City/commune shop concerns and brainstorming

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Comments

  • SylandraSylandra Friend of Dog Member Posts: 4,205 Transcendent
    Lavinya said:

    Sylandra said:

    The one thing about Serenwilde that always throws me is that its shops are really out of the way. I always forget where the secret entrance is! It's the one place I found whitetea when I was shopping, though. The 'plex was quite empty at the time.

    They're super close to the portals though! You should go that way!
    I shamefully don't know of any Seren aethershops connected to Serenwilde! Every one I know to be owned by a Seren isn't connected. Celest I have to regularly ask questions about because the shops I use to travel there from inevitably disconnect at some point. =((
    Fyler said:
    Sylandra has a very signature (and somewhat twisted) sense of humor
  • WeiwaeWeiwae Member, Gods Posts: 442 Divine
    What I write here is my own personal opinion and is not sanctioned by the admin, nor is this an official admin idea.. however.

    I like the idea of the "sales tax" concept, and I'm wondering if it might be useful/helpful/interesting/worthwhile etc, if when you purchase an item from a city shop that some amount of power/culture or influence is produced.

    That is, aethershops are independent ventures but city shops are tied to orgs and thus can generate a tax which helps the city in an indirect way. The benefits would obviously have to be limited and restricted. For example, a shopkeeper who purchases an item from their own store would not generate this "sales tax", and perhaps a cap on how much can be generated each day/month. Stores would then be competing to attract customers who would be looking for a place to spend gold in order to generate these sales taxes.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,736 Transcendent
    Seems pretty gameable to me; just have everyone put an expensive item in their shop, the org buys it every day & sells it back to cap out their bonus generation.

    Still think the best way to go is to let people buy an artifact to display their org shop in the aetherplex (obviously a cheaper price than the manse shop artifact itself, because otherwise you would just buy that). Only thing is that the artifact has to be tied to the person, not the shop, because the org technically owns the shop (can repossess, etc).
    image
  • WeiwaeWeiwae Member, Gods Posts: 442 Divine
    Xenthos said:

    Seems pretty gameable to me; just have everyone put an expensive item in their shop, the org buys it every day & sells it back to cap out their bonus generation.

    Still think the best way to go is to let people buy an artifact to display their org shop in the aetherplex (obviously a cheaper price than the manse shop artifact itself, because otherwise you would just buy that). Only thing is that the artifact has to be tied to the person, not the shop, because the org technically owns the shop (can repossess, etc).

    I was thinking that it would be based on the number of different types of items purchased and not the price of the item. The logs would be something along the lines of :

    aided the culture of by purchasing different items from .

    Balancing the number of items needed to get the max benefit and how large that max benefit was would be something to be balanced.
    Meaning, that if the system was "gamed" that would result in a wide variety of shops being stocked with a large variety of items.

    Now, it may be that this wouldn't interest anyone or be an actual incentive to go around shopping in your org, but that's a different sort of objection.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Theoretically, the existing taxes are intended to be a kind of inventory tax, with the chancellor assessing (and reassessing) the value of the shop, changing the gold value of the yearly tax.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited July 2016
    Or a wide variety of shops trading a large variety of items in circles.

    Part of the problem is that your idea doesn't do anything to incentivize good behavior on the part of shoppers and shopkeepers - they don't gain anything from the mechanic. It gives the org an incentive to incentivize shopping, something most if not all orgs already want to do and have been trying to do for years and years.

    Various orgs have tried different schemes to introduce similar results. One that Serenwilde (And I think Glom, to more success?) has tried is giving out bonuses and prizes to the first shop that stocked an appreciable amount of a 'bounty item', which would then be rotated frequently by the chancellor. In other words, the first item might be "pipes", and the first shop to have five different pipe patterns with at least 5 for sale gets 100,000 gold. Next year, it might be "great robes" and so on. Part of the issue here is that it encourages 'general stores', none of which will ever compare to the massive general store that is he aetherplex.

    Another proposed scheme in Serenwilde was almost completely the opposite. The idea was to dramatically raise the base tax rate, and then grant big tax deductions to shops that specialized in one or two types of goods. Each store would need to have a large percentage of its products be its main type (Apparel, Armor, Weapons, Jewelry, etc.), the rest left to its second focus and a few 'freebie items' that anyone could carry without it being figured into their percentages. The aetherplex is Wal-Mart: You can find just about any kind of thing there and for cheap, but if you want something specific, custom, or engaging - you go to a specialty store. Hopefully, shopkeepers of such stores would be encouraged to get into the role as a proprietor of a specialty store, offering special (RP) services related to their products beyond just stocking them in a storeroom. Things like "tailoring the clothing to fit", offering fashion advice, and commissioning alterations or new pieces to complete an outfit for a clothing/jewelry shop. These activities would accrue a reward, beyond nullified taxes.

    It fell apart partially because the Chancellor of the time left, and probably because it was going to be a tremendous amount of work for very little pay off in literal gold AND in effect. As pointed out: Most of the people for whom that kind of RP is fun... are already doing it.
  • DylaraDylara Member Posts: 1,287 Transcendent
    I've always kind or wanted to run my own shop but I know the main hold back for me has always been that there has never been an empty available shop for me to buy, thus it's been a turn off and I don't have the ability or will to earn/buy a thousand credits for a plex shop. I've had many opportunities to run guild shops but it's not the same for me because I don't see the profit from it.

    I don't know how to fix or shop concerns, don't even know where to start because plex shops are so good and convenient.

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • EldanienEldanien Member Posts: 369 Gifted
    edited July 2016
    So how about we put all org shops in the aetherplex. Just up and relocate them wholesale. Deny them the use of marketing (or put them in a second tier, after ALL credit-purchased shops), perhaps deny them the use of certain other shop benefits such as shop signs, increased storeroom capacities and bins - because huge piles of credits spent on aetherplex shops should convey advantages.

    This makes them equal to aetherplex shops for purposes of exposure and availability, but still leaves credit-purchased shops markedly superior.

  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Three Lakes, WIMember Posts: 2,755 Transcendent
    I would hate to see four entire huge areas in the cities and communes simply up and disappear.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • EldanienEldanien Member Posts: 369 Gifted
    I feel the same way about guilds, in general. But that acreage could easily be put to other use. RP environments, quest hubs, so on.

  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Three Lakes, WIMember Posts: 2,755 Transcendent
    I would feel better about consolidating all city/commune shops as aethershops at each city/commune portal, as at least they would be in the same area, and it would be easy to get to the aetherplex. But I still don't think it's a good solution to the many, many problems we brought on ourselves.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited July 2016
    A lot of orgs have a novice shop specifically for that use. Serenwilde used to have one set aside with discounts for novices, but I think it's closed right now.

    I would specifically love living-area RP environments. I think that aethermanses are absolutely miserable for any kind of homesteading RP that doesn't include mudsex.
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,332 Transcendent
    Seriously, the plotting that happens in the Golden Serenity? You won't BELIEVE what gets decided there sometimes.
  • SylandraSylandra Friend of Dog Member Posts: 4,205 Transcendent
    Enyalida said:

    A lot of orgs have a novice shop specifically for that use. Serenwilde used to have one set aside with discounts for novices, but I think it's closed right now.

    I would specifically love living-area RP environments. I think that aethermanses are absolutely miserable for any kind of homesteading RP that doesn't include mudsex.

    Yeah, Halli has guild shops that cater with heavy discounts to their specific guild, with at least the Symphonium to my knowledge having a whole set of items sold only to guild members explicitly for that purpose. It's also stocked to the hilt with instruments for baby bards.
    Fyler said:
    Sylandra has a very signature (and somewhat twisted) sense of humor
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spotMember Posts: 4,302 Transcendent
    Hate to spoil your fantasy but Sylandra's actually afraid of newbies. You didn't hear it from me though.
  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    Saran said:
    Perhaps some sort of "auction house" for each org, it's something we could probably do ourselves but automation would make it significantly simpler and in turn might help newer/more casual types to make some money from trades?
    I know this is an old thread, but I was going to suggest something similar and found this already existed!

    Can I also suggest that all the city/commune shops be converted into trade-specific "auction houses", where anyone can place both buy and sell orders for a nominal fee? This would also involve a significant upgrade to the tradeskill design searching system.

    The way I see it working is as follows:
    • There would be a number of city-run auction spaces that occupy most of the existing shop rooms
    • Each location would concentrate on a specific type of good corresponding to each tradeskill, so if you want to buy weapons you could go to the forging auction room, if you want to buy books you go to the bookbinder's auction room, and so on.
    • Commands would be something like:
      • <tradeskill> WARES [<search keywords>|INFO <sell id>] - Search for all items posted for sale, similar to the current shop output (eg. BOOKBINDING WARES LEAF), or show details of the item
      • <tradeskill> ORDERS [<search keyword>|INFO <order id>] - Search for all items requested to buy, or show details of the request
      • <tradeskill> SELL [<quantity>] <item> FOR <x> GOLD [LASTING <y> MONTHS] - Post an item for sale, defaulting to remaining available for 1 Lusternian year. Note a confirmation will indicate the fee taken by the city/commune to do so.
      • <tradeskill> REQUEST [<quantity>] (<item>|(<cartel>|PUBLIC) <type> <designnum>) FOR <x> GOLD [LASTING <y> MONTHS] - Place a buy order for either a basic item or general item type (eg. 1000 YARROW, SWORD, 5 SCROLL), or a specific design pattern from a cartel or public listing (eg. GREYTHANES SCROLL 26392, PUBLIC TRINKET 176).
      • <tradeskill> BUY <sell id> - Buy the item for sale, taking the gold in your inventory and depositing the item in escrow.
      • <tradeskill> FILL <order id> - Sells the item requested, taking the item from your inventory and depositing the gold in escrow.
      • <tradeskill> CARTELS - Show a list of all cartels registered with that city or commune (only applies to design tradeskills).
      • <tradeskill> CATALOGUE [<cartel>|PUBLIC|ALL] [<item type>] - Show a list of all available item types, or optionally all designs by a specific registered cartel (for design tradeskills only).
    • Depending on how much of a gold sink the admin decide is necessary, the fee to post an item (or stack of items) for sale or request a buy order could be a percentage of the listed gold price, or a set amount based on the item type. I'd suggest this fee be fairly trivial though.
    • The listing fee would be non-refundable, even if the listing expires, and would decrease if you want to only list for a number of days less than a full year.
    • The listing fee would be taken up-front when listing (either SELL or REQUEST), as well as either the items to be sold (SELL) or the money to pay upon fulfilment (REQUEST).
    • If the auction is successful or expires, the resulting gold or item will be mailed to the character. (Alternatively, it is held in the room and a message indicates they can come and collect it - to encourage more engagement?)
    • For design tradeskills (bookbinding, cooking, jewelry, tailoring, forging, artisan, tattoos), you could request a specific design to be made for you by any cartel that has registered with that nation (which costs a yearly fee as set by the nation government).
    • For non-design tradeskills (arts, enchantment, alchemy, herbs, poisons, commodities, and anything else I've forgotten), you can request batches of simple items with no need to worry about cartels or design numbers.
    Some examples of the syntax:

    :FORGING SELL 1 87362 FOR 8500 GOLD
    You are about to list 1 arboreal plate of moss-covered bark for sale at a 
    total price of 8500 gold, lasting 12 Lusternian months. This will incur
    a listing fee of 23 gold.
    Do you AGREE to this listing?
    :AGREE
    You post your listing for 23 gold.


    :FORGING WARES BARK
    Proprietor: The Free Collective of Serenwilde
    -(id)--(Description)-------------------------------(Mths)-(Price)-
     1237   1 x arboreal plate of moss-covered bark        6    8500gp


    :FORGING WARES INFO 1237
    +-[Time left:  6mth]--[Quantity:       1]--[Price:       8500gp]-+
    You inspect the item that was listed for sale by Elryn 8 months ago:
    This unusual druidic armour is formed from irregular segments of rough
    tree bark interlocking together in seemingly random, organic patterns to
    encase the host in protective forestal plates. The dusky grey surface of
    the wood is uneven, full of aged burls and leafy protuberances, and
    swathes of silvery green mosses and bright orange lichens wreathe the
    plates in swirling colour. Streaks of deep amber translucence can be
    glimpsed occasionally from within the crevices of the bark, hinting at
    veins of fossilised resin and metallic reinforcement cast throughout the
    living armour to improve its functional protection. An underpadding of
    woven vine fibres and jungle leaves has been fastened underneath the
    wood for the comfort of the host, with the same fibrous material binding
    adjacent bark plates but allowing them to remain flexible enough for
    movement near any joints. Along the many edges of the armour, druidic
    runes have been inscribed into the grey wood and set with dark filigree
    gold and emerald gemstones, glittering with obscure meanings whenever
    caught in the light.
    It has 123 months of usefulness left.
    It weighs about 3 pounds and 0 ounce(s).
    It does not retain any heat whatsoever.
    It bears the distinctive mark of Dedicant Elryn Greythane, of the Hart.
    It has been stamped with the seal of Silversteel Forging.
    It has the following aliases: plate, fullplate.


    :FORGING BUY 1237
    You buy arboreal plate of moss-covered bark for 8500 gold pieces.


    :FORGING REQUEST 4 SILVERSTEEL LEATHER 2269 FOR 200 GOLD LASTING 2 MONTHS
    You are about to request 4 green leather vests of the white tree for a 
    total price of 200 gold, lasting 2 Lusternian months. This will incur
    a listing fee of 4 gold.
    Do you AGREE to this listing?
    :AGREE
    You post your listing for 4 gold.


    :FORGING ORDERS
    -(id)--(Description)-------------------------------(Mths)-(Price)-
    53763   4 x a green leather vest of the white tree     2     200gp


    :FORGING ORDERS INFO 53763
    +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Time left   :         2mth   Price        :               200gp |
    | Time listed :         0mth   Requested by :               Elryn |
    | Item type   :      leather   Cartel       :         Silversteel |
    | Requested item(s):                                              |
    |  [      4] a green leather vest of the white tree       (#2269) |
    +-----------------------------------------------------------------+


    :FORGING FILL 53763
    You do not have 4 of the requested item in your inventory.


    :FORGING FILL 53763
    You fill the requested order for 4 green leather of vests of the 
    white tree, receiving 200 gold pieces in payment.


    :ARTISAN CARTELS
    *******************************************************************************
    [Cartel]          [Owner]         [Trademaster]   [Type]       [Affiliation]
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wildecraft        Elarin          Elarin          Artisan      Serenwilde
    SongSparrow       Lendren         Lendren         Artisan      Private
    Gorseddau         Sondayga        Sondayga        Artisan      Private
    Workshop          Melita          Melita          Artisan      Private
    Para              Aerys           Aerys           Artisan      Private
    Zephyr            Saran           Saran           Artisan      Private
    Milkweed          Lendren         Lendren         Artisan      Private
    CoT               Elryn           Elryn           Artisan      Private
    *******************************************************************************


    :ARTISAN CATALOGUE COT
    *******************************************************************************
    [ID]    [Org]         [Type]        [Description]                              
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2207    CoT           Instruments   an exquisite ravenwood viola
    2453    CoT           Thrones       a throne of jeweled flowers and leaves
    2500    CoT           Thrones       a druidic throne of living wood
    2527    CoT           Couches       a divan couch of luxurious white fur
    2533    CoT           Thrones       a shadowed throne upon a silver dais
    2595    CoT           Boxes         a nautical rope keg
    3436    CoT           Boxes         a cryptic raven puzzle box
    3452    CoT           Instruments   a golden honeysap lyre
    3516    CoT           Instruments   a twisted nymph violin
    *******************************************************************************

    Advantages of doing all the work to support this:
    • It offers something unique to aethershops, hopefully bringing people back into cities and communes. Free sales and shopkeeping are still the unique benefit of manses, but it opens up a different aspect of commerce to the general populace who may not yet be able to afford their own store.
    • It provides a mechanical system for browsing and selecting particular items for crafting - rather than just finding the best of what's available.
    • It offers a potential gold sink for transaction fees, and provides cities/communes with an alternate income to shops (through cartel registries)
    Okay, so I may have made this a bit of a long proposal, but I think it would be fun to use. I know I'd certainly make sure to pop into different nations to browse the designs, at least!
  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    Slightly amended proposal for the buy orders - allowing for some minimum/maximum variables (so you can't troll someone by selling items with 1-2 months left). Yes, this may be waaaaaaay too much coding, but it's fun to think about!

    • <tradeskill> REQUEST NEW [<quantity>] (<item>|(<cartel>|PUBLIC) <type> <designnum>) FOR <x> GOLD [LASTING <y> MONTHS] - Draft a buy order for either a basic item or general item type (eg. 1000 YARROW, SWORD, 5 SCROLL), or a specific design pattern from a cartel or public listing (eg. GREYTHANES SCROLL 26392, PUBLIC TRINKET 176).
    • <tradeskill> REQUEST <order id> PRICE <amount> [GOLD] - Change the the price you are paying
    • <tradeskill> REQUEST <order id> GOODS (SET|ADD|REMOVE) [<quantity>] (<item>|(<cartel>|PUBLIC) <type> <designnum>) - Change, add or remove the items that are part of your request.
    • <tradeskill> REQUEST <order id> (MINIMUM|MAXIMUM) <modifier> <amount> - Place a minimum or maximum requirements on your draft order (such as number of months remaining). Note this will apply to all items if you have multiple on your order.
    • <tradeskill> REQUEST <order id> SUBMIT - Place your buy order for others to see, paying the lodgement fee
    • <tradeskill> REQUEST <order id> CANCEL - Delete your pending buy order. If submitted, you will not recover the listing fee, however you will receive back the gold held in escrow for payment to the supplier.

    Example of syntax:

    :FORGING REQUEST 4 SILVERSTEEL LEATHER 2269 FOR 200 GOLD LASTING 2 MONTHS
    You create a new draft work order with the auctioneer (#53763).
    
    :FORGING REQUEST 53763 PRICE 2500 GOLD
    You adjust the total proposed payment for your work order to 2500 golden
    sovereigns.
    
    :FORGING REQUEST 53763 GOODS ADD 2 PUBLIC 2180
    You add 2 glittering diamond daggers to your requested work order.
    
    :FORGING REQUEST 53763 GOODS REMOVE
    What item do you wish to remove?
      [1] 4 x green leather vests of the white tree
      [2] 2 x glittering diamond daggers
    Syntax: FORGING REQUEST 53763 GOODS REMOVE <num>
    
    :FORGING REQUEST 53763 MINIMUM
    You may set the following modifiers on your Forging work order request:
      DECAYMONTHS : applies to all items that can decay on your order
      ARMOUR      : applies to any armour items on your order
      PRECISION   : applies to any weapon items on your order
      
    :FORGING REQUEST 53763 MINIMUM DECAYMONTHS 50
    You set the minimum number of months before decay to 50 for relevant
    items on your order.
    
    :FORGING REQUEST 53763 MAXIMUM ARMOUR 10
    You set the maximum armour protection percent to 10 for relevant items
    on your order.
    
    :FORGING REQUEST 53763 SUBMIT
    You are about to request 4 green leather vests of the white tree and
    2 glittering diamond daggers for a total price of 2500 golden
    sovereigns, lasting 2 Lusternian months. This will incur
    a listing fee of 42 gold.
    Do you AGREE to this listing? :AGREE You post your listing for 42 gold, depositing your payment of 2500 golden sovereigns into escrow. :FORGING ORDERS -(id)--(Description)-------------------------------(Mths)-(Price)- 53763   4 x green leather vests of the white tree, 2 2    2500gp :FORGING ORDERS INFO 53763 +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Time left   :         2mth   Price        :              2500gp | | Time listed :         0mth   Requested by :               Elryn | | Requested item(s):                                              | | + Silversteel Cartel + | |  [      4] a green leather vest of the white tr (Leather #2269) | | + Public Designs + | | [ 2] a glittering diamond dagger (Blades #2180) | | Additional requirements: | | [ 50] minimum months before decay | | [ 10] maximum armour percentage | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ :FORGING REQUEST 53763 CANCEL This will cancel your pending work order request for 4 green leather vests of the white tree and 2 glittering diamond daggers, forfeiting the listing fee. Do you AGREE to cancel this request? :AGREE You cancel your pending work order request, retrieving 2500 golden sovereigns from escrow.
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