckless different in Lusternia? In other IRE's, it's a noob-check - either you know how to code in reckless identifiers, or you don't, which is frustrating to people on both sides of the equation. Basing a large chunk of changes around something which has a large coding element seems problematic, imo, but maybe reckless works differently here.
    With regular recklessness it's a matter of having smart checks to know that you have it and cure it. If you know you have it and can't effectively cure it (which I believe it's what's going on here) then to effectively combat it you have to have a really good sense of what attacks do in terms of health/mana damage. For a system to manage that in an automated fashion it would have to have default damage values for nearly every attack in the game which is kind of a pain. 1v1 you should be able to read what's happening and figure out if you're being mana drained/damage killed and sip yourself, but in a group it'd be pretty much impossible.
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,335 Transcendent
    Weeeelll....you could theoretically go through and collect lines for the mana and ego attacks, and highlight them partially or fully to indicate what they're hitting, then use the colour you're seeing more of to give you a sense of what you need to sip. (ie: Blue skies forever? Sip mana. Green Hill Zone? Sip bromides. No colour? Can't go wrong with health.) Augment that with OSHI- button healing scroll/tome and sparkleherb, and you should be able to survive until the recklessness wears off/cures off. But that's still a lot of coding to do and a lot of lines to collect, and you'd better hope no one hits you with blackout while this is going on.
  • BreandrynBreandryn Member Posts: 1,521 Transcendent
    It may be a lot of work, but coding against it means you can handle the affliction far far easier than someone who hasn't. Afflictions like that become weak against skilled people and OP against newer players.
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,335 Transcendent
    Which is unfortunately par for the course. The same can be said of nearly any affliction based class-kill. It's either niche and difficult for everyone to deal with but shuts down new players completely, or it lacks teeth  against skilled coders and makes things difficult for newbies. Examples abound, including Illusions in Illusions, Sleep attrition in Dreamweaving, certain doublewhammies/doubleflings/doubleslings, old solo-preserve...
  • WeiwaeWeiwae Member, Gods Posts: 443 Divine
    Hi, just wanted to give a quick update on how we are thinking of changing Anesthesia based on player feedback here:

    The new version of Anesthesia would work as follows:


    Healers can twist a patient's aura to deaden their senses such that they feel no pain.
    • New affliction: anesthetized (atypical cure type). 1 power, patient suffers from incurable recklessnes and receives aurawarp (amount depends on caster's current empathy)
    • Patient will continue to suffer the effects of recklessness until she has cured 7 afflictions or until 1 minute passes, whichever comes sooner.
    • Anesthesia will dissipate on its own if patient is not cured of at least 1 affliction every 10 seconds.
    • While anesthesia is active, the patient will be immune to the effects of sensitivity (but can still be afflicted with it) and will receive a 2/5 universal damage resistance buff.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    This is changing it from an offensive attack to a defensive measure?

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • WeiwaeWeiwae Member, Gods Posts: 443 Divine
    Synkarin said:
    This is changing it from an offensive attack to a defensive measure?
    Is a 2/5 universal damage resistance and sensitivity immunity really worth 10-60 seconds of recklessness?

  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited September 2016
    I'm confused. If the target cures anything within 10 seconds, they keep the aff until the cure 7 full afflictions which will then remove anesthesia. If they don't cure anything for 10 seconds, it ceases to work. Is that correct?

    I would strongly encourage moving away from incurable recklessness. You can't balance masking all your vitals in Lusternia. With Lusternia having so many mana kill options, the ability to keep a handle on your vitals is paramount. Not being able to manage mana vs health in group fights is a one way trip to toad town. One of the reasons blackout was so out of control and required an immunity was because you couldn't track your vitals (you could still spam diagnose so affs were less of an issue). This feels like a problem we've solved for already through envoys. It doesn't need to lich.

    As a player who spent most of their PK life as a mana killer, this just makes it too easy. Recklessness as is is just a noobcheck. Prolonged incurable recklessness is a whole different story. Pk is more interesting and dynamic when it involves plays and counter plays based on available information. The more information that is available, the more skill, practice, and ability factor into a fight. Removing information becomes a fight against a mechanic rather than the player. 
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,335 Transcendent
    If it does go in as-is, I'd also recommend that healers gain no empathy for healing an anesthetised patient, or preferably loses it. Otherwise, shift aura over to them and alternate an attack with an affliction that aura cures for 1 minute of 'you suck'. Bonus point for bedeviling. Even I could kill someone if I was given a full minute of them not being able to see/cure their vitals properly. 
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    7 afflictions isn't really that much, it'll dissipate pretty fast, so it's better than the previous implementation, I think. However, I think it's probably a bit overcomplex. Maybe reduce the time significantly (5-10s), or a bit longer, and have it disappear when leaving the room with the Healer. I'd also add mana/ego drain resistance
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 771 Mythical
    edited September 2016
    Change anesthetize to:

    Targeted numbness.  Duration increases with empathy, varying say between 5s (max warp) and 20s (max empathy).

    % of damage dealt at the end of the numbness varies also, ranging between 120% damage taken (max warp) and 60% damage taken (max empathy).

    This gives you a fairly versatile skill that you could use defensively to save your teammate, or aggressively to boost your team's damage output.  The numbers are open to variation, but I feel like this will be an easier skill to balance, and fits thematically.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • WeiwaeWeiwae Member, Gods Posts: 443 Divine
    edited September 2016
    I'm confused. If the target cures anything within 10 seconds, they keep the aff until the cure 7 full afflictions which will then remove anesthesia. If they don't cure anything for 10 seconds, it ceases to work. Is that correct?


    Worse case scenario, the target has recklessness for 60 seconds.
    Best case scenario, the target has 7 afflictions that they manage to cure pretty quickly. (about 4 - 5 seconds if I'm doing my math right)

    If the target decides not cure anything, or is unable to, it goes away in 10 seconds.
    If the target cures x afflictions, and then gets stuck and is unable to cure anything else for 10 seconds, the anesthesia goes away as well.
  • WeiwaeWeiwae Member, Gods Posts: 443 Divine
    edited September 2016
    Ciaran said:
    Change anesthetize to:

    Targeted numbness.  Duration increases with empathy, varying say between 5s (max warp) and 20s (max empathy).

    % of damage dealt at the end of the numbness varies also, ranging between 120% damage taken (max warp) and 60% damage taken (max empathy).

    This gives you a fairly versatile skill that you could use defensively to save your teammate, or aggressively to boost your team's damage output.  The numbers are open to variation, but I feel like this will be an easier skill to balance, and fits thematically.
    Just to give you an idea of where the designers are coming from.

    The main goals for anesthetize.
    1. Give a skill which is offensively useful in combat in the slot that it is currently set to.
    2. Add some strategy to curing and affliction placement both for the healer and the person fighting against the healer.
    3. Have it make sense thematically.

    I'm not saying this idea can't happen (not my decision), just trying to give you some insight. Is boosting damage in this way going to work well for the classes that have healing available to them?

    Shedrin said:
    7 afflictions isn't really that much, it'll dissipate pretty fast, so it's better than the previous implementation, I think. However, I think it's probably a bit overcomplex. Maybe reduce the time significantly (5-10s), or a bit longer, and have it disappear when leaving the room with the Healer. I'd also add mana/ego drain resistance
    We want to avoid a run to ignore mechanic.  The mana/ego drain resistance is a nice idea though and may be possible.

        Luce said:
    If it does go in as-is, I'd also recommend that healers gain no empathy for healing an anesthetised patient, or preferably loses it. Otherwise, shift aura over to them and alternate an attack with an affliction that aura cures for 1 minute of 'you suck'. Bonus point for bedeviling. Even I could kill someone if I was given a full minute of them not being able to see/cure their vitals properly. 
    If I'm understanding you correctly, your concern is that a target would be able to be hindered to such an extent that they could not cure 7 afflictions within a reasonable amount of time / they would only have one affliction every 10 seconds or so for 60 seconds? Are you sure you would actually be able to kill someone who was not healing their vitals properly within 60 seconds without giving them 7 afflictions to cure before that time is up?  The 7 afflictions do not have to be separate afflictions.
    Post edited by Weiwae on
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 771 Mythical
    I appreciate the response @Weiwae! Basically, I don't like uncurable recklessness as the effect because I'm 99% sure I could code my system to basically ignore it, but most people would get totally wrecked by the effect.

    I offer another alternate solution that fits better with your goals:

    Anesthetize works as you described above, with curing 7 afflictions removing the effect, etc.  However, the effect of anesthetize is to make it so that all damage you take is dealt as mana damage.  The % of damage would probably have to be decreased... So it would do something like 100 damage -> 70 mana damage.

    It would be really nice for Wiccans and Celestines, while Institute don't really need any help for their kill method.

    Also, it could be used defensively, essentially making someone immune to damage kills, albeit manakill bait.  Maybe that would be too strong?
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,819 Transcendent
    Long-lasting (whether it be incurable, a 1-minute/7 aff check, or what have you) recklessness is not a good idea.

    Recklessness can be a very strong affliction, used well-- the point of it isn't to be able to "drop and lol as you do whatever," the point is to try to sneak it in (at which point a reckless check should catch it, but if it's unable to cure it for whatever reason immediately it lets you get some pressure on that the system isn't able to immediately address).  Once cured, it has to work a little overtime to catch up-- or the person dies.

    Please just reconsider this entire reckless idea, it's certainly not going to be fun or entertaining for anyone facing it.
    image
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    Weiwae said:
    I'm confused. If the target cures anything within 10 seconds, they keep the aff until the cure 7 full afflictions which will then remove anesthesia. If they don't cure anything for 10 seconds, it ceases to work. Is that correct?


    Worse case scenario, the target has recklessness for 60 seconds.
    Best case scenario, the target has 7 afflictions that they manage to cure pretty quickly. (about 4 - 5 seconds if I'm doing my math right)

    If the target decides not cure anything, or is unable to, it goes away in 10 seconds.
    If the target cures x afflictions, and then gets stuck and is unable to cure anything else for 10 seconds, the anesthesia goes away as well.
    There is nothing stopping an organised team from doing this on a target and then doing nothing but damage/mana attacks with one person tacking on an affliction to max the timer.

    It's going to be very easy to keep a target with the full recklessness for 60 seconds with a slightly organised group if people continue to cure as they are curing now. I mean not curing for 10 seconds doesn't seem an option it'll just get you killed against like almost everyone.

    Thinking of ways around it then as a counter:

    Option one: I mean you could code up a very complicated system to estimate damage and mana drain and sip and drink appropriately but I was under the impression that the overhaul was supposed to be removing the "you need a super complicated system for single specific mechanics like choke" style of things right?

    This option would like you just ride through the reckless as if nothing was happening, it'd not be perfect but its doable.


    Option two : Only way around it I can see myself as a more IG defense is if we self inflicted ourselves to get rid of it quicker sort of sip poison bomb ourselves to avoid it.

    Sip a steam cure/slush cure/dust cure/icecure etc. Then we can cure it in roughly 4ish seconds but eat up a lot of balances doing so. It'll still require a fair bit of coding to make you sip the poisons until you get the affliction what with shrugging and such but well its a quick fix rather than a long drawn out thing.

    Not sure without testing it but as practical options both seem potentially viable. 
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    I think people are overestimating the 7 affliction thing. There's a ton of passives that deal afflictions that you would have to turn off if you wanna avoid that, and if you do only one affliction every 10s, it'll be incredibly easy for the target to just run away.

    Not that it's not still quite powerful, but I don't think 60s will be all that common.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 771 Mythical
    I don't think the reckless effect will be super OP @Shedrin , what I was trying to get at was that it's something that can be coded to be basically useless, but will screw up some people a ton.  I don't want to have a skill that wrecks noobs and does absolutely nothing to good fighters.

    Hence me making other suggestions that would be more uniformly effective.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    60 seconds may not be common, 15-20 seconds could be. 15 to 20 seconds in a decent sized fight is plenty of time to kill the majority of people. 
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 771 Mythical
    Imagining this were implemented, the simplest solution would be to tell your system to eat sparkle/read scroll/sip health every balance, with a manual toggle to switch to mana if you want.  It wouldn't be quite as debilitating as you're making it out to be @CyndarinAscends .  A few echoes for mana drains and you're in good shape.

    I still don't think it's a very good option though because it will still totally wreck some people.  Obviously I'm a fan of my numbness or mana-draining options.

    It's worth noting: It seems as though the admins are looking at the issue largely in terms of how the skill could help a healer in a 1v1 situation.  The fighters of Lusternia are thinking how the skill will be used in groups (which is where basically all PvP takes place).  I do think we have to balance the skill with groups in mind @admin.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    What are your thoughts on just poison bombing it off of you though?
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited September 2016
    Shrug city, man. I don't recall calling it debilitating, I do recall saying knowing your vitals is a very important aspect of pk and eliminating access to that information becomes player vs mechanic. When both vitals are being pressured, an echo and looping curatives is not a sufficient solution. It's a stopgap.

    I would also bear in mind that the skill includes an aurawarp effect to prohibit curing, can be combined with stuns and aeon to further delay curing, etc. So yes, if you have 7 affs shared between the three curatives and are otherwise not restricted from curing, you will cure out of it quickly. That's not a particularly realistic scenario. 

    But anyways, not my clown, not my circus. With such strong mana killers in the game, I don't think this type of information blocking ability is in the best interest of the game. 
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    edited September 2016
    Commun curing systems already spam potions under recklessness, with toggles for h/m/e priority, and the effect doesn't actually hinder curing in any way, just the information. A question, will stuff such as stuns, entangle, blackout count towards the 7 afflictions cured?

    Also, I think 1p is too low. I'd bump it to at least 3p if it stays otherwise the same.

    Veyils said:
    What are your thoughts on just poison bombing it off of you though?
    If targetted with this, I'd probably run away and potentially poison myself to get it off quicker once I'm in a safe location. If I can't run, then I'm probably dead soon anyway.

  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    Yeah, systems also loop during blackout. Temporary effects aren't the issue, though. Prolonged afflictions are. 
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 771 Mythical
    I see pretty much everyone agreeing that long-recklessness isn't a good effect.  Does anyone else have suggestions for alternatives?  I'm not married to mine, although I think they'd be nice skills.  We might as well provide other options to the admin.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical

    I'm just thinking it would be really easy to cure away. sip Hadrudin/smoke steam/sip Haemotox/eat dust/sip Ibululu/sip slush and your halfway there anyway.
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,622 Transcendent
    Can't it be changed into delaying the curing of afflictions for a considerable amt of time?
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


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