Praying for Salvation

OrventaOrventa Member Posts: 576 Mythical
Can we please nix the extra 10-15% xp loss from praying for salvation? With vitae up, I die, then die again that's loss, stacked upon loss for praying. :( 


I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots.
Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
«1

Comments

  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 400 Creator
    Orventa said:
    Can we please nix the extra 10-15% xp loss from praying for salvation? With vitae up, I die, then die again that's loss, stacked upon loss for praying. :( 
    This is more a matter for an envoy report. Feel free to discuss it with your org's envoys. A good route may be removing XP loss on Vitae (or lowering it considerably).
    Forum Avatar drawn by our lovely Isune.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,614 Transcendent
    edited June 27
    Experience is cheap and it's already easy enough to get back what you lose. If experience loss was lowered/removed on vitae then there'd be even more reason to just bring lowbies up to Astral and power leveling them all day.

    I like that praying for salvation has a big experience cost because it incentivises people to actually use resurrection skills or immolate.
  • OrventaOrventa Member Posts: 576 Mythical
    Because it's so easy to get say 'help someone come get me and rez me' while you're dead. You're not impacted because you're already TA with fancy powers. Not everyone can be around to grab someone and rez them a the drop of a hat. 

    Right? 

    Anyway, I still think a double whammy of xp loss is ridiculous when using vitae and then having to pray for salvation.

    But I'll be poking at envoys to see if anything can be done.


    I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots.
    Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 903 Transcendent
    Vitae is great. Sure, sometimes you die twice, but sometimes you're back in the fight instantly. If you can don't care about the essence or death count (which is pretty meaningless), then you should use it. The real drawback is the power cost, imo, but that's pretty minor as well.

    As for the main topic, I think there should be some loss so there's a risk to dying. But maybe praying should be faster, it does take you out of the game for a long time.
  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 671 Mythical
    Dis forumzerg tho
  • TirahTirah Member Posts: 397 Mythical
    Tarkenton said:
    Vitae is great for aetherhunts.
    Literally the only thing I use it for.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Resurgem works for non-Serens too, it's just more expensive if you don't have Stag or Moon totem and there are arpee reasons to not resurgem all foreigners. 
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,727 Transcendent
    Death penalties are always a thing, having XP loss as opposed to even longer downtimes is logical.

    Imagine if instead of losing xp/essence you had to wait 2 minutes before any form of resurrection could even begin. How many people would look at the game and go "no thanks"

    On the off chance the "but you're a TA!" argument pops up, I lost a good 15-20% of titan praying after a dumb error, it sucked but rather than bemoan the system I dusted off and carried on.

    P4S is very much avoidable off Prime thanks to conglugate, on Prime if you're dying and dying again from vitae before you can move out, the issue is more about you putting yourself in a situation you couldn't handle, and not recognising this earlier and avoiding it.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,639 Transcendent
    Maybe instead of removing/reducing xp loss from vitae, allow a syntax to remove vitae from your blood to lower the defence. If needed, have it cost power too.

    image
  • OrventaOrventa Member Posts: 576 Mythical
    Karlach said:
    Death penalties are always a thing, having XP loss as opposed to even longer downtimes is logical.

    Imagine if instead of losing xp/essence you had to wait 2 minutes before any form of resurrection could even begin. How many people would look at the game and go "no thanks"

    On the off chance the "but you're a TA!" argument pops up, I lost a good 15-20% of titan praying after a dumb error, it sucked but rather than bemoan the system I dusted off and carried on.

    P4S is very much avoidable off Prime thanks to conglugate, on Prime if you're dying and dying again from vitae before you can move out, the issue is more about you putting yourself in a situation you couldn't handle, and not recognising this earlier and avoiding it.
    Thing is, Imperian got rid of xp loss on death entirely like back in 2013..(?) to promote PK, Though they also have a system where pvp/pk xp is separate from regular xp. 

    Though this is now just going into 'xp in general' territory vs 'I think vitae could be looked at'.

    I personally, wouldn't mind having the option of waiting 1-2 min if it meant less to no xp loss. This is assuming there is no one that can help me (they can't/don't want to get to me, or pulling them in would only result in them dying too, ie- Heartstone putting them in a dangerous place)

     Or:

    -Kick it with the Fates, or like have the opportunity to have a Ghost only realm to complete a task or mini quest to come back without loss. (Go seek, herd and shear the Wooly Llamas of Life or something to make more thread, idk) It wouldn't be a mandatory thing, if you just didn't care and want to get right back into the thick of things, you still could.

    - For the thrillseekers, have some hunting areas (with a warning sign) have riskier chunks xp loss, but also that much greater xp rewards

    -Have higher xp incentives for defending/raiding, conflict stuff etc. 

    -A timer on xp loss, multiple consecutive deaths don't count

    - Bring it to 1% loss at the higher levels through Titan and Demi when PvE

    - Other mmos/rpgs opt for equipment repairs over xp loss, make tailors and forgers work to more than just creation and upkeep for upkeep sake. Continual minimal gold sink over extended time.

    As an average, casual, manual player, losing potentially 2-3 hours spent in the 'Grind' in less than 20 seconds is disheartening. Some days, disheartening enough to move on to something else. That's potential time and money from me being spent elsewhere, other games, other competing non-IRE MUDs (rhymes with emu and phonics). Sure, it's a 'tradition, everyone does it, if I had to go through it so do you' kind of mentality. I prefer positive reinforcement over negative, and just because 'it's always been this way for 20 years' doesn't mean we can't change it up with the times.








    I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots.
    Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
  • AnitaAnita Member Posts: 559 Mythical
    edited June 29
    While I like your ideas, and I know some areas of the game need to be looked at - I'm pretty sure that XP loss has already been reduced in the past. It doesn't need to be reduced any further.

    You don't have to use vitae - it's an option. Much like doing anything in the game. Because it's a game. Yeah, losing XP sucks, but with the amount of aetherhunts and Astral hunts that happen  lately, losing XP is easy to gain back. That's without adding in golden tonics, cookies, achievements etc, etc. Hell, even "normal" hunting, it's easy to get back.

    Edit: edited this edit because I can't have thoughts :)
    Post edited by Anita on
    Silver crystals form in the ethereal haze of the storm glass amulet, twisting and writhing like
    trapped smoke, until distinct words that only you can read solidify in the cup of the chalice, "I
    watch you well, My child. You bring change where you walk, and all change is good."

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,736 Transcendent
    I loathe durability mechanics.  And at that point you are switching upkeep from one that you can do alone (hunting or influencing) to something that you have to actually go out and find a tailor or forger or you're going without your gear?  How is that more fun?
    image
  • OrventaOrventa Member Posts: 576 Mythical
    Xenthos said:
    I loathe durability mechanics.  And at that point you are switching upkeep from one that you can do alone (hunting or influencing) to something that you have to actually go out and find a tailor or forger or you're going without your gear?  How is that more fun?
    Wouldn't be, but I threw that in there for people who would expect 'well if we take out this thing, how can we replace it to have the same meaning/value' if at all


    I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots.
    Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited June 29
    Anita said:
    While I like your ideas, and I know some areas of the game need to be looked at - I'm pretty sure that XP loss has already been reduced in the past. It doesn't need to be reduced any further.

    You don't have to use vitae - it's an option. Much like doing anything in the game. Because it's a game. Yeah, losing XP sucks, but with the amount of aetherhunts and Astral hunts that happen  lately, losing XP is easy to gain back. That's without adding in golden tonics, cookies, achievements etc, etc. Hell, even "normal" hunting, it's easy to get back.

    Edit: As a personal thought, if you're in a video game and die, you get reset to your last checkpoint (some games even put your back to the beginning!) losing all progress if you haven't saved - and sometimes there's no option to save unless you get through to the end. Look at it that way, GRINDING FOR A FEW HOURS you lose, you have to do it again. Like a...game!

    Out of curiosity, what video games do you play? [emphasis mine]

    EDIT: More to the point, how old are they? That kind of really insane punishment for failure is an outmoded game model not seen in anything but say... roguelikes where it's a core part of the essential concept of the roguelike with specific intent. It's just not a part of modern games - even toning down a hyperbolic few hours of grinding to say... one hour of non-optimized grinding. I think it's safe to say that games in general have moved on from this kind of thing, even games that are centered around punishing mistakes and limiting the player's ability to save like the darksouls series. You're looking at needing to repeat at most 30-ish minutes of what amounts to combat puzzling, a far cry from monotonous grinding for much longer.

    I don't really have a strong opinion on this in the sense of putting grinding and xp at the top of my personal list of issues, but in part that's because I... don't grind anymore period so it's academic personally. That said, it's a dumb thing. It doesn't really serve in making players more cautious in how they bash most of the time as deaths quickly become functions of bad luck basically, and that's safeguarded against by grinding less efficiently which... is also subjecting the grinder to extra hours of grinding - potentially many many more than actual loss would net. Ho hum.

    Grinding is necessary to some degree, to generate friction in the gold 'economy' and give levels some meaning. Punishing people for dying by grinding with more grinding that has the potential to generate more grinding by the same means isn't necessary, or even helpful. 
  • AnitaAnita Member Posts: 559 Mythical
    edited June 29
    Nevermind :)
    Silver crystals form in the ethereal haze of the storm glass amulet, twisting and writhing like
    trapped smoke, until distinct words that only you can read solidify in the cup of the chalice, "I
    watch you well, My child. You bring change where you walk, and all change is good."

  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    Death doesnt really hurt that much. You can bash back a death pretty quick and you can build up a large essence pool so that you can die a ton and not really notice it.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Veyils said:
    Death doesnt really hurt that much. You can bash back a death pretty quick and you can build up a large essence pool so that you can die a ton and not really notice it.
    Then it's not doing its job in keeping people cautious etc. and needs to be re-examined on that basis. 

    The ostensible point of having a negative consequence to dying in PvE is to force you to change your behavior or risk extra time grinding. That equation only makes sense if "extra time grinding" is supposed to be a bad thing, or it wouldn't be a negative consequence. Practically how can a midbie change their behavior to avoid that risk? Chiefly risk modification in the form of what boils down to slower grinding, either a new less risky location or the same but more slowly. In other words, extra time grinding - the same bad punishment. 

    Sure, the top tier grinder removes this risk and therefore doesn't interact with that system at all. If we therefore balance at the top, xp loss on grinding has no effect at all. So, why do it? XP loss on grinding just makes no sense no matter how its sliced. Don't replace it, just remove it. If people then bash up to demigod too quickly, as plenty of people in this thread put it, the xp loss wasn't really meaningfully slowing those people anyways, so that's already a problem and won't change based on removing xp loss. That would have to be tackled separately. 

    In short, xp loss on PvE doesn't achieve a useful goal* or serve a useful purpose in the game. Depending on who you talk to, it's frustrating and painful or it means and adds nothing. So... no matter who you talk to it's either painful or pointless. I think it would at least do no harm to remove it, and would at best ease the frustrations of non-optimized grinders.



    *I don't count pushing people towards time optimized bashing as a useful goal. It's a risk management question between risk (and the overall expected statistical outcome of that risk) of what everyone seems to agree is a boring activity and guaranteed extension of that same boring activity. The overall outcome is extending that boring activity for some folks (risk prone) and not for others for no benefit. Remove the loss. If things move too fast, slow them down directly instead of obliquely and frustratingly. 
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    I think essence loss is fine as it is.

    If its too high you discourage combat too much if its too low its not important.

    The pray timer is maybe a bit too quick for combat events. Often you can die and be back into the fight before the fights over. Maybe an extending pray time based on number of deaths. Like first timer is 60. Second is 90 etc etc.

    Although its a really minor issue either way.


  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,639 Transcendent
    Do you mean the phoenix/reincarnate timer? pray for salvation is hella long compared to those two.

    image
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    Ah sorry yea phoenix.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    PvP xp loss is its own entirely different thing that deserves more nuanced treatment. PvE loss, death to npcs in non-enemy territory, should just flat vanish. 
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,614 Transcendent
    What? No way. If anything, it should be the other way around. You can't really gain exp from PvP so the losses should be minimal too. You can gain exp from PvE so there should be some loss to reflect that.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited June 30
    Why? The point of PvP xp loss is to discourage excessive PvP/raiding. The point of PvE xp loss is.... uh.... um... You basically MUST do PvE one way or another, no matter what the penalties and risks are to access most if not all of the mechanical parts of the game. 
  • KerithKerith Member Posts: 266 Gifted
    Ejderha said:
    I don't think higher PvP XP cost across the board reduces raiding - but it might reduce defending against raids, which leads to immense player fatigue. Reduce/eliminate PvP XP penalties in org territory, increase them substantially in enemy territory. 

    Definitely agree with this part.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    The way PvP (raiding) xp costs are currently structured is intended specifically and explicitly to curb excessive Inagin style dive-bomb, never leave raids. I have opinions on how this could better be managed, but it's a whole lot more complicated than PvE xp loss which is very simple. 
«1
This discussion has been closed.