Cross planar who lists?

ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
I'm certain this has been suggested before (I know I did in the Simple Ideas thread once last year), but I want to give this another shot!

Could we improve the 'feel' of how many players are actually in Lusternia by making most of the who lists work cross-plane? Currently it can feel as though the world is pretty empty most of the time. Even though many of the who lists seem to indicate there are other players "on other planes", I don't think this really conveys how populated and reachable most people are at any one time. Especially for guild and city populations - particularly lower ranked players trying to catch specific leaders online - I think changing this would have a significant positive effect on the game. This is despite how much I desperately love being able to hide completely in-game!

Anyway, my suggested take on this would be as follows:
  1. Alter the Planar skills Shortwave, Farwave, Aetherwave and Astrowave so that they allow channel communication while not in the prime material plane.
    • By default, messages sent from Prime (regardless of sender skill) will be received by all players on other planes.
    • By default, messages sent by off-plane players (with sufficient planar skill) will be received by all players on Prime.
    • This way, newer players shouldn't be cut off from friendly allies unless they choose to go off-plane.
  2. Alter friendly who lists (eg. GWHO, CWHO, OWHO, CGWHO) and channels so that you can see and communicate with all players on any plane, or in manses, regardless of skill.
    • You would be able to see players flying in the aetherways or on aetherbubbles in the friendly *WHO list, but not communicate with them.
  3. (Optional) Further alter the Planar skills Shortwave, Farwave, Aetherwave and Astrowave so that they also grant the ability to see player names and titles at the relevant planar distance on the main WHO and QWHO lists. 
    • Add a column to WHO, and multilines to QWHO, which indicate on which plane the person can been sensed.
    • Thirdeye location sense would continue to function with its current limitations, only showing location of targets in your current plane, or adjacent planes with the Planar Cosmicsense ability.
  4. (Optional) Add a low-level ability in Aethercraft that grants the ability to see player names and titles on WHO and QWHO for those in other manses or flying in aetherspace. Room locations of these players can never be seen on these lists.
Proposed cloaking/exception rules would be as follows:
  • Shrouded defence: Hides location from WHO list, but not friendly *WHO lists. (Does this happen now? If not, please ignore!)
  • Gem of cloaking: Removes name from main WHO/QWHO list unless you are allies, adds counter to a new bucket for 'Cloaked presences'. Does not affect friendly *WHO lists at all.
  • Standing in manse/ship room (no privacy effect): Removes location only from main WHO/QWHO list. Does not affect friendly *WHO lists at all.
  • Standing in manse/ship room (with privacy effect): Removes name from main WHO/QWHO list, adds counter to a new bucket for 'Cloaked presences'. Also removes name from any friendly *WHO list to 'flagged for privacy' list.
  • Standing in same-continent but not manse/ship room (with privacy effect):  Removes name from main WHO/QWHO list, adds counter to a new bucket for 'Cloaked presences'. Does not hide name on any friendly *WHO list - however maybe it should? I'm not really sure what privacy rooms are used for in non-manse areas.
  • Standing in off-continent room/aetherbubble: Removes name from main WHO/QWHO list, adds to a new bucket for 'beyond your senses'. Can still be seen on friendly *WHO lists, but with all channels flagged as off.
  • Not sure if there are others to take into account - let me know if I've missed something!

So some examples of what this might look like below.


WHO
You sense 2 Lusternians on this plane (Prime) and 20 cloaked presences:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Elryn - Elryn Greythane, Pure Chime                       (Atropos Way)
     Shroudee - The shrouded Shroudee
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sense 4 Lusternians on other planes and 10 cloaked presences:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Ethereal)         Vorjel - Chaote Vorjel                (amid flowering green)
(Cosmic)           Syrian - Syrian
(Cosmic)          Spindle - Mister Spindle, a Fate Guide
(Aetherways)      Someone - Someone With A Long Title
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(*) Currently there are 36 Lusternians within range and 10 beyond your senses.

QWHO
This plane: Elryn, Shroudee.
Other planes: Vorjel, Syrian, Someone.
(*) Currently, there are 5 Lusternians visible, 30 cloaked within range, and
10 beyond your senses.

GWHO
**************************[ THE SPIRITSINGERS GUILD ]**************************
Guildmember       Rank   Plane         Position                GT   GNT   CGT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elryn               1                                          On    On    On
Bob                20    (Cosmic)      Guildmaster             On    On    On
Spindle            12    (Aetherways)  Security                Off   Off   On
Pinky               9    (Undervault)                          On    On    On
Vorjel              1    (Aetherspace)                         Off*  Off*  Off*
*******************************************************************************
(*) Currently, there is 1 member on this Plane and 4 on other Planes.
(*) There are also 2 online members hidden from this list for privacy.

I'm open to other suggestions - the WHO list format in particular might be a bit unwieldy, so I'd welcome better ideas!
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Comments

  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 958 Fabled
    This already, for WHO anyways, exists in the form of an artifact - The Scrying Mirror (400cr), so you probably won't get a change there. For GWHO/CWHO, you could write something that uses gmcp as that has everyone that is currently online (including those who have a cloaking gem as it doesn't cloak on those org channels).
  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    Ah, I wasn't aware improving the WHO list was gated behind that artifact. That's a shame!

    On friendly lists though, if location/name information cross-plane is being sent via GMCP that's even better - if it's already being sent to clients, I'd argue it should be readily displayed to players without them having to implement a custom parser.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,573 Transcendent
    The only thing you'll get from GMCP is the name of the person and the channels you share with them.
    image
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    Could get an envoy report up and running for this maybe?
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,148 Transcendent
    I can get behind this being applied to GWHO and CWHO, at the very least. As well as the numbers breakdown for visible/cloaked/beyond senses for QWHO/WHO. Would be helpful to your end objective while still keeping the Scrying Mirror relevant, imo.

  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    Another possibility is showing gem of cloaking players on a plane-independent WHO/QWHO as a variant of race only, rather than name (though preferably not including the demigod flair thing, given that seems pretty unique). That would again visibly improve the emptiness of the world, and keep a bit more flavour than "20 cloaked Lusternians".

    For example:
    WHO
    You sense 2 Lusternians on this plane (Prime):
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Elryn - Elryn Greythane, Pure Chime                       (Atropos Way)
         Shroudee - The shrouded Shroudee
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You sense 4 Lusternians on other planes and 3 cloaked presences:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (Ethereal)         Vorjel - Chaote Vorjel                (amid flowering green)
    (Cosmic)           Syrian - Syrian
    (Cosmic)          Spindle - Mister Spindle, a Fate Guide
    (Aetherways)      Someone - Someone With A Long Title
    (Unknown)              ?? - A cloaked nimble faeling
    (Unknown)              ?? - A cloaked noble imperial merian
    (Unknown)              ?? - A cloaked graceful aslaran
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (*) Currently there are 9 Lusternians within range and 10 beyond your senses.

  • JaspetJaspet Member Posts: 26 Novice
    I'm still extremely excited about Lusternia! It seems like a great game and I enjoy my time here a lot, so I don't want my posts to seem more critical than I intend them to be. However, on a topic like this I feel like it's important for me to share my experiences, because I haven't been playing for years (yet). Everything that a veteran player might consider normal is still incredibly daunting for me, and I still tend to get lost a lot.

    I started the game with a few other people, some mutual friends who wanted to try a new role-playing game together and heard good things about this one. Of the three of us, I'm the only one that will still play. For one of us, it was simply the plane system and who list that was his reason for quitting.

    You've intentionally gated basic information about who's playing your game behind a $170.00 investment. I only see 6 of the 26 people online using the information available to me for free, or 23% of the players including myself. I might instead, for up to $105.00 depending on plane, find out that someone is online by sending them a tell. I could, in that instance, set up an alias to spam unsolicited tells toward everyone that I'm curious about and use that information to know who I can interact with. Both of these options are absurd.
  • KarsavKarsav Member Posts: 13 Novice
    Jaspet said:
    Of the three of us, I'm the only one that will still play. For one of us, it was simply the plane system and who list that was his reason for quitting.
    Hi, this is me.

    The plane system here is the most frustratingly pigheadedly stupid design decision I can think of in basically my entire MUD career.

    You take your newest players, the one you want to get invested in your game, and you completely isolate them from the vast majority of the people in their organizations. You don't let them see the people who are offplane. You don't let them communicate with the people offplane. You might have a dozen people on in your org but that doesn't matter in the slightest because you CAN'T SEE THEM.

    How can I tell if my friends are online when I'm leveling? My who list doesn't help, all I see is this:
    =========================================================
    (p) 4012h, 7390m, 4860e, 10p, 20160en, 20160w Bek-qw
    Karsav.
    (*) Currently, there is 1 Lusternian on this Plane and 32 on other Planes.
    =========================================================

    I could try sending them blind tells, but the ability to do that is gated behind a ~$100 investment into a tertiary skillset.

    It is like you are TRYING to isolate me from everybody I could talk to and make my playing experience suck. If that's the case, I have good news for you.

    IT IS WORKING.

  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,396 Transcendent
    You know, I agree with any next person that seeing people who are off-plane on things like cwho and gwho is a great idea.

    But I most certainly don't think the planar system here sucks. The sense of being isolated when you're exploring a non-prime plane is something I like. It actually makes you feel like you're floating out there in space. You want to radio back home? Yeah, you need some special equipment. And you do feel some measure of jealousy for those who can do that effortlessly. A person jumping you while you're offplane and without the means to communicate? That's an adrenaline rush you can't get from elsewhere. Your friends are happily whittling away in a safe spot at home, and you're fighting for your life in a realm that is really out of reach. It doubly creates that sense of home in your prime org territory that makes it feel safe and welcoming.

    As it is, if you're a newbie and you need help, CGT and the newbie channel ignores planar restrictions. The only thing left to do is to make sure newbies who need help can see the people who can help them - via cwho and gwho.

    On general who lists? If you just want to do OOC chatter while taking the bluntness off grinding? Yeah, no. I don't really think we need to make the planar system cater to that.

  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    I think it's definitely a fine balancing act between making the world feel too empty, or too small, but I would say that blocking communication rather than travel is the wrong emphasis. There are so many travel artifacts that render planar (or even the more significant aetherspace) distances essentially irrelevant, that surely we can't be too precious about making planes matter through the WHO list of all things.

    Especially not when I think it does have a very tangible effect on how much you are inclined to interact with fellow players - within your org or not. There are so many times that talking on city/clan channels is like speaking into the wind - you never know who is actually listening, or which people are going to hear you. And I do think that hiding players of other nations in particular detracts from the vibrancy of a fleshed out world, because it seems like there's only ever a handful of people online other than those who made similar choices to yourself.

    Having said all that, I'd suggest preserving some of the planar communication troubles, but limiting it to *when you actually go off-plane*, as posited above. That way the main world itself should always feel populated and alive, but using the planar system does involve some element of isolation (well, at least until you can afford otherwise).
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    It might be helpful to let new characters now (somewhere right after the intro?) that, if needed, people can still hear you on stuff like CGT regardless of planes requisite skills.

    We already do have at least a few stuff to mitigate it, but it's not helpful if people don't learn it exists.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    Well, that's helpful yes, but already on every WHO list it mentions that there are hidden players. (X on other planes).

    I don't think the issue is about a lack of understanding, it's about the perception given by removing 80% of the playerbase from visible lists. That, and not being able to tell *who* you are interacting with - asking a question on newbie is fine, but at some point you want to get to know and engage with other characters, not just throw out questions into the aether.

    I also don't mean to imply the current situation is abysmal, though I'm very sorry to hear we lost you, Karsav! I just think it's an easy win - for very little effort (I hope!) and inconvenience to established players, we dramatically improve the visible population of the game and its organisations. Seems beneficial to me!
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    edited January 31
    If people are entering the game feeling that they can't even reach out sans Planar, then I would disagree, there certainly is a problem understanding. Many long-term friendships start from that initial CGT Hey guys, anyone here? From there it's easier (on our player end) to maintain those relationships and keep an eye ourselves on our visibility. When it's desired.

    Ways to communicate do exist, even when some of us are out in aspace without omniscience (gated beyond even a paywall, that).

    I'm also not at all saying your idea is a bad one; only adding another little idea that might help, for things that already exist.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • JaspetJaspet Member Posts: 26 Novice
    Lerad said:
    But I most certainly don't think the planar system here sucks. The sense of being isolated when you're exploring a non-prime plane is something I like. It actually makes you feel like you're floating out there in space. You want to radio back home? Yeah, you need some special equipment. And you do feel some measure of jealousy for those who can do that effortlessly. A person jumping you while you're offplane and without the means to communicate? That's an adrenaline rush you can't get from elsewhere. Your friends are happily whittling away in a safe spot at home, and you're fighting for your life in a realm that is really out of reach. It doubly creates that sense of home in your prime org territory that makes it feel safe and welcoming.
    I would never be critical about how someone plays a game, and if someone is looking for Lusternia to be "David Bowie Space-Oddity Simulator 2017", I could definitely see the draw of the planes in their current format. I just personally feel like that experience leaves a lot to be desired for someone still trying to meet people and make friends.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Imo, that's what aetherspace is for. 
  • KarsavKarsav Member Posts: 13 Novice
    Additionally, this kind of stuff is why Lusternia has the reputation among the other IRE games of being an especially grabby credit trap.

    Sure, the combat artifacts are cheaper, but they charge you $170 to use qwho and another $100 to send tells to people. Oh, and you need to learn that tertiary skill to get to Lusternian Azdun. What's the skill do? Well, nothing, really. It's just a way of charging you credits to experience basic gameplay.

    What if you don't want to pay it? Well, you can sit on prime and not talk to anybody, but that's okay because you won't know that anybody is around to talk to. 
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,396 Transcendent
    I can agree to disagree about what makes a good experience - feeling isolated when on higher planes is something I think is a good thing, and I get that people might not like that kind of flavour and RP. Fine. Personally, one of the things I was drawn to while reading the histories, was the fact that the higher planes have always been areas depicted as being very much levels of existence than most mortals should dream about - certainly the case for most denizens. Only the most powerful get to go do planar travel. When mortals first broke through and got into Astral, it was very much a big deal. It was the equivalent of landing on the moon when it was first done. In both the abilities as well as the lore, the relevant guilds are all extremely protective, and territorial, about their home planes - they're the only ones who can travel freely there... on theory, anyway.

    For the sake of game balance, planar travel to even Elemental and Cosmic is unlocked easily and readily, without much of the "cash grabbing" that is being accused of here. Which brings me to my next point. I've largely refrained from participating in the fuss about the cash-grabbiness of Lusternia. When I first started playing, it certainly felt like a lot of extra skills to learn compared to the IRE I came from. But it's been said by a few individuals, that Lusternia has a host of freebie ways to get access to credits or cash items, that the other games may not have in as much abundance. Naturally, the other games also have other avenues of earning credits Lusternia does not have. A direct comparison is hardly fair to either Lusternia or the other IRE game being compared, and usually highly inaccurate.

    And almost entirely irrelevant to this thread.

    But just to entertain the thought a little. Specifically about Lusternia planar mechanics as being "just a way of charging you credits to experience basic gameplay." Getting into any bashing area on Prime, regardless of continent, requires EtherGate in Planar. Anywhere on Prime can be reached as long as there is a planar gate from a location in Ethereal that leads to that area on Prime, and you only need EtherGate to access to-and-fro. Where is EtherGate in Planar? Two skills before LiquidRift. Which is THIRTY-FIVE lessons (which also gets you access to Elemental, too).

    Of which, twenty-five lessons will be refunded if you do the "Some Personal Space" newbie achievement.

    In other words, 10 lesson investment to unlock access to every single location on Prime and Ethereal - subject to other players helping to set up the planar gates, of course. I do not know of any bashing areas in Elemental or Cosmic. Maybe the Shattered Earth plane thingy? Never visited there, never bashed there on my way to Demigod, nope. Astral is an end-game, or at least, Level 80+ area for groups bashing. Most of the lucrative bashing areas, from 80 to 100 and beyond, are on Prime (and to a lesser extent, Ethereal, specifically the catacombs). A few lucrative exceptions exist, like Muud and Astral, but between the Undervault, Lirang'sha, the Iceplains, there is no lack of anything to bash from 80 and up. Everything a lower-than-level-80 character can bash is on Prime, usually in the main continent.

    Charging you credits to experience basic gameplay? Really? As a newbie? Or even as an IRE migrant?

    Yeah, just to reiterate - I fully support expanding cwho/gwho for making newbies feel more aware of their city members and that there are people around to ask for help, or even to approach for RP/introductions. I also can understand concerns that the idea of higher planes being difficult to access and being isolated when you access it, can be off-putting to some people. I will advocate that we keep the status quo for the higher planes at least - changing Prime WHO is an argument that has some valid points - but I'm not saying it would be a problem to change higher planes being isolated - just that I would feel it would lessen some of Lusternia's draws.

    But to pull this thread, and planar mechanics, into part of the accusation of the cash-grabby thing? I'm not even going to talk about that comment of $170 for qw, or $100 for sending tells. Seriously. At best, this is a skewed perspective from genuinely mistaken information. At worst, this is blind entitlement and patent falsehood.

  • AnaklusmosAnaklusmos Member Posts: 78 Capable
    edited February 1
    I can pretty much get all of what's being asked here for 0 lessons, 0 credits, and 0 gold (hi, herbs) in Imperian and Achaea. Personally, after 5-something years playing Lusternia myself, moving to another IRE surprised me with how much more accessible everything is over on the other side of the proverbial river.

    Also, I'd just like to point something out -- everyone defending the status quo has been playing Lusternia for months, maybe even years. Sure, from that perspective, one can argue that everything's fine and dandy. But to a relative Lusternian newbie dipping a toe or two into this particular IRE? It may not be as rosy as you adamantly think it is.

    My point, I suppose, is whether Lusternia would like to cater mainly to its veteran players who have gotten used to the way things are, or open its doors to embrace a larger, more diverse, base. Both have merits and both have drawbacks.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 763 Mythical
    I'm personally on the side of 'people just want everything for free', but I can see the reasoning of folks coming from other games and being put off by the appearance of having to pay money for basic features.  The cash-grabbiness of lusternia is mostly targeted at people trying to stay top-tier (which is annoying, but better than targeting novices).

    With all the overtures that the admin make towards wanting to retain novices, the fact that new players still get that cash-grab feeling is a problem.  I don't think the actual situation is problematic, it's just that novices don't recognize the difference between Lusternia and other IREs, and they think that Lusternia is trying to dig into their pocketbook from the outset.

    Lusternia gives away tons of free credits for all sorts of achievements, leveling up, competitions, promotions, etc.  They've moved important skills low down in the common skillsets so they are easy to obtain.  They've made it so novices can communicate across all planes. Etc.  Can more be done? Of course, but the admin have gone specifically out of their way to make it so that new players can play the fully featured game without having to invest anything more than a bit of time.  

    What they've failed to do however, is change this cash-grab perception.  Maybe a little help file/guide is in order that outlines a plan of attack for novices to work towards being a full standing shard.

    It would look more or less like:
    Recommended ways for novice to generate lessons/credits:
    <list>
    Recommended skills to obtain with credits:
    <list>

    Then people could quibble over how long it takes to do said tasks before they have all of the basic skills they would like.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,396 Transcendent
    Herbs? Why are herbs even in the picture?

    This thread is about planar mechanics, and for all the problems with Lusternia's economy and the cash-grab nature of its artifacts and QoL stuff, planar mechanics are quite possibly one of the least important, non-issues in terms of cashgrabbing for gameplay. Planar mechanics here are certainly not perfect - but I'm arguing for the status quo on the basis of a roleplay, ambient argument, not because "everything's fine and dandy".

    There certainly is a valid argument that not being able to hear people while you're off-plane makes you feel isolated and makes your experience a lot quieter (while you're off-plane). I'm not arguing against that. This isn't an argument to "cater mainly to... veteran players". I have access to every form of communication except omniscience - making this change affects me absolutely zilch. 

    I am, however, disputing the mistaken assertion that planar mechanics, of all the things in Lusternia, are a cash-grab. You can, as a true newbie, get access to literally all of Prime and Ethereal and Elemental with 10 lessons. Sure, that's 10 more than the 0 lessons of other IREs. Wow, mucho cash grab there. (As a digression, I'm pretty sure you can get around sewers requirement with planar rifts too. And that's something the other IREs certainly don't have. Shall we raise the pitchforks against Achaea/Aetolia/Imperian for that, huh?) I am putting forth the assertion that the inconvenience (for the higher planes) is part of the charm - though I've also acknowledged that my version of charming might not be the same as the other person. 

    I don't see why this is being characterised as a "oldie-versus-newbie" thing. This has nothing to do with protecting privilege, or being unsympathetic to newbies. I'm not sure which part of my arguments even imply that. Or even a comparison-between-IREs thing. Literally no other IRE has 5 planes of existence that players can zip back and forth on. That very mechanic is what sets Lusternia apart. It's not like Lusternia's Prime plane is significantly smaller than the other IREs' Prime planes either - though I haven't counted. Someone probably could set the record straight on that. I also won't go as far as to say that something like putting out names on cwho/gwho will dilute our uniqueness, no, but I do feel like keeping some aspects of that differentiation and inconvenience contributes to keeping our unique mechanic an interesting experience beyond "oh, it's just another area that you enter a special command to access instead of walking to".

    And I feel like that is also an important consideration when looking at making changes to the way planar mechanics work.

  • KarsavKarsav Member Posts: 13 Novice
    Lerad said:
    I don't see why this is being characterised as a "oldie-versus-newbie" thing. 
    Lots of reasons:
    1. Established players are much less likely to have a major issue with things like this, because if they had a major issue with it they wouldn't have stuck with it. New players are the ones who are going to be adversely affected by it. 
    2. Established players are much more likely to have the skills/artifacts to counteract the negative sides of the status quo.
    3. New players are very often in a big credit crunch, having three guild skills and Lowmagic/Highmagic and Discipline and Discernment and Combat and Environment and such to deal with, which makes Planar an incredibly irritating extra expense that you have to pay if you want to do things like "talk to people" or "access the world".
    4. New players are probably just starting the grind and so are going to be spending long amounts of time doing things like "lnfluencing illithid prison" where they're literally the only person showing up on qwho.
    5. New players who don't know anybody are exactly the kinds of players you want to have free access to organizational channels wherever they are, and not just cgt/newbie crap that nobody talks on except to ask questions. You want to make their world feel alive, not isolated and lonely.
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    Established players have these issues because we want to talk to newbies and such and we can't do it without resorting to coding around the planar restrictions IE abusing ctells and cltells full to by pass planar speaking restrictions. Or we can't do it at all if we want to quest on the aether bubbles.

    One of the big things that discourage me going to aether bubbles is that I can't come and help people who need it or answer new people's questions on CT.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,396 Transcendent
    1+2) I've said, again and again, that I'm not unsympathetic to the plight being described. Most of the "established players" posting here are also supportive of the suggestions - and we most certainly won't be losing any mechanical advantage, or skills, or artifacts, to this change. What I've said, instead, in a previous post is, verbatim: "I'm arguing for the status quo on the basis of a roleplay, ambient argument, not because "everything's fine and dandy"." So why are we quoting the skills and abilities of established players as a reason for characterising this as an "oldie-versus-newbie" thing again? When I said "I don't see why this is being characterised..." I sort of expected it to be read along with the rest of my post - or are we just picking out a single sentence to reply to?

    3) This also comes up again and again, and really, 10 lessons is an "incredibly irritating extra expense"? Really?

    4) The Undervault is a different continent. This is a mechanic that exists in other IREs, and I'm pretty sure Aetolia also does not allow communication or qw across continents, at the very least. Not sure about the other IREs. But anyway, if the only reason why we're discussing changing planar communication mechanics is so that people can chat while grinding... If you want to grind with a social aspect, invite people, group up, grind together. Sure, the newbie can't see when someone logs in - so yeah, make the off-plane people show up on cwho/gwho as well, and newbies can then invite them to join if it happens that they noticed a friend appear while bashing.

    5) New players who don't know anybody, and would like to get to know more would, you know, stay in the Prime org areas, getting to know more people. They could probably bash AND chat with people anyway, because most of the newbie bashing areas are not even off-continent, and when they DO go to an off-continent area, hey, there's a real difference here. The quality of silence is different, because people actually can't hear! I think that experience, where going somewhere different actually means something, is valuable.

    Look, I'll repeat one last time. I'm not opposed to making things a better experience for new players. By all means, show new players who are off-plane on their cwho/gwho, so they can get the help the need, when they need it. But if all we're doing here is trying to make things eas(ier) for people who want to chat while grinding, then I'm questioning the need to give up an aspect which I feel makes the planar system more interesting in return.

  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,727 Transcendent
    On a side note regarding who and continents, you'll be thankful for the current system before you get a cloaking gem when you try to bash the Hives or the Prison.

    That anyone can't spot you from the comfort of their nexus is a positive.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • DylaraDylara Member Posts: 1,287 Transcendent
    I just want to point out things used to be worse, and people have been actively fighting since the beginning to have things more accessible to new players. The established player base isn't against change.

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    Hmm, this topic seems to have become a little more heated than I intended. A few points:
    • I don't think it's fair to say that Lusternia is a 'cash grab', certainly not over something as little as this. Yes, the sense of isolation is mitigated by a combination of skills and purchasable artifacts, but that's not inherently a problem - paying for a little bit of convenience is usually a great idea!
    • This isn't an oldie vs newbie argument. Personally, I am in a pretty fortunate position after the years here (despite many long periods of inactivity) where I can choose both to control my visibility to others and overcome most of these restrictions if I choose for my own character anyway. I probably don't count as a veteran anymore (and to be honest, probably never did!), but I'm hardly a newbie either :P
    • The planar system is freaking brilliant (as is aetherspace). It is a unique selling point for the game, provides oodles of roleplay value and interesting mechanics in theory, and I definitely don't want to 'flatten' it out (actually, I hope we find more planar areas!). You'll see in the original suggestion I wanted to preserve the limits when someone goes off-plane (with the potential to reduce this via planar skill, as currently), but change the way it works for those who remain on prime. I hope this lends to the feeling of adventure when you venture off-plane, but doesn't mean you disappear for everyone else with a more stable vantage point.
    If this isn't the right way to improve that sense of a vibrant, full and diversely populated game - then I'm more than open to alternative suggestions. I think that the current player lists actually do Lusternia a disservice, because it looks far less thriving than it really is (maybe only in the oceanic hours when I play, to be fair).

    We're looking at consolidating guilds to assist with that sense of emptiness in organisations, this is just a suggestion along the same vein, but on a broader world scale.
  • OrventaOrventa Member Posts: 576 Mythical
    It's been a while since I was a novice, but aren't there credit/lesson reward milestones awarded at certain levels? I've never had to spend storebought credits for lessons to get to the planar sight/hearing skills. I just remember converting a few of those awarded credits to lessons, which also came with a lesson bonus I think for the first x amount converted? Not everyone would be keen on converting their earned credits to lessons, but it's an option.



    I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots.
    Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    FYI, I'm trans discernment and planar, and usually WHO will show no more than about 6-7 characters on prime, despite saying there are about 30 players online.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    It makes overwhelmingly massive sense to improve CWHO and GWHO (or the faction equivalent) to show anyone who would otherwise show up on those lists if they are currently on or docked on any of the known planes. I haven't caught any salient argument to the contrary.

    You then at least know that they are there and can be reached via message if nothing else. 
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