Regarding hemorrhaging, I'm hesitant to make it a burst mechanic that completely resets offense on failure. I agree with the concept of a window to execute it, but note that both the building and the execution are aff reliant, and if it completely resets offense on top of that, then it's hardly a mechanic that makes sense with its design. If there's some way to retain some of the progress after the window passes (instead of a full reset) I think that might be a better idea.
If burst must be a full reset, then my suggestion is this: halve, or even third the insta requirements as well as the hemorrhaging caps.
Keep in mind that nearly every guardian has to deal with a window which when reset requires another minute or so to setup again, and they aren't nearly as effective in their setup of their instakill as we are, and with the exception of meteor they get nothing when that instakill fails and we get a hefty amount of vital pressure.
All that being said I think we can adjust the amount of hemorrhaging built, or make it so that when you burst only half of it gets cured/converted to bleeding but the full amount counts towards the insta which would give you a head-start on the next reset but only if you've invested the full amount in once. I'd rather adjust those two things than adjust the actual bleeding requirements because certain guild combinations can build 750 bleeding rather easily in group situations and I don't think it should be that easy to just work your way up to killer and execute.
Regarding paralysis + blindness, can we have blindness cured by dust instead of faeleaf? That, combined with #1603 will solve the problem. I can't remember why it was kept in faeleaf in the first place - was it to ensure that people can choose to cure blindness via faeleaf instead of having to rely on rng cures? If so, with focus and the concurrent paralysis curing report, it'll put things back into where they are supposed to be: two different hinder affs, but which effectively don't stack.
As Ciaran noted moving blindness to dust proper would make things worse. I wouldn't be opposed to it in addition to one of the other changes I suggested (like disabling envenom mantakaya/niricol). My understanding of 1603 is the same as Ciaran's, that they are going to make paralysis instantly cured but in the context of a dust stack that doesn't change much. Right now the ideal thing to do when confronted with blindness + paralysis is to powerfocus paralysis first to burn the delay and then eat faeleaf. The only thing that making paralysis instant will change is that order will no longer matter (you can cure blindness first and be hindered for an equal amount of time).
I can't check reports right now what is the blind/para report solution?
In flux right now re: Para. We were going to just remove the delay on curing, but somebody pointed out a few issues with this. We're currently looking into the original solutions again, though aren't particularly happy with any of them.
Ah, I misread the report. There is no solution 3 on it, so I have no idea what it's supposed to be. If it is, as you say, just making paralysis an instant cure, then moving paralysis curing to faeleaf would be a good idea instead. Them stacking on each other but not requiring focus to cure off will be the right move. Basically, you will need both affs to mimic the current effect of paralysis. That is fine, I think. Having to focus on top of that is probably still too much of stacking. I do still think concurrent curing (sol2) is a better idea, because of that. But anyway, w/e.
Regarding the insta framework, like I said, it simply makes no sense to completely reset an attrition mechanic that takes almost as long as a warrior's to build - if not longer. I don't support Wobou's framework unless a portion of hemorrhaging, say, 75%, is reinstated at the end of the window (assuming the monk failed to instakill) - that, or my suggestion of lowering the caps and requirements to make it a burst mechanic.
Basically, if it's a full offense reset, the build time needs to be significantly shorter. If the build time remains as is, then some form of refund on failure is needed.
All that being said I think we can adjust the amount of hemorrhaging built, or make it so that when you burst only half of it gets cured/converted to bleeding but the full amount counts towards the insta which would give you a head-start on the next reset but only if you've invested the full amount in once. I'd rather adjust those two things than adjust the actual bleeding requirements because certain guild combinations can build 750 bleeding rather easily in group situations and I don't think it should be that easy to just work your way up to killer and execute.
I'm fine with increasing hemorrhaging building rate if dropping the cap/reqs is not the preferred way. I'm fine with a refund-on-failure, or just burst consuming half (I think 75% might be fairer, but 50% is fine for a starting place pending further changes with logs), which is basically a refund. But either way, full reset with the current rate just doesn't seem to make sense to me.
In flux right now re: Para. We were going to just remove the delay on curing, but somebody pointed out a few issues with this. We're currently looking into the original solutions again, though aren't particularly happy with any of them.
Blindness, we approved and are adding a line.
If I could've voted 100 times for concurrence I would've. If you can tell me why folks are unhappy with that solution I can try to come up with something that addresses your concerns. I think it'd be a good change for the whole game but more selfishly it'd mean that I wouldn't have to worry about this stack on monks and can focus on fun things like monk instas.
Just to bring up something Tyamit said in the previous page: blind+para exists in other IREs too, but they don't have our para delay. The idea of removing the delay, to basically change that combination to be the same as the other IREs, is, on theory, a solid move.
However, it should be noted that blind+para (without our cure delay) in the other IREs ARE considered a problem in some places. As Enyalida mentioned in #1603 and elsewhere, some of them have taken steps to curb that very interaction already. I think concurrent curing of paralysis without removing the cure delay might be something we can try, and it'd be unique to us. It could create more problems, of course, but we can step in to tackle that if they crop up.
Edited to add: Concurrent curing will need blindness to be moved to dust still, I think, so that those two can be cured together. The idea is basically that blindness and paralysis are stacking together too much, (or rather, paralysis and everything else cured by dust balance is stacking together too much), so creating a way where paralysis remains impactful (at least 1s attack/movement restriction) but can be cured at the same time as any one of the other dust affs, is the best solution. If blindness remains on faeleaf as a cure, then you won't be able to cure blindness and paralysis concurrently - so you have to move blindness back to dust, or to allow faeleaf to also cure paralysis concurrently. Either way works.
As a note wobou some monks can give blind para via mods without using poisons so any poison changes you make won't resolve the issue.
Ah yes I forgot about Tahtetso/Nekotai's blind arm actions, Ninjakari and Shofangi have blindness too but Ninjakari's reliable blind is surge-gated and shofangi's is on grapples so I think those are lesser sources. Tahtetso should maybe not have reliable blind starting at base even outside of this discussion but we can figure that out after the paralysis + blindness combination is dealt with, which as you've noted can't be accomplished with poison changes.
Yea blindness on steam seems almost more powerful than dust for some classes, you'd just be shifting a anti attack stack from one class to another.
What's the issue with concurrent curing i thought that was universally accepted as a good way to do it as it returns paralysis to preoverhaul effectiveness what with previously being able to cure para and blind at the same time. I've not heard anyone objecting to this way yet?
As a note wobou some monks can give blind para via mods without using poisons so any poison changes you make won't resolve the issue.
Ah yes I forgot about Tahtetso/Nekotai's blind arm actions, Ninjakari and Shofangi have blindness too but Ninjakari's reliable blind is surge-gated and shofangi's is on grapples so I think those are lesser sources. Tahtetso should maybe not have reliable blind starting at base even outside of this discussion but we can figure that out after the paralysis + blindness combination is dealt with, which as you've noted can't be accomplished with poison changes.
Also tahs para kick as well so para kick blind punch etc.
Blindness on Achaea is a salve (ice) cure. Not sure how that would affect things here.
Blindness in other IRE games also don't need to be cured. They all have mindseye tattoos that let them see while blind, and hear while deaf. Much like truedeaf/trueblind, with the exception that only a handful of things can strip it.
I'm not sure what weight it carries, but I also think paralysis curing concurrent (it could keep the delay) is a better solution.
It would need to cure concurrently also on faeleaf though. (Or move blindness to dust, which I'm not a huge fan of personally).
Curing concurrently with faeleaf seems a sensible solution to me. Leave blind cured on faeleaf. You can just eat faeleaf to cure both but still get a bit hindered with para due to the delayed cure.
That'll restore the pre overhaul status quo of paralysis as pretty much being cured right away with focus but still having the delay on being actually paralyzed. It'll mean its a good useful affliction that still hinders it just means it wont stack with blind which I thought was one of the issues everyone had with it?
Blind + paralysis is very strong, but that's not the only problem with the dust stack. Haemophilia is also a very high priority dust aff for those who can stack dust. This leaves dysentery, rigormortis, vomiting, sickening, scabies, pox, powersap and relapsing as other dust affs that are typically not seen as being very strong because the effects don't tic immediately, but when stacked on top of two other balances to cure blind/paralysis and haemophilia, this makes these on-tic affs very strong too.
I've no real problem with having an affliction stack like slush and dust stacks being powerful and useful in themselves to build though. I figure fix the blind/para issue first and then see how it works from there.
I also highly support the concurrent cure solution. I think the cure delay on paralysis is the best part of it, and I wish more afflictions were on a delay. With a delay, it allows things to be useful while not necessarily needing an overwhelming amount of affliction pressure. Conversely, not having a delay can lead to issues just like with bleeding and bruising on the extreme end.
Side note: The buff to damagedorgans has a huge impact on monks.
This is one balance:
A thick-boned, dun mare with a white mane opens her jaws and releases a rank, putrescent blast of
stale air and rotten chunks of tissue at you.
You are afflicted with an unknown affliction.
You are afflicted with an unknown affliction.
You are afflicted with an unknown affliction.
[04:8]0.08|79r, 9460h, 9535m, 10800e, 3p mBxk|scro|equi|ice|spar|965/965|intern burns damage damage
unknow -
You feel something deep within you hemorrhage. You've increased your hemorrhaging by 135 for a total
of 1100 hemorrhaging. As Wobou starts his form, he shreds through your defenses.
Wobou whips a clawed fist through the air in front of you, to no effect.
As Wobou starts his form, he taps a few places on your body and you feel the bleeding flow free.
Wobou wildly twists and turns, kicking his legs out behind him. One thunderous kick slams into your
chest, which caves in with a sickening crunch.
Your ribs collapse painfully inward.
You are afflicted with crushedchest. Wobou slices Chukraksi il-Aghuril, the Incandescent cleanly through the air in front of you. You
blink several times as it appears that he missed you, but then pain blossoms in a line across your
neck as blood gushes out of a long, razor-thin cut.
The idea of eating is repulsive to you.
You are afflicted with anorexia.
Wobou smashes the butt of Lumooshsi, the Tranquil into your jaw, sending fragments of bone through
your tongue and splitting it down the middle; your mouth quickly fills with blood.
Blood drips from your ear as a massive headache sets in.
You are afflicted with damagedskull.
You suddenly feel lightheaded.
You are afflicted with haemophilia.
[04:9]0.08|79r, 8103h, 9535m, 10800e, 3p mBxk|scro|equi|ice|spar|2397/0|intern damage burns damage
anorex damage bleedi unknow haemop crushe Wobou - reprinted status
You clear your mind, no longer preparing to act.
For those of you keeping score at home, that's 4 dust affs, two ice affs, and anorexia in one combo (plus a bonus raze built in!)
To be fair, 3 of those affs came from a limited ascendant power, and, if I'm not mistaken, Wobou spent 5p on that form.
The two ice affs will be gone by the time he regains balance - and possibly damaged organs as well, maybe. Anorexia will be gone as well. That leaves you with 4 dust affs, and if Wobou is lucky, one of the two dust affs you'll have left when he regains balance will be one that boosts his hemorrhaging... if not, he literally spent 5p for no additional hemorrhaging - which is literally the only route to his instakill. For 5p.
Edit: Sorry, I forgot that the Shofangi have a raze stance. So that's 2p. Well, much better than I thought it was, then. Still, mostly from the ascendant beast.
Viscanti green lock is possible for a few monks now. More a racial issue than anything though. Races like viscanti and lucidian could do with a bigger nerf than is pending in their reports.
Side note: The buff to damagedorgans has a huge impact on monks.
For those of you keeping score at home, that's 4 dust affs, two ice affs, and anorexia in one combo (plus a bonus raze built in!)
In fairness to me that may have been 2 dust affs and epilepsy from ur'life. :P Also that's three ice affs, not two. (Crushed chest, damaged skull, damaged throat).
Lerad is correct, I spent 2p for that form, the raze is from my killer stance.
Edit: For the record while I do think damaged organs gives great reliability to my combo, I don't think I necessarily am benefiting tremendously more from current damaged organs than I was from the last iteration of damaged organs, previously damaged organs allowed me to extend your ice balance to 2.5s which increased the odds that you wouldn't be able to cure damaged throat in time.
I also don't think we should be balancing heavily around ur'life. If we do that then all other shofangi are going to fare poorly, also I have a special report about changing shofangi's hemorrhaging affs to not double up with ur'life as hard.
Viscanti green lock is possible for a few monks now. More a racial issue than anything though. Races like viscanti and lucidian could do with a bigger nerf than is pending in their reports.
It was discussed changing Viscanti away from asthma IIRC (even before monk overhaul), but it was decided to keep it and just nerf the damage. I'm still in support of changing it, though.
I think re: viscanti that there should probably be at least a 1 second cooldown on all those effects, monks shouldn't have triple the proc rate of other guilds to proc breaths/shouldergun/taurian/etc.
I kinda think the ascendant beast could maybe do with a bit of a nerf as well. Not just for monks but well theres a bunch of classes who could totally consume your balances if it procs three times.
You have to balance for the outliers though. If that means nerfing the outlier, that's fine, but I don't think it's fair to say that we should disregard them when looking at everything else going on.
You have to balance for the outliers though. If that means nerfing the outlier, that's fine, but I don't think it's fair to say that we should disregard them when looking at everything else going on.
Sorry what I meant to say was, we shouldn't be balancing such that ur'life is required. Nerfing ur'life is fine, nerfing shofangi to the point where ur'life is needed to build hemorrhaging would not be fine.
All of that being said, ur'life is very strong but has little to do with how I'm killing people, outside of making hemorrhaging quicker to build (which there's a report in to at least partially address). I'm killing people through a combination of the hindering of manta+niricol (which I'm hoping will still be addressed) and my ice stack. The ice stack doing most of the heavy lifting for actually achieving crunch.
Manta+niricol stacks with the dust though and forces me to powerfocus a lot, as well as increasing the stick potential of haemophilia. It buffs your kit pretty significantly, without taking into account the ice affs that you can do on top of that!
Anyway, I think the dust beast is in line for a nerf, I'd make it do 300 dmg + one dust aff or something like that.
Comments
All that being said I think we can adjust the amount of hemorrhaging built, or make it so that when you burst only half of it gets cured/converted to bleeding but the full amount counts towards the insta which would give you a head-start on the next reset but only if you've invested the full amount in once. I'd rather adjust those two things than adjust the actual bleeding requirements because certain guild combinations can build 750 bleeding rather easily in group situations and I don't think it should be that easy to just work your way up to killer and execute.
As Ciaran noted moving blindness to dust proper would make things worse. I wouldn't be opposed to it in addition to one of the other changes I suggested (like disabling envenom mantakaya/niricol). My understanding of 1603 is the same as Ciaran's, that they are going to make paralysis instantly cured but in the context of a dust stack that doesn't change much. Right now the ideal thing to do when confronted with blindness + paralysis is to powerfocus paralysis first to burn the delay and then eat faeleaf. The only thing that making paralysis instant will change is that order will no longer matter (you can cure blindness first and be hindered for an equal amount of time).
Blindness, we approved and are adding a line.
You get blind/para you eat faeleaf and both are cured. No stacking right?
Regarding the insta framework, like I said, it simply makes no sense to completely reset an attrition mechanic that takes almost as long as a warrior's to build - if not longer. I don't support Wobou's framework unless a portion of hemorrhaging, say, 75%, is reinstated at the end of the window (assuming the monk failed to instakill) - that, or my suggestion of lowering the caps and requirements to make it a burst mechanic.
Basically, if it's a full offense reset, the build time needs to be significantly shorter. If the build time remains as is, then some form of refund on failure is needed.
I'm fine with increasing hemorrhaging building rate if dropping the cap/reqs is not the preferred way. I'm fine with a refund-on-failure, or just burst consuming half (I think 75% might be fairer, but 50% is fine for a starting place pending further changes with logs), which is basically a refund. But either way, full reset with the current rate just doesn't seem to make sense to me.
If I could've voted 100 times for concurrence I would've. If you can tell me why folks are unhappy with that solution I can try to come up with something that addresses your concerns. I think it'd be a good change for the whole game but more selfishly it'd mean that I wouldn't have to worry about this stack on monks and can focus on fun things like monk instas.
However, it should be noted that blind+para (without our cure delay) in the other IREs ARE considered a problem in some places. As Enyalida mentioned in #1603 and elsewhere, some of them have taken steps to curb that very interaction already. I think concurrent curing of paralysis without removing the cure delay might be something we can try, and it'd be unique to us. It could create more problems, of course, but we can step in to tackle that if they crop up.
Edited to add: Concurrent curing will need blindness to be moved to dust still, I think, so that those two can be cured together. The idea is basically that blindness and paralysis are stacking together too much, (or rather, paralysis and everything else cured by dust balance is stacking together too much), so creating a way where paralysis remains impactful (at least 1s attack/movement restriction) but can be cured at the same time as any one of the other dust affs, is the best solution. If blindness remains on faeleaf as a cure, then you won't be able to cure blindness and paralysis concurrently - so you have to move blindness back to dust, or to allow faeleaf to also cure paralysis concurrently. Either way works.
Discord: Pharanyx#4357
What's the issue with concurrent curing i thought that was universally accepted as a good way to do it as it returns paralysis to preoverhaul effectiveness what with previously being able to cure para and blind at the same time. I've not heard anyone objecting to this way yet?
Discord: Rey#1460
It would need to cure concurrently also on faeleaf though. (Or move blindness to dust, which I'm not a huge fan of personally).
That'll restore the pre overhaul status quo of paralysis as pretty much being cured right away with focus but still having the delay on being actually paralyzed. It'll mean its a good useful affliction that still hinders it just means it wont stack with blind which I thought was one of the issues everyone had with it?
This is one balance:
A thick-boned, dun mare with a white mane opens her jaws and releases a rank, putrescent blast of stale air and rotten chunks of tissue at you.
You are afflicted with an unknown affliction.
You are afflicted with an unknown affliction.
You are afflicted with an unknown affliction.
[04:8]0.08|79r, 9460h, 9535m, 10800e, 3p mBxk|scro|equi|ice|spar|965/965|intern burns damage damage unknow -
You feel something deep within you hemorrhage. You've increased your hemorrhaging by 135 for a total of 1100 hemorrhaging.
As Wobou starts his form, he shreds through your defenses.
Wobou whips a clawed fist through the air in front of you, to no effect.
As Wobou starts his form, he taps a few places on your body and you feel the bleeding flow free.
Wobou wildly twists and turns, kicking his legs out behind him. One thunderous kick slams into your chest, which caves in with a sickening crunch. Your ribs collapse painfully inward.
You are afflicted with crushedchest.
Wobou slices Chukraksi il-Aghuril, the Incandescent cleanly through the air in front of you.
You blink several times as it appears that he missed you, but then pain blossoms in a line across your neck as blood gushes out of a long, razor-thin cut.
The idea of eating is repulsive to you.
You are afflicted with anorexia.
Wobou smashes the butt of Lumooshsi, the Tranquil into your jaw, sending fragments of bone through your tongue and splitting it down the middle; your mouth quickly fills with blood.
Blood drips from your ear as a massive headache sets in.
You are afflicted with damagedskull.
You suddenly feel lightheaded.
You are afflicted with haemophilia.
[04:9]0.08|79r, 8103h, 9535m, 10800e, 3p mBxk|scro|equi|ice|spar|2397/0|intern damage burns damage anorex damage bleedi unknow haemop crushe Wobou - reprinted status
You clear your mind, no longer preparing to act.
For those of you keeping score at home, that's 4 dust affs, two ice affs, and anorexia in one combo (plus a bonus raze built in!)
The two ice affs will be gone by the time he regains balance - and possibly damaged organs as well, maybe. Anorexia will be gone as well. That leaves you with 4 dust affs, and if Wobou is lucky, one of the two dust affs you'll have left when he regains balance will be one that boosts his hemorrhaging... if not, he literally spent 5p for no additional hemorrhaging - which is literally the only route to his instakill. For 5p.
Edit: Sorry, I forgot that the Shofangi have a raze stance. So that's 2p. Well, much better than I thought it was, then. Still, mostly from the ascendant beast.
Lerad is correct, I spent 2p for that form, the raze is from my killer stance.
Edit: For the record while I do think damaged organs gives great reliability to my combo, I don't think I necessarily am benefiting tremendously more from current damaged organs than I was from the last iteration of damaged organs, previously damaged organs allowed me to extend your ice balance to 2.5s which increased the odds that you wouldn't be able to cure damaged throat in time.
I also don't think we should be balancing heavily around ur'life. If we do that then all other shofangi are going to fare poorly, also I have a special report about changing shofangi's hemorrhaging affs to not double up with ur'life as hard.
All of that being said, ur'life is very strong but has little to do with how I'm killing people, outside of making hemorrhaging quicker to build (which there's a report in to at least partially address). I'm killing people through a combination of the hindering of manta+niricol (which I'm hoping will still be addressed) and my ice stack. The ice stack doing most of the heavy lifting for actually achieving crunch.
Anyway, I think the dust beast is in line for a nerf, I'd make it do 300 dmg + one dust aff or something like that.