Warrior Modifier Tweaks

2

Comments

  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    edited November 2016
    Karlach said:
    Just rework pursuance. Barely gets used as is.

    Puissance gives the warrior the ability to bypass prism for a certain amount of time? Situational but well it makes it a useful trans ability I guess.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,731 Transcendent
    edited November 2016
    It's more useful than the current prep and increase wounding on next strike when you can just power strike instead.

    Edit: Damage not wounding.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,650 Transcendent
    With greatpentagram being nerfed so much I think we could afford a nerf to serpent tbh. Scale the duration down with the number of people in the room when you cast it :D
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,650 Transcendent
    I also think lucidian demi+ should be nerfed/changed to not be so important for offences. Warriors are probably the ones who benefit most from it, but it probably affects some other classes too. We need to balance around the outliers and when the outlier can use power attacks more often than everyone else it kind of makes them mandatory if we want to keep warriors balanced.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,650 Transcendent
    edited November 2016
    As for Exsanguinate, the problem isn't with Exsanguinate itself but with the mods available to Pureblades. I actually managed to pull off exsang against Xena last night. Granted, she wasn't parrying properly, but I think even with parrying I would have eventually managed it. What really stuck out for me was that I could have been an Axelord and I wouldn't have noticed any change to my strategy because I didn't even use any mods other than Disembowel for the actual Exsanguinate. I would have been able to pull off Execute just as easily, if not easier because it only requires 2 heavy and 1 crit vs 2 crit and internal bleeding, which I missed a couple of times due to hindering. There was just nothing available to me as a Pureblade that would have helped me get that kill more easily than if I had just been an Axelord. 

    What Pureblade needs is a preferably hindering, ice aff on the chest. Warrior offences take a while to build up and any hindering done by the opponent will slow it down even further. Many classes even have multiple sources of passive hindering that will help with this. Pureblades just don't really have many options to even delay wound curing. Really, the only thing they can do in a 1v1 is mutilated legs, which Axelord can also do (on top of a few other things in their arsenal).
    Post edited by Falaeron on
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,611 Transcendent
    Uh, no. Not all classes should be given the ability to break prismatic, but I acknowledge that prismatic is too good of a skill to have no counter other than distort/dominate. That's why I gave it to AL. It should stay that way.

    RE: serpent nerf - the reason why GP was nerfed was because you essentially can stack it with other fortress skills in order to keep entire groups safe and away from the fight. Serpent protects exactly one person and there is literally no way to keep one person safe for as long of a time as you could have using GP. If you want to kill people under serpent, get an AL.
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  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    You could pop in a little enovy report looking at the racials I guess?
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,403 Transcendent
    Yeah, I've avoided posting in this thread because I'm personally not fully confident of my understanding of warrior combat yet, but GP being (justifiably) nerfed really doesn't logically lead to any indication that serpent needs to be nerfed. 

    If warriors are in a difficult position for wound building, then improvements or adjustments to the modifiers and concept behind the wound building dynamics is needed, not giving them all access to prismatic shield breaking, which is a nice, niche ability for ALs, but does nothing to actually improve wound building of any sort.

  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,731 Transcendent
    I think the latest idea was that puissance changes to allow the warrior to bypass prismatics for x amount of time, not necessarily destroy them.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    Serpent has some concerns but it's beyond just Warriors, imo.

    Getting back to mods:

    It's my impression that CollapsedLung and CrushedChest aren't used too much (please correct me if I'm wrong). CollapsedLung especially can mess up a Bashbrain with blackout immunity. Both are BC only, and no other spec has any ice affliction on chest.

    There were some ideas thrown around for CollapsedLung, and I threw around some on some clans earlier. Here's an idea I like:

    Add CollapsedLung to PB at either Heavy or Crit, with a new effect:
     - Disrupt equilibrium, every 6-8s.
    or
     - 2s balance loss every 6-8s + prone on hit.

    This would add a worthwhile mod to PB on chest, and one which isn't wounds-negative. I imagine most of the time it'd cure before you'd get a second proc of the effect unless they were already locked down by allies. I think it'd also work for BM, which could use the hinder option and ice afflict as well.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,731 Transcendent
    Still on my previous stance regarding further additions to PB right now, but if we're adding anything I'd like to see sever nerve return, damaged arm + epilepsy, to give support to tendons with regard to keeping a target prone for any length of time to build offence on gut/chest.

    Alternatively bring back amputates, allowing for large amounts of bleed for a twist kill.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    Karlach said:
    Still on my previous stance regarding further additions to PB right now, but if we're adding anything I'd like to see sever nerve return, damaged arm + epilepsy, to give support to tendons with regard to keeping a target prone for any length of time to build offence on gut/chest.

    Alternatively bring back amputates, allowing for large amounts of bleed for a twist kill.
    Do you mean collapsednerve?

    I don't think new afflictions are gonna be approved.

    For bleed specifically, I think looking into making InternalBleeding more worthwhile would be a decent way to go.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,731 Transcendent
    Yeah sever was the medium version that didn't give epilepsy.

    We still have mutilated  arm afflictions that render an arm useless right? That + epilepsy would essentially do what collapsed nerve did for PB prior.

    I suppose if IB can be reworked for the bleed route , then it might be more viable than reintroducing amputates as an affliction (albeit less fun)

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    Shedrin said:
    Serpent has some concerns but it's beyond just Warriors, imo.

    Getting back to mods:

    It's my impression that CollapsedLung and CrushedChest aren't used too much (please correct me if I'm wrong). CollapsedLung especially can mess up a Bashbrain with blackout immunity. Both are BC only, and no other spec has any ice affliction on chest.

    There were some ideas thrown around for CollapsedLung, and I threw around some on some clans earlier. Here's an idea I like:

    Add CollapsedLung to PB at either Heavy or Crit, with a new effect:
     - Disrupt equilibrium, every 6-8s.
    or
     - 2s balance loss every 6-8s + prone on hit.

    This would add a worthwhile mod to PB on chest, and one which isn't wounds-negative. I imagine most of the time it'd cure before you'd get a second proc of the effect unless they were already locked down by allies. I think it'd also work for BM, which could use the hinder option and ice afflict as well.


    Right now both afflictions are sort of useless, collapsed lung throws a 1 second blackout periodically and its cured pretty quick as well. Dosn't do any hinder or help build wounds.

    Crushedchest throws a very short equilibrium disrupt but again you generally can cure it before the disrupt hits you.

    You can give them to pureblade as much as you want but if I was a pureblade I wouldn't be using either of them.

    As a pureblade the only mods I would use are impale and leg tendon for hinder and then throwing out the internal just for the instantkill. Which is pretty identical as what I'd use as an axelord, without imaple, where the only modifier I really use is legtendon for hinder.


  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    I think a chest mod would be superior as it'll benefit you while you build towards Exsang. Similar with IB and gut.

    Though PB has poor arm mods, so adding something there could be good.
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    Veyils said:

    You can give them to pureblade as much as you want but if I was a pureblade I wouldn't be using either of them.


    But would you use it with the suggested new effect?
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 26 Novice
    Crushed chest currently causes periodic loss to EQ, Ice cure, and increases damage from Bruising when procced. Collapsedlung as is would  be horrible for BC due to the uncontrolled nature of the Blackout, and it's real only use is to slow runners from escaping as it has a chance to prone and stun them if they move too quickly. If changed from blackout to periodically cause asthma, that'd be more useful. PB also lacks ANY head afflict save sliththroat at Heavy, just to point out, a light ice wound mod like Furrowbrow to cause blindness till cured and some reoccuring bleeding a la Internalbleeding would also be a good as well.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,650 Transcendent
    Read what Shedrin proposed for what collapsedlung could be changed to.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 771 Mythical
    You could make mutilated limbs from PB do a large bleed hit (with perhaps a second tic if you don't cure it).  Thus imitating the bleed of amputate, but without adding a new affliction.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,650 Transcendent
    So... like pinleg and the inherent bleeding boost from wounded body parts?
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    edited November 2016
    Shedrin said:
    I think a chest mod would be superior as it'll benefit you while you build towards Exsang. Similar with IB and gut.

    Though PB has poor arm mods, so adding something there could be good.

    EDIT: "I thought you ment just give it a disrupt like the current scabies or epilepsy which in that case no I would not use it."

    Wait are you saying give it a 2 second disrupt on hit and then a disrupt every 6-8 seconds? And at heavy wounds right?

    Even with that I'd probably not want to use it except in very exceptional circumstances.

    I mean in comparison we have knock down as an axelord which gives about a 2 second disrupt and its not on a main kill area. Its not really useful to build to a kill because the disrupt is way way too short to have any real effect on hindering and an axelord or pureblade are just better off just attacking again to build one leg wound to heavy legs for tendon then your getting a stun which does the same disrupt on its own plus a leg wound to stop monks kicks and then once both legs are at heavy you have the best hinder in the game near enough.

    Knockdown is good for groups but only because its at light wounds.

    So if you were giving pureblade a chest disrupt of balance/equi for 2 seconds on hit at light wounds that is cured via an ice application and can reoccur then yes I'd probably use it then as its a fair bit superior to knockdown but if your saying it's got to be at heavy or higher then I can't see it getting too much use.

    I mean an ice application on chest that disrupts would be technically better than knock down in terms of building wounds. Once the changes go though that'd be 5 wounds plus 1 ice application to cure. So it would be a wounds positive attack.

  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,731 Transcendent
    I like Ciaran's suggestion for mutilated limbs. I must admit part of the reason for bringing back amputates was the flavour of limbs everywhere , but this would certainly address the mechanical aspect.

    Going back to IB, someone (apologies I forgot who) suggested the target takes damage while  clotting, like a clot version of mana spikes.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    Falmiis said:
    So... like pinleg and the inherent bleeding boost from wounded body parts?

    It's not as if pinleg itself does enough bleeding to force people to low mana. You probably wouldn't notice it solo.

    It'd be pretty awesome in groups though pureblades would be able to spam legtendon while building up high bleed stacks.
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    Like I said right now solo axelord and pureblade are basically identical, legtendon or wounding strikes everything else is a waste of time.
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    Mutilates are gonna be the strongest hinder options, and I think should remain that way, so I don't mind if a new CollapsedLung is weaker. I think it'd be useful enough for an option when parry is on legs or lack of wounds, or when the 2her report is in, to add some wounds while hindering. Alternatively up the power level even more and make it Crit only.

    Karlach said:
    I like Ciaran's suggestion for mutilated limbs. I must admit part of the reason for bringing back amputates was the flavour of limbs everywhere , but this would certainly address the mechanical aspect.

    Going back to IB, someone (apologies I forgot who) suggested the target takes damage while  clotting, like a clot version of mana spikes.
    Clearly I'll make a report to bring back limbs, scalps and ears.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,615 Transcendent
    Karlach said:
    I like Ciaran's suggestion for mutilated limbs. I must admit part of the reason for bringing back amputates was the flavour of limbs everywhere , but this would certainly address the mechanical aspect.

    Liked the flavour of limbs everywhere too. Requested it get added back with Lines report. Fingers crossed.


    I think all 2-hander specs will do a lot better once you can combine affs and wounds.


    Re: Guard. However, I feel like cavalier lost a lot of its 1v1 power with the overhaul, with no real tradeoff. I'm ok with the wounds on guard being halved, even ended up asking for that in a report. Not okay with crapping on it further than that. I miss guard being able to proc affs, and would be totally okay with it not wounding sometimes, in exchange for doing an aff here and there + poison.


  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    I don't think warriors need to combine affs and wounds. I don't believe warriors are struggling to build wounds in general. I think 2hers in general have significantly more wounding power while 1hers have more flexibility and options. To be honest, at this point. I think it's probably a good idea to maybe make a few spec-specific tweaks and then sit on things and really see how they play out. Warriors have been in constant flux and I think the big issues have been addressed and fixed. 



    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,731 Transcendent
    Yeah. I'm still not advocating any of these till we get to test out impending changes.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    Synkarin said:
    I don't think warriors need to combine affs and wounds. I don't believe warriors are struggling to build wounds in general. I think 2hers in general have significantly more wounding power while 1hers have more flexibility and options. To be honest, at this point. I think it's probably a good idea to maybe make a few spec-specific tweaks and then sit on things and really see how they play out. Warriors have been in constant flux and I think the big issues have been addressed and fixed. 



    I think people are really overestimating the slight flexibility one handers get vs the wounding power of two handers.

    Two handers right now wound faster and have better wounds at lower wound levels and two handers are also going to get a wound/affliction boost soon as well. So they are already more powerful than one hander and are going to get a buff.

    Even if one handers and two handers had the same wounding output two handers would still be in a very good place what with having things like legtendon and impale at lower wound levels.
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    Rivius said:

    Re: Guard. However, I feel like cavalier lost a lot of its 1v1 power with the overhaul, with no real tradeoff. I'm ok with the wounds on guard being halved, even ended up asking for that in a report. Not okay with crapping on it further than that. I miss guard being able to proc affs, and would be totally okay with it not wounding sometimes, in exchange for doing an aff here and there + poison.



    Not sure what you mean by this I wasn't around pre overhaul but as I understand it all warriors lost a lot of power with no real trade off.

    Right now Cav is one of the better warrior specs even if you ignore guard. They have a fairly standard instant kill 2x crit wounds plus they have a viable secondary instant kill as well on the limb wounds. Throw in that they are the only warrior class that can instantly impale people for instant hinder right off the bat. Even ignoring guard I want to say Cav and Al are probally the best warrior specs for solo and group combat.

    For group Al for passive damage build and anti-prism and Cav for the best hinder.
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