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  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight
    Veyils said:
    Shielding wont counter a succumb that can get you from full mana to a toad range in the space of a stun. Because you can't shield during stuns Yarith.
    I'm sorry, there's -plenty- of other things that can kill you in the time of a shieldstun, as you yourself demonstrated, in a group. So please, it's very obvious you hate succumb, We've been working to get succumb into a range where it's not nasty  (and more balanced, though am not sure if we'll ever get it out of the awkward zone. Still more in favour of scrapping and retrying it )  but it will remain a threat, it's supposed to be a threat, really. you will have to act when you are succumbed in a group setup, just as you have to act when you're hit by aurics under octave, or being deathsonged or being chasmned or whatnot. let's keep this discussion civil, please?


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  • Group combat has always exacerbated certain offenses. This is not unique to succumb. I don't see why it should be unfairly singled out.
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  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight
    Group combat has always exacerbated certain offenses. This is not unique to succumb. I don't see why it should be unfairly singled out.
    sorry, my english fails me right now. That's not in response to what I said, is it?
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  • edited March 2017
    Succumbs being singled out because of the speed you can get killed with it. Literally no other ability can be used to kill someone in the space of a single stun.

    Deathsong requires eight seconds (and I actually agree is a bit overpowered in a specific group setting and I've suggested nerfs to it as well)

    EDIT: To expand on the deathsong thing actually. Its got a set counter in the way of blind but not every class can blind reliably. It can be countered with gust but well thats luck based, I can and have resisted six gusts in a row. Etc etc. I've suggested a blind enchantment or something like that so that every class has a way to counter deathsong, also suggested lowering earache to not be longer than 8 eight seconds because I think its super silly I can set up a death song on someone with a single blank note.

    So there are certain situations where I can literally just deathsong people and it goes off due to pure luck of me resisting all the gusts, their ear ache lasting over 9 seconds etc etc.

    EDIT: I've also suggested a nerf to reflections for one on one combat after discovering that I'm basically immune to warriors with it.

    Like I think inquisition or the bard auric set up is super powerful but I don't think its overpowered. It's got clear warnings and plenty of time to run from it even with a group doing it to you. The way succumb works though is you can literally cast succumb on a target under certain stuns and have the target toadable before that stun ends.

    I mean we had people complaining about how a monk could kill them in under 115 seconds with straight up damage, imagine how much these people would be complaining if they had to deal with succumb :D
  • A well-coordinated handful of Shadowdancers lashing will achieve the same effect. Or any guild that can manadrain+manakill, actually. The stun allows for a larger margin of error, sure, but all of it can go by pretty fast.
    WHY WE FIGHT
    Accountability is necessary.
  • A well-coordinated handful of Shadowdancers lashing will achieve the same effect. Or any guild that can manadrain+manakill, actually. The stun allows for a larger margin of error, sure, but all of it can go by pretty fast.
    Your kind of right there with most ego or mana kills or just kill set ups in general but the difference is the amount of people needed. You'd need a coordinated team of five to ego/mana kill me in a balance any other way other than succumb. 

    I mean I could quad auric and dchord a target with five bards instantly as well. Or get half a dozen druids to instant rend. (Which is a bit silly and probably should be fixed in someway before it starts to get abused) Issue with succumb is I can make people toad able in a single standard balance with just one person supporting me.

    There's no other set up in the game with a one balance instant kill with that few people setting it up. I mean the consensus is that its a fairly overpowered ability, coming from envoys from Hallifax, Serenwilde, everywhere etc etc and its a case of trying to come up with a solution thats good for the Moondancers and good for the game.


  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    So, uh, can I see a log of you being toadcursed via succumb in a single stun, so that I know you're not grossly hyperbolizing? I'm actually semi-serious here, because I'm not fighting MDs on a regular basis.

    image
  • edited March 2017
    I think you're incorrect entirely. 
    When you say 'No ability can kill people in a single stun' you're really being vague and obtuse. 
    Any and everything can kill you in a single stun, with a varying amount of people. That's what group pvp is.
    If you get three nihilist in a room, shieldstun, crux, crunch, demons all do their various things, and suddenly you have a sacrifice within a single stun window.

    If you aren't curing mental affs and have 6 on you to put you within insta range within the stun, then you clearly have at least 3 people hitting you. The same death in one stun kill can be accomplished by near anything including three timed lashes with banshees, three double powersink amissios, pretty much any conditional insta.
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • edited March 2017
    I'm caught up on how deathsong is "overpowered" when we have earache balance in place to counter it, you're not getting an deathsong off without serious coordination.

    I don't have the exact math but earache is random (if I am not misremembering) from 3-7 seconds while deathsong goes off at 8. So if they start deathsong and earache procs as high as 7s you still will have time to eat earwort, tell clt to gust dsonger, if you do it on a trigger. 

    It's a great instakill, but it's definitely not overpowered since it's easily stopped with gust, eat earwort, moving from the room etc.
    The deep, rumbling voice of Weiwae says from within your heart, "I am so happy to hear of your progress, and I thank you for bringing my influence over more shards of My Brother Tae."
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight

    It's a great instakill, but it's definitely not overpowered since it's easily stopped with gust, eat earwort, moving from the room etc.
    walking out stops succumb, shielding stops succumb, the prismatic of your choice does, hindering the hexen will stop it, and so on. The main problem it has, is that it hits very fast in a group scenario, which is why wobou has made the change he has. If it turns out to still not be enough, I'm sure we'll consider another nerf to it. Why are we having this argument again?

    P.S. I never meant to imply that deathsong is overpowered the way succumb is, it's very powerful and a good example how a good group setup will wreck you fast.

    P.P.S could also considering increase the tick time if that's a better fix ( to give people more chance to actually be able to get their shield up ).

    P.P.P.S  want to clarify that am NOT a fan of succumb, mostly because, while it sounded great when it was originally suggested by someone on the forums, I kind of feel the way it turned out is a balance nightmare both for the MD side and for the opponent side. There's a reason you see me being a healer most of the time. I still am always glad to have a conversation on people having a civilized and constructive conversation on alternatives.
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  • edited March 2017
    I'll dig out a few logs. In response to Yarith though you should read up on your skills your class can give. Lets off the top of my head see a Hex Moondancer and an Tarot guardian could hit for 9 mental afflictions between them in the space of a standard threeish second balance. Lets say your not hindered in curing at all that's you with 6 mental afflictions come the succumb hit. Boom Absolvable. 

     
  • edited March 2017
    You should probably read up on the defences available to you. You have whitetea, chaos karma, death karma. In groups, even in the south, you have several roomwide affcures through sources like undeadblues/vileblood.

    Yes a hexen can whammy all 6 of their hexes at you for 1+s per bal but if they fling all 3 sets of whammy you're going to have a window afterwards to sip/sparkle/scroll when the stun ends before they can toadcurse you. 

    If you have any real, actual concrete concerns you can pass them onto your envoys and I am sure they will bring it up in address through the proper means.

    EDIT:
    Believe it or not, if you pair any two or three of any two or three given classes you can probably kill someone in a three second stun. Just read up on their skillsets :)

    EDIT*2: And, let's take your scenario for example. 
    If it's 2v2 with a wiccan and a guardian, if you have a friend with any capability they can sprinkle salt around you and suddenly either of the guardian or wiccan will have to expend 3s to break your shield and you suddenly survive the window. Is it viable longterm? Probably not but you can disengage succumb. 

    I'm not arguing that succumb is fine, but arguing that it's in a bad place because it has the potential to kill people in a stun in groups is, well, a breach of parity. :)
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • edited March 2017
    Lynnie said:
    I'm caught up on how deathsong is "overpowered" when we have earache balance in place to counter it, you're not getting an deathsong off without serious coordination.

    I don't have the exact math but earache is random (if I am not misremembering) from 3-7 seconds while deathsong goes off at 8. So if they start deathsong and earache procs as high as 7s you still will have time to eat earwort, tell clt to gust dsonger, if you do it on a trigger. 

    It's a great instakill, but it's definitely not overpowered since it's easily stopped with gust, eat earwort, moving from the room etc.
    Actually, earache can exceed deathsong timer (needs to be envoyed to a more reasonable range). Its randomness is highly bothersome on all sides.

    Saying easily countered by earwort, moving rooms and gust is also just not pragmatic as a reliable counter. Earwort (see above). Moving rooms (pfifth). Gust (fail once and you likely die, also icewalls). Serious coordination is perhaps an overstatement. One decently timed shieldstun and they die, for example. I wouldn't call that "serious coordination."
    image
  • edited March 2017
    Aeldra said:

    It's a great instakill, but it's definitely not overpowered since it's easily stopped with gust, eat earwort, moving from the room etc.
    walking out stops succumb, shielding stops succumb, the prismatic of your choice does, hindering the hexen will stop it, and so on. The main problem it has, is that it hits very fast in a group scenario, which is why wobou has made the change he has. If it turns out to still not be enough, I'm sure we'll consider another nerf to it. Why are we having this argument again?

    P.S. I never meant to imply that deathsong is overpowered the way succumb is, it's very powerful and a good example how a good group setup will wreck you fast.

    wasn't @You
    Veyils said:


    Deathsong requires eight seconds (and I actually agree is a bit overpowered in a specific group setting and I've suggested nerfs to it as well)

    The deep, rumbling voice of Weiwae says from within your heart, "I am so happy to hear of your progress, and I thank you for bringing my influence over more shards of My Brother Tae."
  • Shedrin said:
    If the argument is that 4 or so people can instakill you, or after one round of balances, then that's not unique to Succumb.

    However Succumb is clearly too much mana drain, which is the motivation for report. I'm disappointed we couldn't go with the tracking the source of the afflictions, that would've given a solid foundation for balancing it for groups and solo, but alas, coding resources are limited.

    Completely agree.

    It also would have given a solid foundation for envoying other skills in similar situations or that lack solo ability to build them up to be effective solo without burdening group combat.
  • edited March 2017
    Group combat has always exacerbated certain offenses. This is not unique to succumb. I don't see why it should be unfairly singled out.

    Rofl. Unfairly singled out? If players create a new balance concern through an envoy report, it is 100% fair to address the repercussions of that report. Single player balance is never an excuse to throw out multi player balance, and your reasoning is ridiculous. Envoys do not get free passes to break group mechanics to fix their solo mechanics. 

    I have no idea what succumb is doing mana drain wise or if the numbers are fair or not, but as Shedrin kind of pointed out with the desired solution, drains that stack with generally available afflictions are a fundamentally different balance problem than class specific drains like "if X number of SDs all drain your mana at the same time..." Any argument that X number specific Y class can do the same thing is not relevant. Everyone has mental affs, so anything that scales off of universally available affs has to account for significantly more situations than, for example, the MD counterpart in shadowtwist. Without specific limitations, such as one shadow per target, balance is a nightmare. 

    TL;DR: Envoys dropped the ball by making a mana drain that scales passively off of everyone. People are allowed to be irritated for exploding under mental aff spam/toad. 

    Shield is a solo solution, it's always been the counter to burst offenses like hexes. Shield is not a group solution. You guys need better triggers or something. 


    Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    Why did you sign your post? Goofball  :)
  • So something I've been thinking about a bit, especially with the recent increase in the number of active chemwood players, is how to mitigate damage spam in groups.

    I don't necessarily want to just straight nerf damage or aoe (though individual abilities should be looked at), but I want to introduce more counters, and I think the best way is new cool abilities, things you can do actively to save yourself or allies. Right now there's a few things people can do if they're the right class, you can lust someone unleashing a bomb or put paranoia on them, and you can Bolster someone being targeted.

    I'd like a few more things along that line. One idea I had was to make pacifism also disable the afflicted's enemy list.

    Wondering if anyone else has some thoughts on this.
  • edited March 2017
    Shedrin said:
    So something I've been thinking about a bit, especially with the recent increase in the number of active chemwood players, is how to mitigate damage spam in groups.

    I don't necessarily want to just straight nerf damage or aoe (though individual abilities should be looked at), but I want to introduce more counters, and I think the best way is new cool abilities, things you can do actively to save yourself or allies. Right now there's a few things people can do if they're the right class, you can lust someone unleashing a bomb or put paranoia on them, and you can Bolster someone being targeted.

    I'd like a few more things along that line. One idea I had was to make pacifism also disable the afflicted's enemy list.

    Wondering if anyone else has some thoughts on this.

    Pacifism stops all passive effects, songs, melds, etc. Sounds good.

    EDIT: If your looking for being able to save people would it be too much to make serpent a targeted ability? Cast it on an ally?
  • I'm a little late to the party, sorry, but I'm overseas, so I have an excuse, I guess. I also felt I needed to weigh in on this because of all the discussion about group combat and succumb.

    Just to put it out there, I feel that the original succumb idea, which was based off a concept by Azula and tweaked with numbers by me, was a pretty balanced one. I feel sad that we never really did get that off the ground properly, but well, it's far too late to be crying over spilled milk now - it's been so long since that original report that there's been time for the milk to stain the floor irreparably, and then for a carpenter to replace it. Instead, if Aeldra prefers to rework it entirely, I think that might not be an entirely bad idea after all. I do like reworking stuff, myself.

    That said, just to put it out there too, the original idea wasn't really aimed at making succumb be applicable as a group mechanic. I can say that partly because I participated in the brainstorming for it, of course, but also because that was written into the original concept itself: the "execution" of the succumb/wane concept was meant to be a single MD thing, much like the way two SDs can't get each get a shadow of the same person, the original concept locked the waning MD (for the big mana burst) to the succumbing MD.

    Original succumb/wane wasn't meant to be a group thing at all - which was why the numbers (for the execution) was that high. It was meant to bring someone from 100 to 0 through exponential scaling, rewarding the MD who could actually pull it off with a pretty much guarantee'd instakill.

    The discussion about how two people of other certain combinations can kill in just as fast a time etc, are missing the point a little, I feel, because the mechanic in its conception was not meant to be applicable in group combat. The implementation turned out different from the concept, which happens all the time, of course, and as a result, follow up tweaks are needed. If it is to be group-applicable, naturally, some of the core tenets of the original design (exponential scaling of mana drain to mental afflictions) will have to go. The drains will need to be drastically cut down. The mana drain delivery will need to be re-thought from scratch. Synergy will need to be applied in a different way. Etc, etc. Whatever the new succumb will be, I'm sure Aeldra will find something that's fun and balanced. We'll just have to wait and see.

  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Gate bombs behind new protection, give chems dissolve.

    You're welcome, game.
    image
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Do bombs do less damage if more enemies are in the room? If so, maybe that can be a thing.

    Alternately, make bombs a channeled effect. Drain one power every two? seconds. Full effect after 4 seconds, partial damage if interrupted by chem loses channel
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Chemwoods need to be reworked at some point.
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