Goldflation II

Estarra

So I received from Synkarin and others some ideas on dealing with goldflation. I'm mostly thinking of focusing on dust right now (better name so not to confuse it with purity dust and glaetherial dust?). Feedback welcome!

Aether Mines

• Not sure how to resolve this, but do not want to remove them. Ideas welcome!
• Idea: Charge 50 gold/commodity. -10 gold for upkeep, -10 gold for overalls.

Essence Dust

Uses

• Convert to quest essence - silvery, shadowy, etc. (10 dust/essence)
• Alchemy skill to make fruit pizzazz, kiwi punch, golden tonic, argleblaster (100 dust/potion)
• Cooking skill to make magic candy (100 dust/candy)
• Convert to goop (1000 dust/goop)
• Other uses?

Generation

• Presents - replace candy, gold, potion and commodity generation with dust
  • Standard (50-200 dust)
  • Superior (300-500 dust)
  • Exceptional (600-1000 dust)
• Wheel Spins - replace candy, gold, potion and commodity generation with dust
  • 100-1000 dust
• Curio Maps - replace gold with dust
  • 50-100 dust
• Genies - replace commodity and potion generation with dust
  • 50-100 dust
• ur'Traps
  • In addition to regular cookies:
    • Small creatures: 50-100 dust
    • Medium creatures 300-500 dust
    • Large creatures 600-1000 dust
• Aether Commerce
  • Instead of gold, gnomes trade in dust

Transfer Tax

• 1000 gold/credit to transfer credits
• 1000 gold/dingbat to transfer credits
• 10 gold/dust to transfer essence dust

Org/Guild/Order things to help remove gold

• Construct commodity increases (potentially needing to keep it 'powered')
• City/Commune additions costing a lot
• Discretionary Powers having a gold cost in addition to power
• Shrine raising having a gold/commodity cost
• changing the cult power that lets you use cult essence to sanctify shrines to boost the use of esteem.

Ssaliss

There'd probably be a need to balance the cost of comms out of the aethermines, or some comms will become ridiculously expensive. Probably between 5 gold per (for meat etc) up to 50 gold per (for steel), with corresponding differences for upkeeping/overalls.

Luce

Maybe as a name, use unit(s) of raw essence?

The Transfer tax will absolutely need to be waived for org, order, and guild/not-a-guild credits.

Yarith

All of these look like great changes. The team did great!

Edit: Let's really make disc. powers hurt tho

Demartel

I don't really like the transfer tax to be honest. It just means I will stop helping newbies with giving them credits, since that is the majority of my transfers.

Ssaliss

Oh, btw, will there be a non-artie/non-aetherways way to make dust? Some quests that might be changed from gold to dust instead?

Estarra

Luce said:

Maybe as a name, use unit(s) of raw essence?

The Transfer tax will absolutely need to be waived for org, order, and guild/not-a-guild credits.

Transfer tax may be controversial (at least in discussions in the Havens). Not sure how we'd work it in the end, if at all.

"Units" seem a little OOC or at least unsexy. Maybe essence grains? Other ideas?

Dylara

I really don't like the transfer tax. 

As an example, 100 credits transferred would cost 100k, which really sucks.

Ssaliss

Essence motes, perhaps?

Ssaliss

Also, re: transfer tax, even if it doesn't apply to trading from person to person, then perhaps adding it to the credit market might work? Would get rid of some of the people who simply buy to resell.

Luce

Spitballing here, but would it be a good idea to create a few quests that anyone can do on a recurring basis to generate a (very limited) number of commodities for free? Like, first 10 cows turned in puts a single leather, milk, or meat into your rift and the counter won't reset until weaving.

Mrak

Estarra said:

• Alchemy skill to make fruit pizzazz, kiwi punch, golden tonic, argleblaster (100 dust/potion)
• Cooking skill to make magic candy (100 dust/candy)
• Convert to goop (1000 dust/goop)
• Other uses?

I am psyched about all of these ideas, but these seem....really good. With the current numbers, I think I could get a couple goop a day just from farming my ur'traps. While this would be extremely beneficial to me, I'd imagine these ratios need to go up some to be balanced.

Ssaliss

Personally, I'd not suggest adding even more free comms, even though that generation would be overshadowed by the aethermines.

Tremula

I don't personally like shrine raising having a cost WITHOUT drawing from a Divine Tithing system that the Gods or their Avatars/High Priests can set (anything from 10-100 gold every in-game year that can help cover the cost of things before the priests have to pay out of pocket) that will fire every tic unless you have 0 gold (which should never happen unless you go inactive), at which point it will begin draining a minute amount of essence (the same amount of gold you would pay) maybe?

Really rough "I just woke up and I'm still a little drunk" post. Feel free to tear it up.

Demartel

Not to mention you are punishing people for selling credits.. just calling it 'tax' in general is a bad idea. Nobody looks at taxes as a good thing.. unless! you mean it is a tax refund!! We get 1000/gold per credit as a tax refund! >.>

CyndarinAscends

Essence for goop is a rich get richer scheme. There are some very expensive artifacts that you can get for goop, like cameos, and cubixes, and circlets, along with some unique items like the pendant of vitality. 

Instead of generating gold, people will be generating pseudo credits for artifacts. 

(Speaking as an already credit rich player)

Luce

Mostly suggesting it as a QoL measure to make sure people can't be locked out of being able to get necessities once the comm prices start rising. It may take you a couple weeks, but you can work your way up to basic equipment on your own, sort of deal.

Ssaliss

Tremula said:

I don't personally like shrine raising having a cost WITHOUT drawing from a Divine Tithing system that the Gods or their Avatars/High Priests can set (anything from 10-100 gold every in-game year that can help cover the cost of things before the priests have to pay out of pocket) that will fire every tic unless you have 0 gold (which should never happen unless you go inactive), at which point it will begin draining a minute amount of essence (the same amount of gold you would pay) maybe?

Really rough "I just woke up and I'm still a little drunk" post. Feel free to tear it up.

I'm assuming you're talking about raising shrine powers. What the suggestion is is that putting up an entirely new shrine would eat up comms/gold.

Estarra

Maybe 10k grains/units/dust per goop? Would that be more reasonable?

Estarra

BTW, any of the numbers for any of the generation ideas can be adjusted. They're just there to get something down!

Ssaliss

Luce said:

Mostly suggesting it as a QoL measure to make sure people can't be locked out of being able to get necessities once the comm prices start rising. It may take you a couple weeks, but you can work your way up to basic equipment on your own, sort of deal.

I'm not too worried about that, to be honest. We managed to get our equipment before aethermines were a thing, after all, and the big problem with aethermines are (at least IMHO) that they generate comms from absolutely nothing. The comms will still be generated, and odds are they won't soar too much higher than they are today. A little, perhaps, but not overwhelmingly so.

Yarith

You could also have one of those dinger items to turn gold into the new dust stuff x times per rl day similar to the gold minting machine.
(At a consuming rate, of course)

Demartel

I also think all shrine powers should cost gold. Make personal powers be bought with less karma/more personal gold and the gold goes into the Order's coffers to finance the big powers which cost gold. It doesn't remove it from the game until you use Disc. Shrine powers, but it allows a way to fund your order's shrine usage.

Tremula

Use it for both. Say we're using Drocilla's Order as an example, and all of the higher-ups go dormant for....four IRL months or so. The Order still has to do things, and responsibilities get fosted on some new person coming in, including shrine management. That person has to add the cost of raising  (and using?)shrines to their combat and vital upkeep, manse growing, or whatever they were already using their gold for to a suddenly lot smaller looking pool of wealth. 

The tax would help these people if someone like Xenthos or...Arimisia were to go dormant. They wouldn't miss any of that gold at end of year, but a little buffer for the new person to work with would be HUGE to them. And if there are 20 people dormant in the order, that's 2000 sleeping gold (at a 100 gold tithe) that slowly accumulates for raising that new shrine (and using it?).

Not looking to start an argument about how easy gold gaining is for middled people, just using it as an example that actually happened and applying the new (tentative) rules to that.

Tremula

Also Demartel's suggestion. I like that.

Phoebus

Dylara said:

I really don't like the transfer tax. 

As an example, 100 credits transferred would cost 100k, which really sucks.

Yeah, not liking that idea at all. Why would you propose that we discourage the transfer of credits...? I don't see how it would accomplish anything except make people more likely to keep their wealth to themselves. One of the things that helped me stick around when I first started was a very nice person giving me 100 credits, and this might not have happened if it would've cost 100k to do so. Please don't start adding taxes and gold costs onto mechanics for the sake of it. It's only going to serve to make those mechanics less attractive and more negative, not drive people to spend their gold.

Ssaliss

Estarra said:

Maybe 10k grains/units/dust per goop? Would that be more reasonable?

To be entirely honest, I'd rather not see them be turned into goop at all. Since the only sources are arties/aetherspace (and aetherspace isn't exactly used a whole lot these days), it'd essentially end up like owning artifacts to generate more artifacts for you...

Dylara

I'm fine with making discretionary cost gold, orgs have lots of gold stockpiled. You can make a specific account to funnel the gold into, make it be used up after using a power, kind of like how each ministry has its own bank account. I do recall someone saying after Factions come in that the main org, rather than factions, would be controlling security (correct me if wrong). The same could be done with order stuff, like Demartel is suggesting.

Demartel

Here is a basic example of what I mean:

Shrine Heal: 10,000 gold - 5% karma - Gold gets placed in Order's Discretionary funds

Shrine Wrath: 200,000 gold to activate from Order's Discretionary fund
Shrine Invasion: 500,000 gold to activate from Order's Discretionary fund

and so on

I would also suggest making invasion mobs worth using at that cost. Right now they are just free bashing for the raiders.

TBH very few new shrines get raised so raising the cost of them will not help much. Making Shrine powers cost money will sink far more gold.

Dylara

Phoebus said:

Dylara said:

I really don't like the transfer tax. 

As an example, 100 credits transferred would cost 100k, which really sucks.

Yeah, not liking that idea at all. Why would you propose that we discourage the transfer of credits...? I don't see how it would accomplish anything except make people more likely to keep their wealth to themselves. One of the things that helped me stick around when I first started was a very nice person giving me 100 credits, and this might not have happened if it would've cost 100k to do so. Please don't start adding taxes and gold costs onto mechanics for the sake of it. It's only going to serve to make those mechanics less attractive and more negative, not drive people to spend their gold.

I've had people help me out with credits, a few here or there to get me to trans if I've been really close. I don't see this happening as often if we have to lose large chunks of gold to do so.

Phoebus

Let people offer larger amounts of gold, draw from the pool of offered gold for power stuff? That'd be nice. Track people's gold contributions like an offer log, people love making their numbers go up and being at the top of a list.