Cross planar who lists?

2

Comments

  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    edited February 1
    Karsav said:
    1. New players who don't know anybody are exactly the kinds of players you want to have free access to organizational channels wherever they are, and not just cgt/newbie crap that nobody talks on except to ask questions. You want to make their world feel alive, not isolated and lonely.

    If you're dismissing some of the features already in place as "crap," it's shifting your tone pretty heavily into the "I just want free stuff" perception. If you don't even want to use what is already in place, what difference would making any changes really do other than cater to a whim? Whatever ideas we come up with, if the admin actually try to implement anything meaningful, but not precisely what we suggested (feels like every change, ever sometimes) what's to stop that from being "crap" too because it's not 100% what you wanted?

    That people don't use it terribly often right now is irrelevant. What most people use it for is likewise irrelevant. The fact is everybody does have access to an aether that everybody can hear. Specifically to address the fact that without it, you're actually cut off. It's a solution the admin have already implemented to mitigate this very issue.

    Literally the first thing a lot of guilds ask you to do here, as in other IREs, is announce yourself on the newb channels. something along the lines of "CGT Hi, I'm new" if you can't think of anything else. Any players who are even inclined to interact with a new character (again, as in many IREs there's a bunch of people who just don't whether they're visible or not) can and usually will respond from there, the planes be damned, without breaking the intentional not-obvious presence some folks put a lot of effort and yes, money into doing.

    The most prominent reason I can think of why any such changes to the who list would not even address this issue is that most people often show up off-plane, yes. The vast majority of time that means they are in their personal manse, not off-plane, and I don't see the admin being too keen on breaking privacy there.

    tl;dr It's a specious thought, but a change like this wouldn't actually change anything.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    edited February 1
    Riluna said:
    The most prominent reason I can think of why any such changes to the who list would not even address this issue is that most people often show up off-plane, yes. The vast majority of time that means they are in their personal manse, not off-plane, and I don't see the admin being too keen on breaking privacy there.

    tl;dr It's a specious thought, but a change like this wouldn't actually change anything.
    The original suggestion includes manse occupants. It just changes that property to be optional rather than always-on (via the existing privacy room flag).

    Edit: I actually thought the bigger factor for WHO lists would be gems of cloaking, to be honest. Hence the enhanced suggestion to show race only, sans location, for cloaked players (of which I am usually one).
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    Cloaked players are already uncloaked to the relevant allies who would be affected by this. If it's allowing non-org people to see, even if it's just saying "somebody" is cloaked here, that undermines the purpose of the gem. For example, "I see a 'somebody' up on Fire/Vortex. They're a 'somebody' so clearly not Gaudi. Let's go find out who it is!" Why would an 'enemied' novice even need to see I'm around for any reason that can't already be addressed by the newbie channel?

    The manse thing I really don't see changing. Admin themselves will already ask permission for "intruding" there. Even if it did change, all it does is show you exactly who is being AFK. They're still AFK, and not going to be around to be friendly or helpful or whatever.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable

    Riluna said:
    Cloaked players are already uncloaked to the relevant allies who would be affected by this. If it's allowing non-org people to see, even if it's just saying "somebody" is cloaked here, that undermines the purpose of the gem. For example, "I see a 'somebody' up on Fire/Vortex. They're a 'somebody' so clearly not Gaudi. Let's go find out who it is!" Why would an 'enemied' novice even need to see I'm around for any reason that can't already be addressed by the newbie channel?
    I know it's a number of posts back, but there are examples that answer these questions already! (Also, it's important to underline these changes are not just for novices. They're for everyone!)
    Elryn said:
    Another possibility is showing gem of cloaking players on a plane-independent WHO/QWHO as a variant of race only, rather than name (though preferably not including the demigod flair thing, given that seems pretty unique). That would again visibly improve the emptiness of the world, and keep a bit more flavour than "20 cloaked Lusternians".

    For example:
    WHO
    You sense 2 Lusternians on this plane (Prime):
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Elryn - Elryn Greythane, Pure Chime                       (Atropos Way)
         Shroudee - The shrouded Shroudee
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You sense 4 Lusternians on other planes and 3 cloaked presences:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (Ethereal)         Vorjel - Chaote Vorjel                (amid flowering green)
    (Cosmic)           Syrian - Syrian
    (Cosmic)          Spindle - Mister Spindle, a Fate Guide
    (Aetherways)      Someone - Someone With A Long Title
    (Unknown)              ?? - A cloaked nimble faeling
    (Unknown)              ?? - A cloaked noble imperial merian
    (Unknown)              ?? - A cloaked graceful aslaran
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (*) Currently there are 9 Lusternians within range and 10 beyond your senses.

    As for your other concern:
    Riluna said:
    The manse thing I really don't see changing. Admin themselves will already ask permission for "intruding" there. Even if it did change, all it does is show you exactly who is being AFK. They're still AFK, and not going to be around to be friendly or helpful or whatever.
    Exactly! This suggestion is not about people being forced to be friendly or helpful, or turning everyone into a newbie guide. It's not making manses any less sacrosanct. It's intended to improve the visibility of just how many characters are in Lusternia, and my personal favourite, to better show you who you might be able to interact with on your friendly channels. If people want to be AFK or switch off channels - go for it! I don't have a problem with that at all :)
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    I guess I just don't understand why, if people are already not interacting with you on already available channels, why being aware of who exactly they are would add any additional interaction.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    There isn't always a big culture of totally public (CT) interaction. Knowing who people are allows you to seek them out with tells and messages. 
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    To somebody not responding on CT, GT, or whatever? What does that accomplish? People open to unsolicited tells tend to be the same ones who will respond elsewhere, too.

    If people aren't using what they already have, because our culture is one of just non-interaction that way, why would they use this?

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    It lets you know that there are other people around from your organization, and lets you reach out to them.

    If someone says a general "Hello!" on CT I do not engage with them unless no one else responds. If someone sends me a tell saying "Hello!" directly to me I respond to them and more importantly, proceed to the conversation that usually follows. It's not about non-interaction in general, it's that public theaters of interaction are different than private theaters and people behave differently in them. Allowing you to both say a public Hello and more aimed hellos (or what have you) at people you notice are around but on other planes provides more tools for discovering and initiation action. 


  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,666 Mythical
    Riluna said:
    To somebody not responding on CT, GT, or whatever? What does that accomplish? People open to unsolicited tells tend to be the same ones who will respond elsewhere, too.

    If people aren't using what they already have, because our culture is one of just non-interaction that way, why would they use this?
    So, because things aren't happening now, we shouldn't try to change them and hope for something better?

    Making more people visible would help combat negative impressions, such as that an org/the game is empty. Sure you have a number saying there's x people elsewhere, but if you fairly consistently don't actually see any names of people then it does feel like you're alone.

    Making people on known planes visible on who could help, worst case it doesn't change things. Allowing exceptions for those in rooms with privacy on would also help , though afk rules might need to be changed so that you need to be in a privacy room, not just in a manse.


    That said, I think we need to look more into how we bash, the best methods right now require a group, stepping away from that group to help a novice might mean difficulty replacing the xp you could have gained.
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,639 Transcendent
    I realise that this isn't a cure-all solution for the problem, but if I want to know someone's online, I use AIDES POWER, because most relevant city/communemembers will be aided to the power ministry. It doesn't respect cloaking gems or off-planar or aetherbubbles or aetherships. It's my upgraded EWHO : ^)

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  • AnaklusmosAnaklusmos Member Posts: 78 Capable
    Personally, I respond 40% of the time on public channels, but 90% of the time on direct private ones. It's the same behaviour with that social experiment wherein a staged emergency happens in a crowded place -- you're more likely to get a response if you make eye contact and talk to specific people, rather than if you shout "Help!" to everyone present.

    Knowing who exactly is present, even masking what plane and specific location they're on, is a big step better than the current 'and 30 other players on other planes' or whatever that it is now. Respect veil/gem/whatever, sure. Lusternia has the second or third highest population in IRE. Highight that. MUDs are already small, no need to appear being even tinier.  
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    Saran said:
    Riluna said:
    To somebody not responding on CT, GT, or whatever? What does that accomplish? People open to unsolicited tells tend to be the same ones who will respond elsewhere, too.

    If people aren't using what they already have, because our culture is one of just non-interaction that way, why would they use this?
    So, because things aren't happening now, we shouldn't try to change them and hope for something better?

    Making more people visible would help combat negative impressions, such as that an org/the game is empty. Sure you have a number saying there's x people elsewhere, but if you fairly consistently don't actually see any names of people then it does feel like you're alone.

    Making people on known planes visible on who could help, worst case it doesn't change things. Allowing exceptions for those in rooms with privacy on would also help , though afk rules might need to be changed so that you need to be in a privacy room, not just in a manse.


    That said, I think we need to look more into how we bash, the best methods right now require a group, stepping away from that group to help a novice might mean difficulty replacing the xp you could have gained.

    I think because things aren't happening now, we need a bit more than just hoping a change solves it. So far, there's not really a compelling example of why people would actually behave any differently with a few more names rather than numbers. I mean, even when an entire, populated guild is on Prime it has not at all been my experience that people will randomly start sending each other tells. "GNT/GT/etc Hey is anybody around for X" might be answered faster, but that's not at all just because names are now on the Prime list. It's because they're actually around. IMHO the root problem is actually elsewhere.

    I'm not actually against a change like this. I'm not really for it either, though. I am, however, curious if the arguments for this can be developed more strongly (if it is indeed a meaningful change).

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited February 2
    So what's the counter argument to the change? Hoping that not changing something will solve it? If there is no compelling example that people will behave differently, so what?

    People are asking for it. It might help. It cannot hurt. That's a pretty compelling argument.
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    That meaningless changes are not helpful to an already taxed and changing system?

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited February 2
    Why aren't they helpful?  Can you develop that argument more strongly? 

    Like, there have been several people coming forwards to confirm and support the argument for at least a starting level of simple changes. People are asking for it. Anecdotal evidence from bona fide new players is that a simple change would have made a difference in their engagement in the game. That change would have helped retain at least some people, even just the 1-2 who posted here. So it might help on a broader scale. The claim that it would harm the game to show members of your own org when they are on known planes (The basic 5) hasn't been supported. It can't hurt. 

    If someone wants to make the claim that it's meaningless or taxing or harmful, they should make that case. What I'm seeing from you is that it's confusing to older players soley on the basis of being something a change, not anything to do with the actual merits of this change.
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    edited February 2
    I did. Because there are already things implemented which can mitigate this already, that we do not even use.

    To rephrase, perhaps, why is asking for new toys, which even proponents for seem to agree might not even do anything, a more effective solution as yet another thing we're not gonna use?

    We can already do a lot to mitigate this problem ourselves. Even if this change goes through, it relies on the exact same cultural changes that would solve this issue as if no change occurred at all.

    So unless there is a direct link between this change, and that cultural change, why waste the time? Why not work on that culture of availability, instead?

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited February 2
    Which other things that are already implemented that can mitigate the problem of an empty looking game for a new player? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the understanding of a newer player is "I put in the CWHO command to see who in my city/commune is online.". Upgrading that command to more accurately perform that function is only useful.

    Further, at least 2 people have come forwards and said they do respond and are available, but are more likely to do so when contacted directly by someone in their org. This change would increase the viability of reaching out to a specific person in your org for a new player. 

    We can't just say "It's a complicated social issue and so we shouldn't bother to implement any kind of changes to encourage or enable good behavior if we can't totally solve the entire issue in one fell swoop" and throw our hands up. 

  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    Aethers that literally everyone can hear and respond to. It's not that some name appears on a list that makes those aethers feel empty. It's that, as has been admitted, people don't use them that makes them feel empty.

    If you did use it, presto, less empty channels! Regardless of what who list you appear on.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Social culture is broadly shaped, directly and indirectly, by the means and availibity of interaction. The very way to effect social change isn't to just rant about it or point out the problem, but to change the incentives that promote that sort of social dynamic. Changing these things isn't zero sum, making it easier to see who in your org and faction are online but merely on another plane or in a manse doesn't mean that we just can't ever tackle other problems with Lusternian player culture. You actually can do both. 
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited February 2
    Riluna said:
    Aethers that literally everyone can hear and respond to. It's not that some name appears on a list that makes those aethers feel empty. It's that, as has been admitted, people don't use them that makes them feel empty.

    If you did use it, presto, less empty channels! Regardless of what who list you appear on.
    But people have explicitly pointed out that the kind of interaction that happens on an aether is different than more "in person" interaction. The fact that people use them that way is for a reason, just saying "cut it out" and waving a magic wand doesn't fix that. No one has decreed that the channels be used the way they are, why would decreeing that they should be used differently work? It just doesn't make sense. Sure it might be dumb, but it manifestly does not help to point that out. Nor does it make sense to block other improvements as a result. 

  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,639 Transcendent
    I personally really like Lavinya's suggestion. The generic "command failure" that we have now when we try to reach someone is confusing and off-putting. Crafting a new tell for "this person is too far away" would offer at least some hope. The "to whom" can stay for those that are actually offline, I guess.

    If we're worried about gaming the system to see if enemies are around/on a bubble by sending tells, well. I think that's irrelevant. You're going to find out who is on the enemy team has one way or another.

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  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    edited February 2
    Right, and I'm arguing that the incentives of the tools we work with are actually our own fault.

    The incentive (and the problem) appears to be defined as finding somebody to interact with. The fundamental flaw with the idea that a changing who list solves anything, at least to my understanding, is the perception that people are around to interact with, but we just can't see them. I rather think, the vast majority of the time anyway, that people are in fact not around to interact with, in which case whether you can see them or not changes nothing.

    How does expanding the list of names change the incentive to be available, if otherwise we continue on with the status quo on the personal level?

    edit to your edit (i missed it) - We can't just say "It's a complicated social issue and so we shouldn't bother to implement any kind of changes to encourage or enable good behavior if we can't totally solve the entire issue in one fell swoop" and throw our hands up. 

    I think we can't just say it's a complicated social issue and so we shouldn't bother tackling it socially, insisting instead it's a mechanical solution that will solve our woes.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Take Psychodrama for instance, it's easier to see the point.  It's not widely played. That fact is due to several factors. First, the economic reward for playing is not substantially higher than using other methods to gain ikons. Second, participation is gated behind skills that otherwise don't strongly impact a player looking to maximize cost:effect ratios of their lessons. So, it takes a large investment to get going well. Third, it's complicated to play and prone (imo) to gimmick strategies. Fourth, it's an entire niche game inside a different niche game. 

    Unless you change one of those factors, the general rate of play isn't going to go up. You can talk about how great it is, and shoot down other experience buffs because there's this great "free" method of gaining ikons by playing in the tournament. If your goal is to have more people play the tournament, none of those things are going to create a meaningful statistical trend in playership if the cost (in effort and resources) to payout ratio remains the same. One month, make a promotion that gives everyone who participates in an ikon tournament (no matter how they place) and we'll have a big spike of people introduce to the game and using it. Eventually however, once the original factors are in place again and balance back out, the playership will trend towards the equilbrium it was at before, with just the people for whom it hits the right cost:payout (either in resources or fun.

    It's a little harder to pin down the factors that influence how social communication methods are used, but the same idea applies. There are ways in which the channels work which (in the long run and in a general sense) apply gentle pressure on the culture of using them. If you don't change those factors, a campaign to increase participation will create a temporary bump, but it will always trend back towards equilbrium. If a tool is not being used, examine the tool
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited February 2
    Riluna said:


    How does expanding the list of names change the incentive to be available, if otherwise we continue on with the status quo on the personal level?
    It increases the power of the novice to seek out someone from their guild/faction/city in person through tells. That act, sending a tell instead of a ctell is what increases the incentive to respond. 
  • JaspetJaspet Member Posts: 26 Novice
    Enyalida said:
    Riluna said:


    How does expanding the list of names change the incentive to be available, if otherwise we continue on with the status quo on the personal level?
    It increases the power of the novice to seek out someone from their guild/faction/city in person through tells. That act, sending a tell instead of a ctell is what increases the incentive to respond. 
    It also just gives a more vivid impression that 'other people are doing this too', which is a hugely important psychological factor for motivation when someone first starts engaging in a new activity.
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    Wouldn't the exact same proposed effect occur if more of us would elect to actually be on Prime instead of just creating the illusion of it?

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited February 2
    So, there are certain incentives to being in a particular location. Unless those change... 

    You don't change behavior by just willing it so, particularly not when you're talking about groups of people. Behavior is more complex than perfectly elective decisions between equal choices all of the time. 

    No matter how you slice it "I don't like xyz facet of Lusternian culture" isn't a compelling argument to not make improvements to the game.

    EDIT: HECK, making it easier for Joe Blo the novice to reach out to me in a manse or on Ethereal and say "Can you come help me do xyz" or even just "Hello" is likely to make me come to Prime and hang out.  The incentives for novices being on Prime are different thhan those of more experienced players. They're far more likely to be on Prime than we are! The proposed change actually does something to help resolve the issue you're bringing up, not perpetuate it!
  • ElrynElryn Member Posts: 143 Capable
    Riluna said:

     I am, however, curious if the arguments for this can be developed more strongly (if it is indeed a meaningful change).
    I can only speak for myself, so this is entirely anecdotal.

    When I made an alt in Celest, there was literally only one other citymate I saw for a few days (again, maybe this is an Oceanic hours thing), and only about 7-8 in the who list across the whole world. It felt empty. Sure, there were apparently 4+ city people on other planes, and 25+ global players hidden from WHO, but those are faceless numbers that don't mean anything (what if they are just builder/admin characters who don't actually play?), and don't contribute to an immersive sense of a world.

    It's not that I couldn't talk to anyone at all - of course I could - but the perception was that there was only a couple of other established characters that I would likely cross paths with and who were going through the same experience in a shared world that I was, and that felt like a sparse and cold game. 

    Now, I actually don't think Lusternia has that big a problem with population (not at all), but the tools to see the number of other characters that are around you and allow you to start to recognise familiar faces and personalities seem to be working against that feeling of a vibrant world, for no good reason that I can see. The 'adventure' of remoteness and isolation by going off-plane can still be preserved without contributing to that unnecessary sense of emptiness in the broader game.

    Personally, the channel/tell aspect of it (being able to broadcast a statement or question to a faceless group of players) isn't of much interest to me. It's the tools to feel like part of an inhabited world, knowing there are friendly individuals to build some sort of continuing story with. That sense of virtual world persistence and immersion, which I think is partly being able to see that there are other people around you, having an effect on the same environment you are.

    I'm not saying I will necessarily act any differently, but I know it will certainly make playing in the world feel a lot different.
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    Enyalida said:

    The incentives for novices being on Prime are different than those of more experienced players. They're far more likely to be on Prime than we are! 

    This right here has been the crux of my entire position.

    For all the anecdotal evidence that some people sit around looking for people to shoot tells to, I have plenty of anecdotal evidence of people decidedly not willing to do so to complete strangers. It's intimidating as hell. But both of those positions are anecdotal at best. My point is I don't think any solution with the onus on the newbie is really going to make any effective difference.

    Do we not have any responsibility for our own actions? Even if not, wouldn't changing those incentives that affect the experienced players be more effective than a cosmetic one, in more ways than this?

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
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