WonderBrazier Aug 2017 promo

SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 828 Fabled
This does seem like one of the more 'must have' wonder items.  

I'd like to see the tracking ability removed and replaced (yes it know it is a very limited version). I'd like to see it saved for a future wonderboots item. Wonderboots could have a couple/few limited tracking abilities, the sprint ability, and function as the long requested catacombs substitute.


Steingrim.
You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
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Comments

  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    Very concerned about the 'Purify' power that removes terrain from a room and keeps it from being terrained.

    -How long is it kept from being terrained?
    -Can we impose both a power cost and a cooldown?
    -Why does this game hate melders so much?
    -Can it break melded terrain?

    image
  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 347 Creator
    edited August 1
    Maligorn said:
    Very concerned about the 'Purify' power that removes terrain from a room and keeps it from being terrained.

    -How long is it kept from being terrained?
    -Can we impose both a power cost and a cooldown?
    -Why does this game hate melders so much?
    -Can it break melded terrain?
    - Until day change.
    - Sure, why not.
    - Yes, this will likely be changed.

    Steingrim said:
    This does seem like one of the more 'must have' wonder items.  

    I'd like to see the tracking ability removed and replaced (yes it know it is a very limited version). I'd like to see it saved for a future wonderboots item. Wonderboots could have a couple/few limited tracking abilities, the sprint ability, and function as the long requested catacombs substitute.


    Steingrim.
    Feel free to submit a wonderboots concept to artifacts@lusternia.com - As it is, we have zero plans for them and are unlikely to gut an existing wonderitem for something that isn't even a twinkle in our eye.

    EDIT: Scrubbed to be less sarcastic. I apparently should not be dealing with forums right now, so I'm going to forget they exist.
    Forum Avatar drawn by our lovely Isune.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    Ianir said:
    Maligorn said:
    Very concerned about the 'Purify' power that removes terrain from a room and keeps it from being terrained.

    -How long is it kept from being terrained?
    -Can we impose both a power cost and a cooldown?
    -Why does this game hate melders so much?
    -Can it break melded terrain?
    - Until day change.
    - Yes, but I expected a huge public outcry on this one and am treating it as a bit of a scapegoat that I fully intended to change because if I can give everybody one thing to complain about and change it, people will be happy rather than finding every possible thing that can possibly be considered 'wrong' in their opinion to the point where I have to rubberstamp "talk to your envoys" for a week straight. Again.
    Okay - I'm very sorry for criticizing your product. Please forgive me for bringing up a list of grievances, I'll never do it again. My transgression is great; I will go on a soul-searching journey for daring to speak out against an irritating mechanic that I don't know why is a thing.

    image
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 944 Fabled
    I'm a bit salty that the level 15 power (When offering, acts as a level 40 miniaturised figurine bonus-wise.) is in the brazier only (and not in the figurine rune).

    Is the Beacon power a permanent thing until it is reset or does it reset after you return to the location?

  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 828 Fabled
    How about people test things before calling for a nerf, unless this is a typo is it really a problem?


      WONDERBRAZIER PURIFY - 1/day
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    Steingrim said:
    How about people test things before calling for a nerf, unless this is a typo is it really a problem?


      WONDERBRAZIER PURIFY - 1/day
    I can't throw money at the game and get a wonder item just because, Steingrim. The announce post does not say 1/day. The help file isn't up yet.

    image
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Tbh even one a day in certain rooms in certain areas could be a big difference
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 828 Fabled
    Falaeron said:
    Tbh even one a day in certain rooms in certain areas could be a big difference
    It may be. So let's test it.
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Steingrim said:
    Falaeron said:
    Tbh even one a day in certain rooms in certain areas could be a big difference
    It may be. So let's test it.
    Not trying to sound rude or anything, but once you have enough experience pking you don't need to test certain things to know how broken they might be.
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 828 Fabled
    Maligorn said:
    Steingrim said:
    How about people test things before calling for a nerf, unless this is a typo is it really a problem?


      WONDERBRAZIER PURIFY - 1/day
    I can't throw money at the game and get a wonder item just because, Steingrim. The announce post does not say 1/day. The help file isn't up yet.

    I get that, which is why I suggested we test it.
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    edited August 1
    I mean, the artifact is so flexible that you can ensure your melder has a very easy time maintaining their meld while an enemy melder trying to break in has no options but to take an extremely inconvenient and dangerous route to get to the place they're trying to go. And then there's multiple wonder braziers.

    I just wish there were like, a fugue artifact for use against bards, or an octave tacet artifact or something. Or maybe bring in an old Magnetize effect in an artifact for monks and warriors. Then maybe there'd be a tangible uproar. Or at least it'd feel equal.

    image
  • KagatoKagato Carmichael, CAMember Posts: 1,029 Fabled
    edited August 1
    Keep in mind that purifying a room will apparently stop ANYONE from melding there - so it's not like you will have a group of people going through purifying then laying their own meld on top of it (unless a conflict happens to occur at the turn of a day and they get all the rooms purified before midnight ticks over)

    Yes it will hurt defenders, but the attackers will be equally out of luck.

    This is purely presumption without being able to see a help file or the item itself, but guessing the powers are likely restricted like so...


    1. Tinderbox - No restriction
    2. 2/10 Fire and Divinus Buff - Not applicable since it is always on
    3. Illusions sparkles - Probably restricted to a set number of times per day, similar to the dingbat artifact
    4. Illusion detection improvement - guessing this is always active
    5. The Brazier can hold esteem and be offered (instantly returns)
    6. Glamours colour burst - WEAVE COLOURBURST - No idea, probably has a power cost?
    7. Illusions blur - WEAVE BLUR - Not familiar with this skill, so not going to try to guess.
    8. 2/10 Fire and Divinus Resistance - Not applicable
    9. Farallies - alerts you where all your allies are. - Like farscout
    for allies only (limited to planar skill). - No limitation
    10. Activate to place a temporary chandelier effect in the room - probably once per day or month
    11. Track - Seek an object or denizen within an area. Only shows
    direction. - Guessing maybe 5-10 times a day, if there is a limitation.
    12. Purify - Clear terrain from a room and disallow it from being
    terrained for a short time. - already know this is 1/day
    13. Firework - WEAVE FIREWORKS - Might not be limited, but if it is, it would be 10/day like the dingbat arti.
    14. Ignite - Ignite a room - probably 1/day
    15. When offering, acts as a level 40 miniaturised figurine bonus-wise.
    16. Soulspark - Adds a small crit chance to non-village influencing. - Not applicable, always on.
    17. Beacon - Create a beacon anywhere on a known plane and return to it - needs to be set monthly?
    18. Glamours illusory self - 10 p - WEAVE ILLUSORYSELF - Probably no limit due to the high power cost.
    19. Boil - Activate once per weave to cure yourself of drunkenness and a large amount of insanity out of combat. Does not work during ascension. (already says once per weave)
    20. Soulfire - Consume 500 esteem on the wonderitem, envelop individual in a soulfire as their Divine Spark ignites outward. They gain access to the SOULFIRE command for a limited time, and gain a pool of 5000 points to use. all points are used or the time expires, it ends and all unused points are converted to xp/essence for the user:
    o CONSUME <tar> (50 points) - High damage, fire/divinus attack.
    o DIVINEFIRE (1000 points) - Gives mortal version of divinefire for 30
    seconds.
    o AURA (500 points to activate, 100/min upkeep) - Grants 2/10 to most
    universal buffs/resists, constant upkeep.
    o AMPLIFY (50/attack) - Increases strength of influence attacks (not
    village).
    o RELINQUISH (0 points) - Ends the soulfire form early.

     Guessing Soulfire is able to be activated once per day or weave, otherwise the value of esteem will go up quite dramatically, depending on how powerful the abilities end up being, whether they can be used in PvP and how much experience the unused points will give.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    Kagato said:
    Keep in mind that purifying a room will apparently stop ANYONE from melding there - so it's not like you will have a group of people going through purifying then laying their own meld on top of it (unless a conflict happens to occur at the turn of a day and they get all the rooms purified before midnight ticks over)
    Right - that's why you use it cleverly. You purify a room that your friendly melder doesn't need, but will stonewall an enemy melder's progression entirely. But whatever, apparently I need to test it.

    image
  • KagatoKagato Carmichael, CAMember Posts: 1,029 Fabled
    edited August 1
    The stone wall would affect the 'friendly' side as well though, since they would not be able to encroach upon the 'enemy' side unless there was an alternative entry point.  Just saying that it could be a lot worse than it is.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 22 Novice
    Not a melder. But yeah, no need to test this to know it's gonna screw things up for a lot of people no matter if defender or attacker. Especially when 'allies' accidentally pop it off in very much the wrong places. Which, and I can promise you, WILL happen.

    As a nonmelder though, woohoo, drop that melder, make it so they cannot meld that room again, move on with my day without worrying about that in the future, unless the duration is dropped to like...60s or so, to keep people rapidly shifting melds around with forcemelds during the course of a fight or something. 5 min is probably what'd be looked at? I dunno...
  • TremulaTremula the Fate's choice for Drocilla Member Posts: 2,387 Transcendent
    I misread this after a long day and thought we were getting a VERY different item...
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    K, well, unwanted and unvalued opinions of mine aside, I think changing the "no-terraining" to expire after 60 seconds would be much, much more appropriate, as well as following trueground rules. But whatever.

    image
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,395 Transcendent
    edited August 1
    Technically, the concept of blocking terraining is in itself not neccesarily a bad thing - it's not even new. The entire point of melds revolves around this concept.

    However, implementing it outside of the status quo should probably have gotten some envoy feedback (I'm not sure if it had any, in this case). Existing block-terrain concepts and execution in the game comes with very specific rules that have nothing to do with a time limit, nor a use limit:

    1) To be able to block someone from terraining a room, you need to have melded said room.
    2) If the other someone is a melder himself, you need to have melded at least two other rooms surrounding said room, and those two other rooms cannot be adjacent to one another.

    These two iron-clad restrictions then feed into a much wider dynamic of area control, room-exit layout and meld building strategies that form the basis of existing meld-based combat meta.

    Introducing something that ignores, or changes the dynamics of, those two restrictions is in itself a huge balance change. The implementation, therefore needs to take into consideration what impact it will have on those basic rules, and therefore, the subsequent effect on the larger meld-based meta. This will inform and define the role of the ability being created. In this case, we are effectively giving part of a melder's role (and strategic advantage) to artifact holders.

    Being clear on what role this new ability should play (empowered trueground for non-melders? or anti-meld ability? or meld-advantage for existing melders?) will make it easier to see how it should be implemented, and the restrictions that must come with it, to keep the status quo of meld balance. This is, of course, assuming that we want to keep the status quo of how melds are created and used in combat.

    Finally, you'll need to look at the effect on the combat meta. What needs to be compensated, if any, to add this new dimension to combat? Those restrictions/rules/compensations will have to be targeted, and have meaning more than just being a balancing cost. Some abilities can be added as an artifact, and with a sufficient cost, and that's it. This isn't one of them, because this doesn't exist or sit within any pre-existing framework of melding or terraining. It's a game-changer (literally, in this sense - since we're a game. Geddit?). So what kind of restrictions can be considered?

    Because the original restrictions of pre-existing mechanics have nothing to do with time limits or use limits, adding things like time limits or use limits will only be able to do one of two things: 1) fail to address the balance concerns that arise from the new ability's existence, or 2) completely neuter the new ability. This is why last-until day change restriction is itself (edit:) not a weird implementation. I'm not sure what exactly it's supposed to do.

    For example, if you wanted the new ability to give non-melders a way to interact with (and combat/challenge) an opponent melder's strategic advantage (ie, create a non-melder's "meld" dynamic), then the last-until day change restriction becomes too heavy - because they won't be able to do this role effectively. Sufficient compensation on other areas need to be implemented instead (for example, make it follow the two rules of terrain blocking listed above). On the other hand, if you only wanted the new ability to be an empowered trueground, allowing non-melders to break a meld, then the day change restriction is the wrong restriction: there's simply no need for it - instead, the ability itself should just be made to respect the existing rules for breaking melds, and then there'll be no need for the effect to block further terraining, if the role is simply to allow non-melders to break melds. Etc.

    This has the potential to be a cool addition to the game. It just doesn't seem to be clear, at the moment, what it's supposed to actually be.

  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    Even if this was an empowered trueground - and it's not - I'd much, much rather it be in an envoy report, given its due argument. No, I highly doubt this thing was passed by envoys - it seems like they want to release it first, THEN hear what envoys have to say about it.

    Non-melders get to break a meld? It's a very arguable point. It needs to be stuck in a report - a potential solution would be something like

    Solution 1: Trueground can now break melds at a breakpoint, and costs 3p to do so. Since it's normally 2p and forcetrueground (presumably) should cost 3p.

    But they've denied even that - it's now artifact gated. So I'd be very opposed to a change to the actual Trueground skill if Purify remained as it is.

    It's /always/ like this. Artifacts are just released without any consideration - it just happens over and over again. It's so embittering. Guess it doesn't really matter to them, though.

    I really, really don't care if the ability is neutered - it should be, because it shouldn't exist. Put up a trueground report, general envoys, if you want this.

    image
  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,515 Transcendent
    Non-melders get to break a single room, once an IG day. How entirely ground-breaking, if I may be permitted a pun.


    I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

    2017/04/23 00:29:14 - Nefara honoured Shaddus for: For his dedication to the Earthen Lords and Lady, 
    and willingness to assist our young Pupils. Despite his choosing to not progress himself further, he 
    still works for the Geomancers, and the Engine, in any way he is capable. Also comes with a healthy 
    dose of rebellion, to ensure us of the Council can not be too relaxed.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    Shaddus said:
    Non-melders get to break a single room, once an IG day. How entirely ground-breaking, if I may be permitted a pun.


    I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

    I'll grant that I'm dramatic by default! But I've already said all that needs to be said here.

    image
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 746 Mythical
    1/day, effect lasting for 60s is ok, even if it can break a room. IMO.

    But Mali isn't wrong.  There's been a lot of anti-meld lately.  I'm happy if we're moving away from passives for melders and into actives, but for the moment we're just nerfing the meld and giving nothing in return.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 828 Fabled
    edited August 1
    Kagato said:
    3. Illusions sparkles - Probably restricted to a set number of times per day, similar to the dingbat artifact
    4. Illusion detection improvement - guessing this is always active
    5. The Brazier can hold esteem and be offered (instantly returns)
    6. Glamours colour burst - WEAVE COLOURBURST - No idea, probably has a power cost?
    7. Illusions blur - WEAVE BLUR - Not familiar with this skill, so not going to try to guess.
    8. 2/10 Fire and Divinus Resistance - Not applicable
    9. Farallies - alerts you where all your allies are. - Like farscout
    for allies only (limited to planar skill). - No limitation
    10. Activate to place a temporary chandelier effect in the room - probably once per day or month
    11. Track - Seek an object or denizen within an area. Only shows
    direction. - Guessing maybe 5-10 times a day, if there is a limitation.
    12. Purify - Clear terrain from a room and disallow it from being
    terrained for a short time. - already know this is 1/day
    13. Firework - WEAVE FIREWORKS - Might not be limited, but if it is, it would be 10/day like the dingbat arti.
    14. Ignite - Ignite a room - probably 1/day
    15. When offering, acts as a level 40 miniaturised figurine bonus-wise.
    16. Soulspark - Adds a small crit chance to non-village influencing. - Not applicable, always on.
    17. Beacon - Create a beacon anywhere on a known plane and return to it - needs to be set monthly?
    18. Glamours illusory self - 10 p - WEAVE ILLUSORYSELF - Probably no limit due to the high power cost.
    19. Boil - Activate once per weave to cure yourself of drunkenness and a large amount of insanity out of combat. Does not work during ascension. (already says once per weave)
    20. Soulfire - Consume 500 esteem on the wonderitem, envelop individual in a soulfire as their Divine Spark ignites outward. They gain access to the SOULFIRE command for a limited time, and gain a pool of 5000 points to use. all points are used or the time expires, it ends and all unused points are converted to xp/essence for the user:
    o CONSUME <tar> (50 points) - High damage, fire/divinus attack.
    o DIVINEFIRE (1000 points) - Gives mortal version of divinefire for 30
    seconds.
    o AURA (500 points to activate, 100/min upkeep) - Grants 2/10 to most
    universal buffs/resists, constant upkeep.
    o AMPLIFY (50/attack) - Increases strength of influence attacks (not
    village).
    o RELINQUISH (0 points) - Ends the soulfire form early.

     Guessing Soulfire is able to be activated once per day or weave, otherwise the value of esteem will go up quite dramatically, depending on how powerful the abilities end up being, whether they can be used in PvP and how much experience the unused points will give.
    Please double check things. There isn't' a x times per day on the sparkletron for sparkles. 

    4. Not sure it needs a power cost as the aff given is random. Also, wonderbrazier doesn't seem to have any way to strip blindness so there's that.

    10. From the syntax and seems implemented: WONDERBRAZIER ACTIVATE DREAMGLIMPSE - 1/day

    11. Doesn't seem to be a limit xday and given the limitations in place (not being able to unite) not sure any are needed.

    14. Can't seem to get this to work.

    18. Your suspicions appear to be correct. To those not-familiar with illusions/glamours they mostly, including this skill has a timer. 

    There is some limit but I don't know how often yet. Don't know that soullfire can only be activated once per weave and I don't agree that esteem going up is automatically a reason to slap a limit on it. The cost on soulfire can be adjusted if there's a problem. For all we know the admin had looked at esteem and thought it was too cheap (remember the days of needing it constantly for raiding is behind us). I would expect a spike as people stock up.

    I would expect that much of the esteem used by the brazier is likely to be from offering.


    @Ianir there's a bit of difficulty in using the brazier that doesn't exist with the illusion skill. In that with the illusion's skill you can use the ILLUSIONS command to see the timers on illusions.
    Post edited by Steingrim on
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,268 Mythical
    Illusory self is pretty powerful. And although I've an envoy report on my back pocket to give it a little nerf that shouldn't effect this item too much. Most of the other illusory stuff is kinda ok but eh. Not something most will use outside of specific situations.

    Only little bit of feedback right now is the damage types are a bit org specific it would be more attractive to buy if it buffed all org damage types.

    Purify seems a bit odd. Haven't had a chance to test it but it seems like a hefty buff to defensive melds on paper.

    It's an ok item but it's not one I could see myself paying big money for right now. I'd be more tempted to buy it if the damage buffs works for my org.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,622 Transcendent
    There are at least some things in here that were run by Envoys before they were added, and I see a decided lack of some other things that were brought up to a negative reception.  Complaining that they "always" ignore input when they specifically did not do so seems a bit harsh.  Did they ask about every single power?  No.  Did they ignore player feedback entirely?  Also no.

    No need to be so harsh about this, they already dealt with one issue post-release (Overload) based on feedback and they will be much more likely to deal with any problem with Purity based on rational comments instead of emotional reactions.
    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    I know it's hard, but I think you can parse out the rational comments from the emotion.

    image
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,622 Transcendent
    I don't know a lot of human beings who, when someone comes at them with ferocity, are (especially immediately) capable of doing that level of fine parsing.  Emotion usually begets emotion.  I even include myself in this, too, btw.

    Just because they are administrators, they are no less human or subject to the various foibles of which we all too often succumb.
    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,594 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:
    I don't know a lot of human beings who, when someone comes at them with ferocity, are (especially immediately) capable of doing that level of fine parsing.  Emotion usually begets emotion.  I even include myself in this, too, btw.

    Just because they are administrators, they are no less human or subject to the various foibles of which we all too often succumb.
    I'll direct you to my first post. That doesn't seem especially hostile, right. Just a little miffed. I'm assuming you didn't see Ianir's full response before he scrubbed it either - yes, there's a sarcastic question in my first post, but it was meant to be at least a little tongue-in-cheek.

    So - seriously - I'm just reciprocating the inconsiderate attitude that was shown to me, that you probably didn't see. If you really want to look at the "constructive" criticism, it's there - Ciaran's post is also much better at getting across what I think would be tons better too.

    image
  • KaimanahiKaimanahi The One True Queen Member Posts: 630 Transcendent
    Preliminary constructive feedback:

    - Beacon should be changed either to, 1) not also transport your entourage and/or 2) be more limited, with regards to respecting monolith [it's not stopped, both ways] and the planar range shouldn't extend to aetherbubbles. I'd probably recommend it to be a copy of Demigod Anchor, unless you really want to break the fortress meta.
    - Track should cost bal if it's meant to be more limited, or otherwise just show you the full direction list to the item [It's balance-less, so you can spam it and autowalk already.]
    - Purify, I have to agree, imposes an unfair strain on melders. No ability should shut down the vast majority of a class' prime skillset without counter-play. A less invasive implementation might be to give personal immunity to meld passive effects for a limited time (60s?).

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