Factions 2017

ThaxThax Member, Gods Posts: 49 Divine
Hello everyone!

As you may have noticed there has been a lot of hustle and bustle around factions again lately and we are full steam ahead on the project. While we don't have a set release date, we are on a very aggressive timeline. If you're interested in the project, please keep in touch with the players in your org's faction planning clan and keep an eye on this section of the forums!

To kick us off, here is an overview of our current plans for factions:

Purpose
Players and administrators alike have recognized that Lusternia's population, while filled with amazing people, is not large enough to support the burgeoning number of guilds we have. While we attempted to ameliorate this problem with Guild Covenants, guilds have sometimes continued to feel empty for new and existing players. This also has led to additional problems with adding new classes as they then exacerbate the problem of population spread (Gaudi/Halli monks + the new Archetype would be 8 new guilds!). While it was a very difficult decision, we chose to reduce our number of guilds and refocus the concept around the city or commune that they are home to, rather than their class. The new orgs in development are being referred to as Factions to avoid confusion with the existing guild system.

Factions
Each city and commune will have three factions to replace their existing four/five guilds. Any citizen who has graduated from their collegium will be eligible to join a faction. Factions will have no restriction on what class can join them.

Faction Leadership
Faction Leader: Factions will have one leader that is elected by the faction members and will run the guild, similar to how most current Guild Administrator positions function. This leader will be responsible for appointing leadership positions, structuring of the faction, and other internal matters.

Faction Representative: This person will be responsible for representing the Faction on the City/Commune Ruling Council, similar to the current Guild Master function. This role will be appointed by the Faction Leader but subject to approval by the members of the faction through a coded election/referendum process before they can take their seat on the council. This position will have no additional authority within the Faction unless the Faction Leader sets it up in this manner. The Faction Leader can appoint themselves, but still require confirmation from the faction.

Faction Rank and Positions
The Faction Leader, subject to approval by someone in the Divine Pantheon, will be able to set up custom positions and assign privileges to those positions to fill any desired role within the guild. Most appointed positions will no longer exist (Secretary, Undersecretary, Archivist, etc.) and their privs will instead be assignable to the custom roles.

Factions will continue to have ranks, just as the current guild system does, though the number of ranks is TBD. A PROMOTE priv will be available to allow direction promotion up a single rank. Guildfavours may remain in a recognition capacity as well.

Novices
Novicehood will be completely transferred into the Collegium process, ending the stinted half-process of novice handling. Instead, the Ministry of Education (aka Ambassador) will fully handle the process of welcoming and training new citizens. After graduation from the Collegium, citizens will be directed to join a faction.

City Ministries
The Ambassador ministry will be renamed as the Ministry of Education and will handle the process of welcoming and training new citizens within the Collegium.

A new ministry, the Ministry of Security, will take over the role of handling enemy statuses for the city and the summoning of guards and discretionary powers, similar to current Guild Security.

Envoys
Envoys will be appointed on a per city basis from a pool of qualified and knowledgeable players, rather than one per faction. The number of Envoys per city/commune has not yet been determined.

Classflexing
Most of the restrictions on classflexing will be removed, allowing you to classflex into any class in your city/commune without requiring permission. Classflexed skills will be taught by tutors, removing the requirement to learn from a player who already has knowledge of the skill. You will not be able to classflex into the classes of another organization.

Our Commitment
We recognize that this is a large and difficult change for most, if not all, of us. Years upon years of both admin and player work and effort have gone into building guilds into the wonderful organizations that they are today. We are committed to being transparent throughout this process and to work with current player leadership to do the new faction system justice. We will be reviewing the existing things that currently belong to guilds and will make an effort to keep as much as possible in the new faction system. However, this process is inherently lossy and the end product will not be deep and engaging if we simply mash some existing guilds together in an effort to keep everything. We are committed to working with you, as I hope you are committed to working with us.

NOTE: While this proposal has been finalized, any and all things above are still subject to change at any time, for any reason.
Post edited by Ianir on
Tagged:
«134567

Comments

  • ThaxThax Member, Gods Posts: 49 Divine
    edited January 15
    Frequently Asked Questions

    Q: Factions? I thought we were calling them something else?
    A: Factions is our current working title but may not be the end result. We may still end up calling them guilds!

    Q: When are we making the switch to factions?
    A: Soon(tm). We don't have a set date, but getting this done will be one of our top priorities.

    Q: What will happen to existing guildhalls/tutors/libraries/rituals/clans/cartels/etc.?
    A: We will look at existing guild holdings on a case-by-case basis with player leadership to find the best fit for currently existing. Some things may carry over into a new faction that makes sense for them, some things may be given to the city for access to all citizens. Some things may be removed in the change over, or held onto by admin to be redone at a later time in a way that makes sense for that faction.

    Q: What about all the gold and credits that the guilds have?
    A: We will collect all guild gold and credits before the guilds are closed and parcel them out equally to the next factions (though we may take a setup fee for the new organizations, as we have done in the past).

    Q: How can I be more involved in this process?
    A: Each city and commune has a planning clan where administrators and player leaders work on faction concepts together. Administrators will evaluate clan membership on an individual basis to make sure we have appropriate representation from the organization. Administrators and player leaders will be (and have been!) posting in the faction subforums. We are looking at these forums as well as the clans for feedback!

    Q: I have a question or a concern. How do I get answers?
    A: Talk to your player leaders in the faction clan or ask us here on the forums. You can also tag me directly (@Thax) to get my attention.
  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning ** Member Posts: 1,652 Transcendent
    What's going to happen for players who have already have inter-org flexing under their belt? Also, hat's off to you and the rest of the team for kicking the conversation up. This is good.
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spotMember Posts: 4,238 Transcendent
    I love all of this.
  • ThaxThax Member, Gods Posts: 49 Divine
    Eritheyl said:
    What's going to happen for players who have already have inter-org flexing under their belt? Also, hat's off to you and the rest of the team for kicking the conversation up. This is good.
    Good question! While the plans aren't definite, we've been talking about this due to Gaudiguch and Hallifax not having monks. We don't plan to support inter-org classflexing (as it was never intended in the first place!), so players will not able able to activate skills from other orgs. As an example, if @Eritheyl tried to classflex to monk as a member of Gaudiguch, he would be able to activate kata, stealth, and his tertiary, but would not be able to activate that ninjakari spec he picked up from Magnagora.

    This is of course subject to change as we get into coding it, but for right now that is what the plan is.
  • ShaddusShaddus *Heavy Breathing Intensifies*Member Posts: 7,446 Transcendent
    Thanks for the information, @Thax . I'm hoping this works out, and I'm sure it will really make some interesting avenues of rp. 


    This in no way really makes a difference to me, but will there be a refund of lessons for those who are invested in extra-organisational skillsets, like monks from other orgs? If you're currently that class, will you mechanically lose it when Factions happen?

    Are players mechanically forced to be in a Faction if they're in a city/commune? If not, is it going to be acceptable (to the admin) if an org requires its citizens to enlist in a faction?

    Did the problem with guild credits/gold/cartels ever get hammered out?
    2017/04/23 00:29:14 - Nefara honoured Shaddus for: For his dedication to the Earthen Lords and Lady, 
    and willingness to assist our young Pupils. Despite his choosing to not progress himself further, he 
    still works for the Geomancers, and the Engine, in any way he is capable. Also comes with a healthy 
    dose of rebellion, to ensure us of the Council can not be too relaxed.
  • ThaxThax Member, Gods Posts: 49 Divine
    @Shaddus

    I don't have an answer to how extra-org skillsets will work or on refunds, but I will update with more information as we have it.

    Factions will most likely be handled like guilds where you are not mechanically required to be in a faction, but your org may require it in their laws or player leader mandates. Factions will be integral to city/commune structure, however so they may be strongly mechanically encouraged.

    As mentioned above, we'll handle guild belongings on a case-by-case basis, and will parcel out guild gold and credits to the new factions (so they won't be lost when guilds are closed).
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,611 Transcendent
    I'm pretty hyped about the envoy changes. God knows half of us don't even do any reporting and the other fourth aren't really qualified.
    image
  • LavinyaLavinya Former Queen of Snark AustraliaMember Posts: 3,353 Transcendent
    Generally speaking I really really like this outline.

    Minor concern re council rep being appointed/same person as leader, I think it's good to try and share leadership around for best equality (and hopefully lesser drama), but I get this is still being ironed out! Very happy about this direction.



  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,573 Transcendent
    Thax said:
    Eritheyl said:
    What's going to happen for players who have already have inter-org flexing under their belt? Also, hat's off to you and the rest of the team for kicking the conversation up. This is good.
    Good question! While the plans aren't definite, we've been talking about this due to Gaudiguch and Hallifax not having monks. We don't plan to support inter-org classflexing (as it was never intended in the first place!), so players will not able able to activate skills from other orgs. As an example, if @Eritheyl tried to classflex to monk as a member of Gaudiguch, he would be able to activate kata, stealth, and his tertiary, but would not be able to activate that ninjakari spec he picked up from Magnagora.

    This is of course subject to change as we get into coding it, but for right now that is what the plan is.
    To follow up on that a little bit, does this mean that everyone will have access to every class at a basic level (so someone in Glomdoring could classflex into, say, Mage, but get stuck with only Elementalism and Illusion)? Or will Gaudi/Halli get a special case with monks?
    image
  • PhoebusPhoebus tu fui, ego eris. Member Posts: 1,855 Transcendent
    Main concern I get reading this is that the Faction Leader will be overwhelmed by responsibility. It sounds like Super GA, and GA is already a pretty demanding job (though the removal of novice babysitting duty should take a load off in some respects, it still sounds like they have a lot to do.)

    I'm wondering why the Rep is appointed by the Leader and then confirmed by the faction members, as opposed to the other way around. Was there a reason for making it appointment by leader->referendum to confirm, rather than election->confirmation by leader? In the latter, if the leader shuts down the popular choice, the people can rebel against their leader accordingly. In the former, the leader can shut someone out of the position without anyone else ever having a real say.

    Biggest faction thing I'm looking forward to: I can't wait to be able to get my freaking crystalweapon without having to be broken into the Institute guildhall all the time. :|
  • WeiwaeWeiwae Member, Gods Posts: 441 Divine
    Phoebus said:

    I'm wondering why the Rep is appointed by the Leader and then confirmed by the faction members, as opposed to the other way around. Was there a reason for making it appointment by leader->referendum to confirm, rather than election->confirmation by leader? In the latter, if the leader shuts down the popular choice, the people can rebel against their leader accordingly. In the former, the leader can shut someone out of the position without anyone else ever having a real say.
    The main rationale is that the two leaders should work well together to reduce as much internal strife as possible.

    Which way do you think achieves that goal best?


  • PhoebusPhoebus tu fui, ego eris. Member Posts: 1,855 Transcendent
    Weiwae said:
    Phoebus said:

    I'm wondering why the Rep is appointed by the Leader and then confirmed by the faction members, as opposed to the other way around. Was there a reason for making it appointment by leader->referendum to confirm, rather than election->confirmation by leader? In the latter, if the leader shuts down the popular choice, the people can rebel against their leader accordingly. In the former, the leader can shut someone out of the position without anyone else ever having a real say.
    The main rationale is that the two leaders should work well together to reduce as much internal strife as possible.

    Which way do you think achieves that goal best?


    I think it's better for the overall health of the faction if the members get to elect the representative, and then have that person be confirmed by the leader. That way the leader still has a large amount of control over who they have to work with, but there's far less risk of the faction members being dissatisfied with whoever is chosen. They'll be under a lot of pressure to go with the popular vote, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

    Internal strife isn't determined solely by the leadership's happiness; personally, I believe the way it's being proposed now is at greater risk of causing dissatisfaction within a faction. I can definitely see there being complaints (real or imagined) that the leader only appointed someone due to nepotism/favoritism if they're the ones making the initial choice. 
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,180 Fabled
    Weiwae said:
    Phoebus said:

    I'm wondering why the Rep is appointed by the Leader and then confirmed by the faction members, as opposed to the other way around. Was there a reason for making it appointment by leader->referendum to confirm, rather than election->confirmation by leader? In the latter, if the leader shuts down the popular choice, the people can rebel against their leader accordingly. In the former, the leader can shut someone out of the position without anyone else ever having a real say.
    The main rationale is that the two leaders should work well together to reduce as much internal strife as possible.

    Which way do you think achieves that goal best?



    Two elected leadership positions serves to give a fair bit of balance to the guilds. I have to admit I like the way lusternia does this as opposed to other games where one single person is the be all and end all of guild status, laws and such.

    Having the 2nd leader be appointed by the first leader reduces the legitimacy of the 2nd leaders status in the guild/faction, it'd make them more of an assistant to the leader than an actual leader in their own right, and potentially opens it up to cronyism, only giving it to friends and family as opposed to someone whos going to be good at the job.

    Two directly elected positions seems pretty well and balanced, going from GA and Gl of five guilds, ten leadership spots in the city to just three is a big shift in power, really concentrating it into a much smaller group. Two elected positions keeps it at six vs the old ten which is a bit more spread at least.

    I'd be inclined to just leave the GA +Gl system a bit as it is, just converted to the three factions so all directly elected and not appointed.



    Also on a bit of an odd point two "real" leaders partly solves the issue of snubs within the guild. Its hard to get things done if a Gl and a guild member have snubbed each other but with a second proper leader present they can pick up the slack in part and manage odd situations like this.
  • PhoebusPhoebus tu fui, ego eris. Member Posts: 1,855 Transcendent
    Yeah, I would prefer they were both elected positions, but if it's strongly felt by the administration for some reason or other that the leader has to have some sort of extra say, confirming after an election would be better than the other way around.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,628 Mythical
    edited January 15
    Veyils said:
    Weiwae said:
    Phoebus said:

    I'm wondering why the Rep is appointed by the Leader and then confirmed by the faction members, as opposed to the other way around. Was there a reason for making it appointment by leader->referendum to confirm, rather than election->confirmation by leader? In the latter, if the leader shuts down the popular choice, the people can rebel against their leader accordingly. In the former, the leader can shut someone out of the position without anyone else ever having a real say.
    The main rationale is that the two leaders should work well together to reduce as much internal strife as possible.

    Which way do you think achieves that goal best?



    Two elected leadership positions serves to give a fair bit of balance to the guilds. I have to admit I like the way lusternia does this as opposed to other games where one single person is the be all and end all of guild status, laws and such.

    Having the 2nd leader be appointed by the first leader reduces the legitimacy of the 2nd leaders status in the guild/faction, it'd make them more of an assistant to the leader than an actual leader in their own right, and potentially opens it up to cronyism, only giving it to friends and family as opposed to someone whos going to be good at the job.

    Two directly elected positions seems pretty well and balanced, going from GA and Gl of five guilds, ten leadership spots in the city to just three is a big shift in power, really concentrating it into a much smaller group. Two elected positions keeps it at six vs the old ten which is a bit more spread at least.

    I'd be inclined to just leave the GA +Gl system a bit as it is, just converted to the three factions so all directly elected and not appointed.



    Also on a bit of an odd point two "real" leaders partly solves the issue of snubs within the guild. Its hard to get things done if a Gl and a guild member have snubbed each other but with a second proper leader present they can pick up the slack in part and manage odd situations like this.

    Personally, I don't see the Faction Rep as a leader of the faction. They are an appointed spokesperson, who yeah, represents the faction in the organisations council if the Leader can't do so themselves.

    The actual benefit of having the single elected leader position is that, if there is cronyism you can just contest the Leader. You don't have to deal with issues such as contesting a Triad who are only appointing their friends. 

    With the flexible position system, I also expect that you'll find extensively privileged positions being created to ease the burden that might be felt at the loss of the other two positions. Though, in our current model, it doesn't seem like much has changed, the things that the FL is responsible is just what the GC is currently responsible for.

    The only other way this would work is if there were three faction leaders, I wouldn't wish a two person leadership on anyone. (Just try to imagine getting anything done when the other leader doesn't agree)

    Once we actually have some positions laid out, the snub issue also will likely be lessened by the aforementioned high priv ranks. A FL who just keeps snubbing their faction members will likely find themselves replaced rather quickly.

    Phoebus said:
    Yeah, I would prefer they were both elected positions, but if it's strongly felt by the administration for some reason or other that the leader has to have some sort of extra say, confirming after an election would be better than the other way around.

    I think the main reason I would want the confirmation is in line with the above, it sends the message that this person isn't actually the leader.
    Without this step I can see people looking at it and declaring themselves to be the leader of their faction above the faction leader because that's the way guilds work. Which is kinda meh.




    EDIT: As an addition, there have been issues in the past with having multiple leaders. There isn't really any effective punishment for a leader short of getting someone to replace them but if no one can, the leader's only option is to get them removed from the commune which kicks them from their leadership position, but then they can't remove them from the guild until a new leader is elected.
    image
    image
  • TremulaTremula the Fate's choice for Drocilla Member Posts: 2,362 Transcendent
    I'd like an open nomination system, where at any time someone can NOMINATE <X> FOR REPRESENTATIVE <reason>. That would log it into a small list that the Leader can peruse in their own free time, and then they can confirm based on what they see. Multiple people being nominated would show their reasons on multiple lines, example:

    Nominations for CrystalThingies Faction Representative:

    Phoebus:
     o Is really neato.
     o Absolutely the bees knees.
     o Totally the cats pyjamas.
    Yarith:
     o Really friendly and cuddly!
     o Doesn't scare people away.
    Pejat:
     o In continuation with the Articles of Representation ICiii.a, I nominate Pejat to represent the CrystalThingies.
    Maligorn:
     o He won't stop pinching me until I do this!

    Once a nomination's in, it stays until someone new is appointed, so at any time the Faction Leader can open a referendum using what's in the nominations, then appoint the winner. The referendum at the beginning negates the need for confirmation, and if the leader appoints someone who didn't win, well you can contest them visibly for going against the faction's will. 
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning ** Member Posts: 1,652 Transcendent
    That's cute and all, but I'm pretty sure I would prefer a leader who actually takes the time to get out, talk to members of the faction and build their own opinions rather than plugging in a syntax and going off of a horrendously biased list of pros.
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 895 Transcendent
    I don't see the problem with the leader appointing the city representative. If the leader makes choices there that the members don't like, they can vote the leader out. In fact I'd expect a lot of factions to have the leader be the representative most of the time anyway.

    I'm taking the name representative at face value here, and the fact that they have no additional power beyond that, means they aren't a 'second leader'. They're just a rep unless the faction intentionally sets it up to do more.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,541 Transcendent
    I'd really rather the council representatives be made completely separate from the faction system.
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spotMember Posts: 4,238 Transcendent
    Yeah I'm okay with appointable reps too. Leaders can make the process as democratic as they want with referendums.
  • PhoebusPhoebus tu fui, ego eris. Member Posts: 1,855 Transcendent
    I feel it'd be most appropriate if the council representative is actually chosen by the people they're representing, and doing it with an election first, then a leader stamp of approval, avoids a lot of potential drama.
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spotMember Posts: 4,238 Transcendent
    Falmiis said:
    I'd really rather the council representatives be made completely separate from the faction system.
    I don't understand why this would be desirable.
  • TalanTalan Member Posts: 1,000 Transcendent
    My concern is that "who really runs the guild" has often been left to the guilds themselves to decide. Granted there are a few things that GA can do that the GM can't at the guild level, but whether the actual head-honcho/worker-bee is the GA or GM, or whether they do it together (or as a true triumvirate with the GC), has been variously worked out in different guilds in different ways.

    Will the council rep under the new system still have most of the top level guild privs, or will factions be able to confer powers they choose into secretary-like positions (or even unique positions)?
    #NoWireHangersEver

    Vive l'apostrophe!
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spotMember Posts: 4,238 Transcendent
    Talan said:
    My concern is that "who really runs the guild" has often been left to the guilds themselves to decide. Granted there are a few things that GA can do that the GM can't at the guild level, but whether the actual head-honcho/worker-bee is the GA or GM, or whether they do it together (or as a true triumvirate with the GC), has been variously worked out in different guilds in different ways.

    Will the council rep under the new system still have most of the top level guild privs, or will factions be able to confer powers they choose into secretary-like positions (or even unique positions)?
    Looks like it's up to the leader: This position will have no additional authority within the Faction unless the Faction Leader sets it up in this manner. 


    This level of flexibility is something I loved about Achaea's house system. I expect each faction to have some neat and varied leadership structures (at least I hope they will)!

    @Thax do we know how many positions we'll be able to create? And will each have appointable aides?
  • ThaxThax Member, Gods Posts: 49 Divine
    @Daraius We don't have an exact number or setup at this time, but we'd be looking at bigger rather than smaller.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,541 Transcendent
    Daraius said:
    Falmiis said:
    I'd really rather the council representatives be made completely separate from the faction system.
    I don't understand why this would be desirable.
    My worry is that if one faction ends up being unpopular for one reason or another and there are just a couple of them they could end up getting a council representative that may not actually be desired by 99% of the rest of the organisation. I understand there is the counter argument in that this ensures no one group gets to control every seat on the council as you would get in a system where all council representatives are elected like in the other IRE games, but I'm just wondering if there is somewhere along the middle that would be more fair for everyone.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,377 Transcendent
    Introduce more at large council members. Org head, the three appointed/confirmed factional leaders and  1-2 members elected at-large. Outside of the org head, the factions would comprise a majority of the council still. 
  • GartinuaGartinua Member Posts: 13 Novice
    Thax said:

    A: Each city and commune has a planning clan where administrators and player leaders work on faction concepts together. Administrators will evaluate clan membership on an individual basis to make sure we have appropriate representation from the organization. Administrators and player leaders will be (and have been!) posting in the faction subforums. We are looking at these forums as well as the clans for feedback!


    Probably should have said in the FAQ how you find or contact this planning clan.

    As someone who logs in when pretty much everyone else is asleep, I think this generally is a good change!
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,628 Mythical
    Gartinua said:
    Thax said:

    A: Each city and commune has a planning clan where administrators and player leaders work on faction concepts together. Administrators will evaluate clan membership on an individual basis to make sure we have appropriate representation from the organization. Administrators and player leaders will be (and have been!) posting in the faction subforums. We are looking at these forums as well as the clans for feedback!


    Probably should have said in the FAQ how you find or contact this planning clan.

    As someone who logs in when pretty much everyone else is asleep, I think this generally is a good change!
    For Serenwilde the clan is serenfaction so clanhelp serenfaction should show you who is in it. Though this only works for Seren/Mag ones as they have people appointed to positions.
    image
    image
«134567
Sign In or Register to comment.