Guild Overhaul Preview 1: Meet your guild

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Comments

  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 854 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:
    Kagato said:
    Xenthos said:
    Kagato said:
    Xenthos said:
    I suspect that you will keep those skills, so if you switch to that org you can flex to them all you want.

    As far as I know they do not refund lessons if you had learned them and the guild revoked your access to classflex, so I can't see the new system being more forgiving in that respect... (unless they do refund and I have just never heard of it, of course!)
    I mainly asked since at present you can still classflex to a guild skill outside of your city/commune, you just can't use skills that exclusively require power from a specific nexus.  Under the new system, you won't be able to access them at all unless you become a citizen of that city/commune is the impression I'm currently getting.
    Can you classflex to a guild that has revoked your classflex permissions?
    Not really the same thing.  Ultimately I'm not fussed on a personal level since I haven't taken up classflexing beyond a single trade skill.  Seems a bit wrong though that the door is abruptly slammed in one's face after a not-small investment, both on an in-game (building rapport with a guild and earning their trust so  you can flex to their skills) and meta level (getting a single guild skill to transcendent takes 285 credits) unless they move to another city, which carries it's own implications in that they will be locked out of skills obtained within THAT city unless they move back THERE again.  It's not particularly fair to expect someone to either a) change cities every time they want to flex to a skill not held by that city/commune or b) put up with a loss of up to 285 credits if they want to hold onto the skill on the outside chance that they will shift to that city/commune, or 58 credits worth of lessons from forgetting it permanently and transferring those lessons to their lesson pool.  Don't forget that not everyone has an abundance of credits and that purchases like that can be a VERY rare treat for some players.
    I guess I'm not sure how it's not the same thing.  Guilds won't exist, so classflex perms will be revoked.  Mechanically it is the same as if a guild leader stripped it from you, no?  What's the difference in your mind?  That it wasn't done at the whim of a player?
    I think that is an important distinction. It's the admins taking it away from you rather than it being 'naturally' taken away as a consequence of rp.
  • ReylariReylari Member Posts: 326 Fabled
    edited February 8
    Mechanics also allowed you to learn it in the first place, without joining that city, I think is what Kagato is getting at. If mechanics are now outright disallowing you to switch to a class you have learned, then the lessons should be refunded.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,428 Transcendent
    Reylari said:
    Mechanics also allowed you to learn it in the first place, without joining that city, I think is what Kagato is getting at. If mechanics are now outright disallowing you to switch to a class you have learned, then the lessons should be refunded.
    If we're going with the "mechanics allowed it," how are you differentiating between someone who guildhopped between a lot of guilds to learn their skills and make them dormant (collection) vs. someone who got them via classflex?  Because one of these knew when they were guildhopping that they were locking their lessons away (it was only later when classflex came out that it was viable to reactivate without going back to that org).

    I'm not sure that they keep track of that stuff...
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  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark Member Posts: 3,329 Transcendent
    Yeah I don't think it should be refunded. When I went to Glomdoring, I had all my cacophony skills still dormant, as well as tarot and spellcraft which would never be used in Glom, to save me should I return. If you don't plan to go to that org, you can forget them permanently and get a partial refund. Otherwise everyone who org hops should get a full refund of redundant skills for fairness.
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  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 854 Transcendent
    Lavinya said:
    Otherwise everyone who org hops should get a full refund of redundant skills for fairness.
    I support this too. Lessons in general are too expensive as I've said in the past.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,605 Transcendent
    Is this where I can line up for my lesson handout, I'm owed orghop backpay.
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  • IanirIanir Gods Posts: 186 Divine
    Sorry about the radio silence here. Outer-org classflexing is going to remain; however, we are changing the permission handling for this to cities rather than guilds at this time. Sorry for the confusion!
    Forum Avatar drawn by our lovely Isune.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,600 Mythical
    Ianir said:
    Sorry about the radio silence here. Outer-org classflexing is going to remain; however, we are changing the permission handling for this to cities rather than guilds at this time. Sorry for the confusion!
    Might not be decided yet, but would the lesson costs for switching change?

    Like would it be 100 for org classes and 200 for outer-org flexing? (like covenants) Or just a flat 200
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  • KagatoKagato Carmichael, CAMember Posts: 948 Fabled
    Ianir said:
    Sorry about the radio silence here. Outer-org classflexing is going to remain; however, we are changing the permission handling for this to cities rather than guilds at this time. Sorry for the confusion!
    Not a problem @Ianir, thank you for clarifying this - muchly appreciated!
  • TylwythTylwyth Member Posts: 1,374 Fabled
    How wiil inner org classflexing work?
    FOR pposters who aren't steingrim:

    image
  • DylaraDylara Member Posts: 1,286 Transcendent
    The same way I imagine, except you don't have to ask the guilds for permission and you will have the options to flex from the get go.

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • TylwythTylwyth Member Posts: 1,374 Fabled
    If there are no guilds who gives permission though?
    FOR pposters who aren't steingrim:

    image
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,428 Transcendent
    Tylwyth said:
    If there are no guilds who gives permission though?
    That's why you don't have to ask...
    image
  • DylaraDylara Member Posts: 1,286 Transcendent
    Tylwyth said:
    If there are no guilds who gives permission though?
    Nobody, like I said, you will have the option from the beginning.

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,095 Fabled
    It's automatic. Basically just think of it like now except every guild gives you permission automatically. They can't say no.
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,303 Transcendent
    What's going to happen with guild based emotes? Like, Aquas have one that explicitly has them making a bubble of water, Aeros have at least one invoking wind, etc.
  • BreandrynBreandryn Member Posts: 1,431 Transcendent
    @Ianir - will guild honors still be a thing? I think those are so cool and I hope I don't miss the chance to ever earn one :/
  • IanirIanir Gods Posts: 186 Divine
    Breandryn said:
    @Ianir - will guild honors still be a thing? I think those are so cool and I hope I don't miss the chance to ever earn one :/
    Yes, though we're currently trying to figure out a way to handle those. Currently, they're handled via hardcode, which while we're happy to do, I'd prefer to make a bit more interesting if they're done that way. There's a few other ways we can handle them, but that would require us to make the process similar but slightly different enough for every guild. And then there's the idea, I posted it in one of these previews, of gating it behind promotions.

    Regardless, they will exist. They may just not exist immediately or in the same form.
    Forum Avatar drawn by our lovely Isune.
  • IanirIanir Gods Posts: 186 Divine
    edited March 3
    At the request of another administrator and due to a lot of confusion, here's the full list of investible powers for reference.

    Investible Powers:
    • ARCHIVIST - Allows member with privilege to edit organisation-owned books.
    • BANK - Allows member to withdraw from organisation bank accounts.
    • DIPLOMACY - Allows member to view organisation-specific enemy information.
    • GHELP - Allows member to edit/create GHELP files.
    • GMEMBERS - Allows member to view a list of guild members with rank.
    • GTS - Allows member to utilise secret guild chat channel.
    • HARVEST - Allows member to harvest flesh/crystals.
    • HARVESTGRANT - Allows member to grant above Harvest privilege to another member.
    • HARVESTLOG - Allows member to read the log for flesh/crystal harvests.
    • INGUILD - Allows member ability to induct new guildmembers.
    • LEDGER - Allows member ability to review and maintain organisation property such as clans, cartels, and aetherships.
    • MEMBERINFO - Allows member to see the 'score' of a guild member.
    • MESSAGE - Allows member to modify GUILDMESSAGE announcements
    • OUTGUILD - Allows member to eject another person from the guild.
    • PROMOTE - Allows member ability to promote another member to the next rank.
    • TITLE - Allows member ability to SUFFIX/PREFIX another member.
    • WRITENEWS - Allows member ability to write to organisation news.
    All privileges listed can be inserted into positions. Ranks can receive the following: gts|gmembers|title|writenews|memberinfo|promote|diplomacy|inguild
    Post edited by Ianir on
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  • BreandrynBreandryn Member Posts: 1,431 Transcendent
    edited March 3
    Maybe some of these are automatically assigned, but it sounds like things are shifting to fully investable. Apologies if there's any overlap, but here are things that look to be missing + some suggestions and tweaks:

    - READLOG - investible?

    - GUILDFAVOR - I know things were shifted to promotions, but is favoring being removed entirely? I love giving out favors to recognize work.

    - GUILDMSG - not seeing this on the list but that would be great to have investible

    - PROBATION - is this not used in Lusternia?

    - LASTLOGIN - missing

    - PROJECTS - missing

    - GUILD CREDITS - will remain GM-only? 

    - GUILD SET NEWSWRITE - being given to GM? In that case, NEWSWRITE needs to be set as an investible power

    - Guild enemy - Diplomacy is the only skill listed here. Also need a way to enemy/ally and view enemies.

    - BANKACCOUNTS will be needed to go along with withdrawls.

    - PREFIX/SUFFIX - missing

    - STABLES - missing

    - Guild newbie commands missing: locate novices, newbiewatch, auto prefix/suffix

    - MEMBERINFO - adjust this to include some details from STATUS. Lessons, in particular, are really useful to know for helping teach new players, as are hunger/rest levels, reincarnations and enemy statuses. Also missing:
    -- RIFT
    -- INVENTORY
    -- SKILLS

    - GUILD COMPOSE NOVICES - for HELP GUILDNOVICES <org>.

    - Will ledger cover the other aspects? The description makes it sound like it's just for guild properties, but ledger also lets you do a disparate collection of things like teleport to novices, creep on guild members races and see what percent of your guild is at what guild rank. These are not a unified collection of abilities if we're going to be building custom ranks and splitting them up would let us have one person managing novices while another handles manses.

    - How are secretaries going to be appointed? Is outst something that will be needed?

    - GMEMBERS NAME/RANK <#>: Let us sort gmembers by rank or alphabetically. Appending a rank number only shows members from that rank up. Eg GMEMBERS RANK 3 would show gmembers from lowest rank to highest, starting at those who are rank 3.

    - GMSG <role>: New suggestion, but so darn useful. Let us message all the secretaries in one message. Alternatively, new message syntax to message multiple people in one message.

    - Planes - how will enemy status for guardians work now? Protecting our plane is a bit part of RP but it sounds like this is being shifted to a class-less system with the security ministry. Is this going to have RP effects? Is the role of guardians being thematically adjusted? Currently guardians quite mechanically guard and nurture their plane, through things like control of harvesting and branding enemies to the plane. Probably a bigger discussion for elsewhere, but these changes seem to be removing a mechanical aspect of an entire archetype. I'd love to see some small skills or fluff in return, like a way to send our ents to scent out the plane or perhaps a shift to enhancing the plane instead of guarding it since we're losing most of the guardian tools we have as a guild.
    Post edited by Breandryn on
  • ThalkrosThalkros Member Posts: 199 Gifted
    edited March 3
    A lot of those are literally in the post above. They are just named slightly different. Like title is your prefix/suffix, message is guild message, etc
  • IsuneIsune Gods Posts: 375 Divine
    I will answer for what I know and await @Ianir to fill out the rest.

    Breandryn said:

    - GUILDFAVOR - I know things were shifted to promotions, but is favoring being removed entirely? I love giving out favors to recognize work.
    Guildfavours are being removed entirely, yes. We are shifting to PROMOTE only. 

    - GUILDMSG - not seeing this on the list but that would be great to have investible
    This is investible, it is named MESSAGE above.

    - PROBATION - is this not used in Lusternia?
    This was used with the novice system if I recall and that is going away.

    - PREFIX/SUFFIX - missing
    This is under TITLE

    - STABLES - missing
    I believe this is deprecated as only 1 guild ever had one.

    - Will ledger cover the other aspects? The description makes it sound like it's just for guild properties, but ledger also lets you do a disparate collection of things like teleport to novices, creep on guild members races and see what percent of your guild is at what guild rank. These are not a unified collection of abilities if we're going to be building custom ranks and splitting them up would let us have one person managing novices while another handles manses.
    Ianir will need to confirm, but when ledger was brought up, we wanted to port the entirety to an investible privilege.
  • BreandrynBreandryn Member Posts: 1,431 Transcendent
    Thalkros said:
    A lot of those are literally in the post above. They are just named slightly different. Like title is your prefix/suffix, message is guild message, etc
    I don't think there is any harm double checking while we are still in the design phase, even if I repeat a few things by mistake.
  • IanirIanir Gods Posts: 186 Divine
    Breandryn said:
    Maybe some of these are automatically assigned, but it sounds like things are shifting to fully investable. Apologies if there's any overlap, but here are things that look to be missing + some suggestions and tweaks:

    - READLOG - investible?

    - GUILDFAVOR - I know things were shifted to promotions, but is favoring being removed entirely? I love giving out favors to recognize work.

    - GUILDMSG - not seeing this on the list but that would be great to have investible

    - PROBATION - is this not used in Lusternia?

    - LASTLOGIN - missing

    - GUILD CREDITS - will remain GM-only? 

    - GUILD SET NEWSWRITE - being given to GM? In that case, NEWSWRITE needs to be set as an investible power

    - Guild enemy - Diplomacy is the only skill listed here. Also need a way to enemy/ally and view enemies.

    - BANKACCOUNTS will be needed to go along with withdrawls.

    - PREFIX/SUFFIX - missing

    - STABLES - missing

    - Guild newbie commands missing: locate novices, newbiewatch, auto prefix/suffix

    - MEMBERINFO - adjust this to include some details from STATUS. Lessons, in particular, are really useful to know for helping teach new players, as are hunger/rest levels, reincarnations and enemy statuses. Also missing:
    -- RIFT
    -- INVENTORY
    -- SKILLS

    - GUILD COMPOSE NOVICES - for HELP GUILDNOVICES <org>.

    - Will ledger cover the other aspects? The description makes it sound like it's just for guild properties, but ledger also lets you do a disparate collection of things like teleport to novices, creep on guild members races and see what percent of your guild is at what guild rank. These are not a unified collection of abilities if we're going to be building custom ranks and splitting them up would let us have one person managing novices while another handles manses.

    - How are secretaries going to be appointed? Is outst something that will be needed?

    - GMEMBERS NAME/RANK <#>: Let us sort gmembers by rank or alphabetically. Appending a rank number only shows members from that rank up. Eg GMEMBERS RANK 3 would show gmembers from lowest rank to highest, starting at those who are rank 3.

    - GMSG <role>: New suggestion, but so darn useful. Let us message all the secretaries in one message. Alternatively, new message syntax to message multiple people in one message.

    - Planes - how will enemy status for guardians work now? Protecting our plane is a bit part of RP but it sounds like this is being shifted to a class-less system with the security ministry. Is this going to have RP effects? Is the role of guardians being thematically adjusted? Currently guardians quite mechanically guard and nurture their plane, through things like control of harvesting and branding enemies to the plane. Probably a bigger discussion for elsewhere, but these changes seem to be removing a mechanical aspect of an entire archetype. I'd love to see some small skills or fluff in return, like a way to send our ents to scent out the plane or perhaps a shift to enhancing the plane instead of guarding it since we're losing most of the guardian tools we have as a guild.
    READLOG - Rank 1
    GUILDFAVOUR - Removed, in favour of promote
    GUILDMSG - Named MESSAGE
    PROBATION - Hasn't been used since 2006. Removed.
    LASTLOGIN - See MEMBERINFO
    GUILD CREDITS - Will remain GM-only. Obvious reasons.
    NEWSWRITE - Will get back to you on that
    Enemy list - In DIPLOMACY
    BANKACCOUNTS - Included in BANK
    PREFIX/SUFFIX - See TITLE
    STABLES - We've had literally one guild in 12+ years buy stables. If the new ones have an interest, we can revisit it. Otherwise, removed.
    Newbie commands: Guilds no longer have novices. Moved to city ministry. See preview 3.
    MEMBERINFO - Noted on status. I believe I actually added that for the city ministry? Will check on it.
    COMPOSE NOVICES - Novices have been removed from guilds, tied into collegium/org en masse. Removed.
    LEDGER - Novice functionality removed. Property functionality has LEDGER. Rest in various privileges.
    Secretaries - Now a variety of customisable positions. GL handles and delegates.
    GMEMBERS sorting - good idea, will add to the list
    GMSG - good idea, will add to the list
    Planes - probably for a bigger discussion elsewhere, but each org has been thematically tied into all its planes (ideally) in some way, shape, or form. Mechanically, class is divorced from guild and all class skills should check active class rather than guild.
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  • BreandrynBreandryn Member Posts: 1,431 Transcendent
    edited March 3
    Will we see a lot of the novice commands given to education ministry aide instead? I love being able to see where newbies are, see them login, teleport to them. Edit: This makes me sound creepy but I swear I'm not >_>

    If secretaries are all being just appointed positions, will we be given some new commands to easily figure out who is what? Unsure if we have the command here, but in Achaea there was a useful command akin to GUILD/CITY LEADERSHIP that listed the important names in a quick/easy readout.
  • IanirIanir Gods Posts: 186 Divine
    Breandryn said:
    Will we see a lot of the novice commands given to education ministry aide instead? I love being able to see where newbies are, see them login, teleport to them. Edit: This makes me sound creepy but I swear I'm not >_>
    Yeah, it's all set up. Go check out the third preview - I spent a good hour and a half writing it, it has most of the info you're asking about!

    Breandryn said:

    If secretaries are all being just appointed positions, will we be given some new commands to easily figure out who is what? Unsure if we have the command here, but in Achaea there was a useful command akin to GUILD/CITY LEADERSHIP that listed the important names in a quick/easy readout.
    HELP <guild>
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  • BreandrynBreandryn Member Posts: 1,431 Transcendent
    Sorry, I have read it all, it's just a lot of new information. Sorry for bothering.
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