Mana - the useless vital

YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
(Warning, fairly ranty post incoming...)


Ok... Please, please slow down with these changes.

I've brought this up before, but healing pressures Health and Ego stats, which are already Guardians' weakest, and the health drops can be pretty borderline lethal sometimes. Hence Vitality, right? But that's a bit useless if every heal/farheal can kill you a la before you hit demigod. Which with these health drops, would put us back to pre-demi levels pretty much. Solution 3, assuming my class is supposed to be 'weak' at health, could drop me under 5k base health. That's silly and ridiculous when I already have a skill (well, more than one) that chunks me for the majority of my health, and would make lusternia about unplayable for any kind of pve too. Even a 1k drop, assuming solution 1 and 'average' rating, would hurt.

And then ego... Mostly that would hurt for influencing. Need a lot of buffs and I can already barely handle NPCs like Afmecia without dropping to 0 and sometimes I can't. But Healing does pressure ego too and, to me, it does not seem like an OP skillset. People still die well enough in pvp.

And then we come to mana... The useless vital... Keep it above 50% to avoid instakills, some skills require it to be full, but otherwise, it's just not meaningful. Health tanks for you and fuels skills. Ego tanks for you (in influence and debate battles), and also fuels skills, at costs high enough to matter. Mana has some token costs but just... doesn't do much. Even if you increased the costs, that would really just be a buff to mana instakills.

But the real 'mana' of Lusternia is power... That's what fuels any of the decent to really powerful abilities, leaving actual mana a bit out in the cold.

Please don't leave me with a class that has tons of a vital I can't use, and too weak to actually do much of anything in violent and nonviolent pve, as well as put Healing to use in pvp.
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Comments

  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    edited August 6
    Also I feel like this report is an exaggeration anyways. I succor all allies and even some enemies in pvp events. I don't really see 11k+ health unless something like a nexus song is active, or the rare warrior class.

    8.8k is rare but there. 9.3k~10.3k is common. 10.8k sometimes. >=11k, exceptionally rare.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,736 Transcendent
    Health : 15369/12420

    Woo rare warrior class?
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  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    Xenthos said:
    Health : 15369/12420

    Woo rare warrior class?
    I've never actually seen a 12k vital. Nice
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  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 763 Mythical
    Pretty much all high tier fighters are sitting at, at least, 11k health.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    edited August 6
    Ciaran said:
    Pretty much all high tier fighters are sitting at, at least, 11k health.

    That is not what I see on succor. Unless a lot of people are participating in pvp events that you don't think of as 'high tier fighters'.

    ...anyways, these changes won't hurt Xenthos levels of health. Only the already squishies that aren't deserving of 'above average'
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  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    edited August 6
    Just another thought... If the problem is people with a million vitals buffs... maybe caps need to come down, instead of bases. Then you won't be hurting those that are already hurting...

    As is these changes aren't really targeted at "high tier fighters" but nerf absolutely everyone, from the newbie fresh out of Newton to the fresh demi that can't fight in endgame areas without redlining, and everyone between.
    Post edited by Yehn on
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  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 400 Creator
    Alright, so, let's go over this point by point.

    Yehn said:
    I've brought this up before, but healing pressures Health and Ego stats, which are already Guardians' weakest, and the health drops can be pretty borderline lethal sometimes. Hence Vitality, right? But that's a bit useless if every heal/farheal can kill you a la before you hit demigod. 
    This sounds like a problem with the healing skill to me. Perhaps this should be changed. Perhaps bring that up to your envoys.

    Yehn said:
    Solution 3, assuming my class is supposed to be 'weak' at health, could drop me under 5k base health. 
    Solution 3 was a bit ridiculous, yes. I said as much when I set it on envoys. It has since been changed with an alternative.

    Yehn said:
     That's silly and ridiculous when I already have a skill (well, more than one) that chunks me for the majority of my health
    ... Sounds like a problem with the skill. The majority of the game aren't healers.

    Yehn said:
    and would make lusternia about unplayable for any kind of pve too. Even a 1k drop, assuming solution 1 and 'average' rating, would hurt.

    Solution 3 on PVE? Yeah, maybe. Solution 1, not so much. Yes, it would hurt a bit, but even you with 9800 health can survive being at 8800 unless you walk into a room with... 3 cave fishers? Which would kill you even at 9800.

    Yehn said:
    And then ego... Mostly that would hurt for influencing. Need a lot of buffs and I can already barely handle NPCs like Afmecia without dropping to 0 and sometimes I can't.
    There are a lot of factors that go into influencing - your buffs, your prestige, mob strength (and named mobs tend to have a higher one). Without any of this data, this is a bit of a non-point.

    Yehn said:
    People still die well enough in pvp.
    I'll come back to this one later.

    Yehn said:
    And then we come to mana... The useless vital... Keep it above 50% to avoid instakills, some skills require it to be full, but otherwise, it's just not meaningful. Health tanks for you and fuels skills. Ego tanks for you (in influence and debate battles), and also fuels skills, at costs high enough to matter. Mana has some token costs but just... doesn't do much. Even if you increased the costs, that would really just be a buff to mana instakills.
    Okay, sure, this is a problem. The resource is not being used well enough.  This should probably be fixed. Any ideas? Maybe mana classes should have various mana upkeep drains (guardians for their links to their summons/gems/fleshforms, mages to upkeep their meld)? Iunno, throwing an idea at the wall, feel free to offer ideas of you own.

    Yehn said:
    Also I feel like this report is an exaggeration anyways. I succor all allies and even some enemies in pvp events. I don't really see 11k+ health unless something like a nexus song is active, or the rare warrior class.
    Health : 10905/10905 (Bard)
    Health : 11800/11800 (Warrior)
    Health : 10800/10800 (Wiccan)
    Health : 12960/10800 (Mage)

    Those are just people I randomly pulled off of QW just this second. If you're missing these numbers and you're constantly succoring people, I'm really not sure what to tell you.

    As for this report being an 'exaggeration', the first time this was brought up was an envoy meeting on May 29. It has been discussed a few times since then, and has gone through a few iterations. Initially, we were going to leave the base alone and only change the percentage of the buff. This was argued against because it would devalue the artifact, and was only changed to modifying the base literally today. About two or three revisions of the report ago, since it is a bit of a living proposal right now.

    Now, let's go back to your earlier point.

    Yehn
     said:
    People still die well enough in pvp.

    Sure. Except damage isn't really viable in any way short of a healer killing themselves or 10 people whacking on you consistently (and even then, there's consistent complaints that this isn't really working from both sides.) A lot of this is due to the screwy resist stacking, and this is on the table to be looked at as well.

    But a lot of why this report exists is another matter that was on the table during the May and June meetings, and a constant point of discussion for the last 2-3 months with envoys: Dehomogenisation of classes.

    The overhaul has put everything into a state where every class feels the same. The plan right now is to go over every archetype and give it a good combover, let us put it into a good part of combat where it thrives. This is, as of this month, officially in progress starting with bards. However, the path we want to go with bards (emphasising octaves and lowering offensive AoE) is limited by several factors, including the aforementioned health and resist issues.

    I was going to announce this officially when the first set of approvals went in, but because I can't ignore forum ranting, I figure I should provide some context.

    There's a lot of factors that go into a decision, and adjusting the entire state of a game isn't something I take lightly. There's a reason why I've provided a route for commentary to all envoys, who are more in tune with the game's combat than I am, before actually coding it. And just because things exist in solutions doesn't mean solutions can't be changed or new ones can't be provided. And just because I throw up a report doesn't mean it's going to happen.

    If it does happen, and a class or skillset is severely affected by it, it will be looked at. It's all on the block to be looked at anyway. But if any major changes need to happen, now is the time while we're still looking at everything and planning it out. There is a basic plan set in place for every class to be looked at to give them a solid mechanical theme and ensure they still function over the last seven years of overhaul and however many years of changes before that, and we need to keep those in mind now, not after it's all in. We don't need to repeat the mistakes that have been made during the overhaul and just ignore them while making changes.

    I've spent way too long typing this. That's my thoughts on the matter. Leaving it there.
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  • TridemonTridemon Member Posts: 608 Fabled
    For the use of mana... there are a few skills that constantly drain mana while in use- metawake and charismaticaura come to mind- maybe add some more things like that? Useful little things... like maybe a sanityshield skill for use on astral when it's not ascension, lowers sanity loss like the circlet of lucidity, but at 1/3 the effectiveness. Or something for melders that will increase EQ loss for someone trying to break their meld by a fraction, at the cost of ongoing mana drain. Mana's supposed to be mental power, right?
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    This sounds like a problem with the healing skill to me. Perhaps this should be changed. Perhaps bring that up to your envoys.
    ... Sounds like a problem with the skill. The majority of the game aren't healers.

    These are things I've pointed out before. While the overhaul made healing a lot better, and the whole concept of an empathic healer is really neat, it just doesn't mesh well with the "mage that has tons of mana" type (which it seems someone had a vision of).

    But back to the root cause -- a global vitals change affects anyone and everyone. Stuff like this shouldn't be written off if the change is centered around a minority to begin with -- combatants with 10/10 or 13/13 buffs, or somewhere very high there...

    Solution 3 on PVE? Yeah, maybe. Solution 1, not so much. Yes, it would hurt a bit, but even you with 9800 health can survive being at 8800 unless you walk into a room with... 3 cave fishers? Which would kill you even at 9800.

    I'm at 9.8k now because I bought a fitness rune when I returned (and a rune of absorption, and finally trained a beast to bodyguard). It did make things a lot easier. Whereas before was "don't miss a beat or lag even slightly or you're dead".

    I also have 9.3k when an h/m/e buff isn't available, so that would be 8.3k with an 'average' rating under solution 1. (Of course I try to keep that buff but the nature of conflict quests means sometimes someone stops that from happening.)

    Now, what about a fresh demi with 6k health and other vitals, maybe 7k buffed? Do they really need to be nerfed?

    My memory of that unpleasantness is still fresh enough and I don't particularly want to return to that point, even if I could still pull it off thanks to arties, and my ego still is in the low enough range that I would lose access to a lot of areas with a vitals nerf...

    There are a lot of factors that go into influencing - your buffs, your prestige, mob strength (and named mobs tend to have a higher one). Without any of this data, this is a bit of a non-point.

    Not a non-point: End point is still the same... Nerf means losing access to mobs, using the buffs and so on that I have access to.

    If you go with, for example, the "I like swords" archetype for warriors and give them a below average ego rating, that would really make influencing hell on them, particularly for leveling or fresh demi...

    OTOH, solution 3 would make it very much easy mode on some... Until new mobs are added that require that strength, anyways.


    Okay, sure, this is a problem. The resource is not being used well enough.  This should probably be fixed. Any ideas? Maybe mana classes should have various mana upkeep drains (guardians for their links to their summons/gems/fleshforms, mages to upkeep their meld)? Iunno, throwing an idea at the wall, feel free to offer ideas of you own.

    I would normally suggest trading mana for power (not the vital/resource)... like if you want to do something stronger than usual, it has a mana cost proportional to the strength of the ability.

    But, power (the vital/resource) already covers this... If I run into a group of really tough mobs or something, I spend power to deal with it.

    Just adding a mana tax, or a larger one, to existing abilities... doesn't really add much, but if you want people to be more careful of mana instants then that would do it. And... could actually be a further nerf to pve depending, since sipping mana means you can't sip health...


    Those are just people I randomly pulled off of QW just this second. If you're missing these numbers and you're constantly succoring people, I'm really not sure what to tell you.


    I don't think that was very random... I think you pulled off people with the highest vitals...

    What do the complete results look like?

    This was argued against because it would devalue the artifact, and was only changed to modifying the base literally today. 

    I can understand wanted to protect the value of the artifact... but please, please be careful about what you're putting on that altar.

    Dehomogenisation of classes.
    -snip-

    Ok this is fine. It's also an area of knowledge that isn't my strength. I can understand that being a goal. But if base vitals can be class specific, why can't caps be? So warriors can have lots, but other types will cap out sooner...

    Or why not increase pvp damage output of basic attacks (especially since the new solution 3 would inflate health even more...)? Or tons of other things that maybe already came up for discussion.

    If the problem is top tier combatants, it just seems like there has to be a more focused solution that would work...

    There is a basic plan set in place for every class to be looked at to give them a solid mechanical theme and ensure they still function over the last seven years of overhaul and however many years of changes before that, and we need to keep those in mind now, not after it's all in.

    That's understandable. While not everything about my class is very consistent my impression of it isn't to say it's brokenly unusable. 

    But changes like this, as you say, you're changing the entire state of the game... The consequences will reach far beyond high tier combatants, and pvp combat generally. Sol1 will really make some things miserable on some classes for leveling/basic demi, new Sol3 will make it silly easy on some...

    I've spent way too long typing this. That's my thoughts on the matter. Leaving it there.

    I do appreciate the time you took to respond and give your thoughts. Thank you.









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  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    Tridemon said:
    For the use of mana... there are a few skills that constantly drain mana while in use- metawake and charismaticaura come to mind- maybe add some more things like that? Useful little things... like maybe a sanityshield skill for use on astral when it's not ascension, lowers sanity loss like the circlet of lucidity, but at 1/3 the effectiveness. Or something for melders that will increase EQ loss for someone trying to break their meld by a fraction, at the cost of ongoing mana drain. Mana's supposed to be mental power, right?
    Yes, added utility might be the most practical thing...
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,639 Transcendent
    edited August 6
    EDIT: I'm really ambivalent about this. Kinda opting to not speak too much about it.
    Post edited by Maligorn on

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  • AeldraAeldra Member Posts: 948 Mythical
    I've been actually coming to this independently after thinking about this. @Ianir, the problem is not only is mana an underused stat, it's also that the few mana kills around, don't give a damn about how much mana ( or reduced mana drain ) you have. Like I've never seen any point where it mattered whether you have 8k mana or 12.3k mana. Mana targetting attack still drain % based, making it actually pointless to have a high mana pool, wheras a high health pool or ego pool benefit you in combat and out.

    That being said, I think mana lacks a meaning outside of PK as well that would actually make mana interesting to people. What's the point of being a mage with a high mana pool? you'll never notice you're benefitting from it anyway. It's just not playing in the same league as health ( bashing ) and ego ( influence/debate ). Solutions to this that are not a huge deal of work? not sure there are.
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  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    Mana drains drain a base + a % aeldra. There is a big difference between mana or ego killing something with 6k 8k or 12k mana. Having a larger mana pool really makes your more resistant to mana kills.

    Theres a lot of points raised here Ianir has covered but the long to short of it is classes had vastly different vitals, resistances and tankynes pre overhaul. Overhaul broke this and basically gave all classess the ability to get pretty much the same vitals, resistances and roughly the same armour.

    This will be a very good fix to make classes more distinct.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,639 Transcendent
    edited August 6
    EDIT 2 (basically): I never really thought of mana as a useless vital until it was brought up in this context. I will say that if you guys impose mana drains to upkeep defences or somesuch...even if they are powerful, mana drains will have to be cut down to size. In other words, it's a good thing that mana isn't used right now, else we'd be steamrolled over by the manakill meta even more than what is currently happening.

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  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 671 Mythical
    edited August 6
    Make a Discipline skill based on Zinx from Paragon. You toggle it on, and damage to your health and ego is split 50/50 between the stat it was targetting and mana.

    Protip: You'll be wasting keystrokes telling me this is a bad idea. I don't care. Brainstorming, fam. Just post a better idea instead.

    Protip2: Paragon is awesome. Utterly awesome. Even Kallari is now a serious contender, and I saw Iggy facerolling a few matches back, until I levelled up Bang Bang! and started farming the slippery sonofabitch. At max CP with Tainted Magic, and three maxed damage cards I can oneshot him. It's a beautiful thing. Other MOBAs are available.
  • AeldraAeldra Member Posts: 948 Mythical
    Veyils said:
    Mana drains drain a base + a % aeldra. There is a big difference between mana or ego killing something with 6k 8k or 12k mana. Having a larger mana pool really makes your more resistant to mana kills.

    Theres a lot of points raised here Ianir has covered but the long to short of it is classes had vastly different vitals, resistances and tankynes pre overhaul. Overhaul broke this and basically gave all classess the ability to get pretty much the same vitals, resistances and roughly the same armour.

    This will be a very good fix to make classes more distinct.
    Yes, in theory there's a "flat" percent, but the impact is so minimal that you can't tell it, in my personal opinion. I have vivid memory fighting as a monk when I didn't have 12.3k and I didn't die any more or less to mana drains then I do when am aquachem and have 12.3k mana. Sure, -on paper- there's a minimal difference, but with how the mana kills work, it doesn't really make a difference. And yes, I remember when I was wicca, for succumb it played a slight role, but ... nowhere near the impact a health  (or an ego ) has on terms of survivability. I will agree that this may be an issue with the specific skills involved in this and in the end, it's just my opinion and observations.
    Avatar / Picture done by Xeii. Wheeeeee 
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 763 Mythical
    Just to quickly chime in here:

    I agree with the notion that health is -much- more important than mana or ego.

    This report would be a buff to warriors, which I think is fair (making them the more tanky class).  One of the big sticking points is that people hate to have things taken away.  Players are used to having lots of health, and bashing certain areas, and they're going to be mad when that changes.

    I don't think it really means that this report is a bad idea.  I personally like it, as long as we're acknowledging that HP is more important than MP/EP, and are fully aware that we're nerfing some classes while buffing others.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    edited August 6
    Ciaran said:
    I agree with the notion that health is -much- more important than mana or ego.
    Ego is still leagues ahead of mana. Please don't try to put ego and mana in the same boat -- ego has an entire nonviolent combat system with both pvp and pve aspects designed around it, powers skills, and for one skillset can even act as a physical damage shield.

    Anyways, I'm really not OK with losing access to bashing and influencing areas. I can't just go and level up a bit more to get those back. And from a less personal standpoint, nerfing everyone but warriors (and bards for ego? or whoever would get the top ego stat)... is that really going to help retain players to the point where they get to demi? As is, leveling up I found I could not take many areas unless I was a fair bit above the recommend level in that help file people pass around (one of the reasons I turned to influencing...). And this report would nerf BOTH those things for most classes, which is just going to make it harder on those coming after.

    All hail the group astral/aether bashes, I guess...
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  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    edited August 6
    Aeldra said:
    Veyils said:
    Mana drains drain a base + a % aeldra. There is a big difference between mana or ego killing something with 6k 8k or 12k mana. Having a larger mana pool really makes your more resistant to mana kills.

    Theres a lot of points raised here Ianir has covered but the long to short of it is classes had vastly different vitals, resistances and tankynes pre overhaul. Overhaul broke this and basically gave all classess the ability to get pretty much the same vitals, resistances and roughly the same armour.

    This will be a very good fix to make classes more distinct.
    Yes, in theory there's a "flat" percent, but the impact is so minimal that you can't tell it, in my personal opinion. I have vivid memory fighting as a monk when I didn't have 12.3k and I didn't die any more or less to mana drains then I do when am aquachem and have 12.3k mana. Sure, -on paper- there's a minimal difference, but with how the mana kills work, it doesn't really make a difference. And yes, I remember when I was wicca, for succumb it played a slight role, but ... nowhere near the impact a health  (or an ego ) has on terms of survivability. I will agree that this may be an issue with the specific skills involved in this and in the end, it's just my opinion and observations.

    It makes a huge difference to mana kills and how you can cure. Specific skills yes make a bigger difference. Eg Succumb totally ruins folks with lower mana due to the high fixed mana drain as part of its set up. When you can drain 3k mana as a fixed thing thats 50% of a 6k mana targets vital. But to me that 3k fixed mana drain is 24.3% of my mana.

    Can you see how having a higher mana pool makes a huge difference to surviving mana kills?

    The difference between doing 50% of someones mana in a set up and 24% is a huge huge huge difference.


  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    Ciaran said:

    One of the big sticking points is that people hate to have things taken away.  Players are used to having lots of health, and bashing certain areas, and they're going to be mad when that changes.



    It does sounds like this is the biggest issue against the change.
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 903 Transcendent
    I like the change. I'll think over the specific numbers later but this is a good way to further distinguish classes. I'll make a point that in my (unscientific) opinion, max health is overrated for pvp compared to resists. However it does have a more noticeable effect in bashing. Dropping my health by a few thousand would make it harder to bash in some of my regular spots, but most of the time I don't even use sparkleberry and scroll unless I run into a bigger clump of enemies. This will incentivize using all my healing options more.

    I do agree that mana is significantly less important for bashing, but there are some locations that have enough bleed to pressure your mana. In combat, I feel the impact of a lower max mana more than lower max health, as mana kills against me are often done 40%+ mana (partly a function of how twist works).

    I don't really influence a whole lot, but ego drain isn't really an issue for me there vs general speed. This could move the Justice competition back to heavily bard favoured, though, which I think is a shame.
  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    Veyils said:
    Ciaran said:

    One of the big sticking points is that people hate to have things taken away.  Players are used to having lots of health, and bashing certain areas, and they're going to be mad when that changes.



    It does sounds like this is the biggest issue against the change.
    It's one issue... And I think with good reason...

    So, here's a rate I pulled from an aether run just now... 

    Group astral, last time I was there with a group of 5 or so, was 1.6m/hr

    Compared to solo... pre arti, I could maybe approach 200k, with arties on astral, I can do about 360k/hr, and only on astral. Influencing is around 260k/hr in Lirangsha. So... why nerf solo when it's already so far behind? Fractionally as much as group activities...

    Shedrin said:
    I don't really influence a whole lot, but ego drain isn't really an issue for me there vs general speed. This could move the Justice competition back to heavily bard favoured, though, which I think is a shame.
    What is your ego vital at? Yes, if it's in the range this report is supposedly targeted at... 11k+, you're not going to have much trouble... And yes, influencing's limited by speed too...

    But nerfing the low end so strongly will really hurt.
    beep
  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 400 Creator
    Shedrin said:
    This could move the Justice competition back to heavily bard favoured, though, which I think is a shame.
    This is a point I do agree with. We can go ahead and set this to a uniform value during Justice, it's easy enough to do.
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  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 903 Transcendent
    Yehn said:

    Shedrin said:
    I don't really influence a whole lot, but ego drain isn't really an issue for me there vs general speed. This could move the Justice competition back to heavily bard favoured, though, which I think is a shame.
    What is your ego vital at? Yes, if it's in the range this report is supposedly targeted at... 11k+, you're not going to have much trouble... And yes, influencing's limited by speed too...

    But nerfing the low end so strongly will really hurt.
    8800 give or take a few points if I'm not a bard. I can keep up with the ego drains from influencing fine, I have more trouble with influencing fast enough to beat them going willful against strong mobs.
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 763 Mythical
    Shedrin said:
    I like the change. I'll think over the specific numbers later but this is a good way to further distinguish classes. I'll make a point that in my (unscientific) opinion, max health is overrated for pvp compared to resists. 
    I guess it depends on how highly other people rate it, but it's pretty significant since maxhp impacts your sip rate/sparkle rate/regen rate.

    I'll just say that dropping the max health of other classes and leaving warriors at ~11k is a solid buff for them, as well as a solid buff for damage kill classes.

    Finally, I like that people are more survivable.  The old days of getting popped in 5 seconds in big group fights were seriously lame.  I support the changes, but at the same time I hope that the average time to death remains roughly where it is now, because I think it's in a good place.  If we see people melting way too fast after the change, I'd recommend toning down some damage skills, instead of boosting health higher again.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,614 Transcendent
    Ianir said:
    Shedrin said:
    This could move the Justice competition back to heavily bard favoured, though, which I think is a shame.
    This is a point I do agree with. We can go ahead and set this to a uniform value during Justice, it's easy enough to do.
    To be perfectly frank, this is a stupid idea. Full disclosure, I am against this report entirely. However, what makes Justice so special that you need to level the playing field when in all of the other events one vital (likely health) will be better to have than the others? Honestly, this is the exact short-sightedness that gives me no hope of this new overhaul being completed and well balanced.

    Heck, Hallifax and Gaudiguch are still waiting for monks from the last overhaul.
  • CazantoCazanto Member Posts: 55 Capable
    I've been playing for... a little less than a month, so take this with the relevant amount of salt-grains.  That said, I've years of experience in different MUDs, and if there's one thing I've learned with mechanical changes, it is this:  If a change punches-down, it is generally a bad change on the whole.

    If a change does things like, make a previously manageable hunting area untenable for a group of players, that change had better have some amazing reasoning behind it, because you've just diminished the game experience for all those players.

    If your objective is good, but your method results in the above, change your method.

    I won't pretend to have a deep knowledge of what is being discussed here.  I can't tell you if the objective of the report is a good one or a disaster for a large number of people.  I just don't have the experience to know.  But if you're pulling things away from people, particularly those who aren't at the top-tier?  Think hard.  Because you can do more harm to their experience than whatever benefit is actually derived.
  • KagatoKagato Carmichael, CAMember Posts: 1,099 Fabled
    edited August 7
    Ianir said:
    Health : 10905/10905 (Bard)
    Health : 11800/11800 (Warrior)
    Health : 10800/10800 (Wiccan)
    Health : 12960/10800 (Mage)

    Those are just people I randomly pulled off of QW just this second. If you're missing these numbers and you're constantly succoring people, I'm really not sure what to tell you.
    @Ianir, as a Celestine demigod at the moment, I have the following stats:

    Health:7800/7800  (4/13 vitals boost)
    Mana:10800/10800 (10/13 vitals boost)
    Ego: 7800/7800 (4/13 vitals boost)

    That is with the following:

    *****************************[ Bodyscan - Vitals ]*****************************
    Stat                  Effect                                     Value      Max
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Health                Veteran                                        1        4
    Health                Endurance                                      1        4
    Health                Ablution                                       1        5
    Health                Fortuna                                        1        5
                             Total                                        4

    Mana                  Philosophy                                     1        4
    Mana                  Analytics                                      1        4
    Mana                  Lustration                                     1        5
    Mana                  Ceremonies                                     5       10
    Mana                  Chaos domoth minor blessing                    4       10
                               Total                                       10

    Ego                   Netzach                                        1        2
    Ego                   Populus                                        1        2
    Ego                   Histrionics                                    1        4
    Ego                   Magnetism                                      1        4
                             Total                                        4

    *******************************************************************************

    Seems a bit... iffy to be tweaking numbers off the presumption that people are going to have 13/13 in all 3 stats.  I already feel rather squishy with just 7800 health, now if the numbers are tweaked, those numbers are going to fall further - and that is as a DEMIGOD.

    EDIT: Changed numbers/bodyscan to include full buffs as a Celestine, unless I missed a couple.
  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    edited August 7
    Just one observation: I notice everyone in the report (with exception of one example from Veyils, but even she didn't go below 5/*) is using examples of demi vitals at a 13/13 cap.

    If the problem statement is for demis at 10+ buffs... If virtually all examples are demis at 10+ buffs. Then I'll just say again: Your solution should target demis at 10+ buffs...
    beep
  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    Kagato said:
    Seems a bit... iffy to be tweaking numbers off the presumption that people are going to have 13/13 in all 3 stats.  I already feel rather squishy with just 7800 health, now if the numbers are tweaked, those numbers are going to fall further - and that is as a DEMIGOD.

    EDIT: Changed numbers/bodyscan to include full buffs as a Celestine, unless I missed a couple.

    You'd be able to clot a lot with all that mana, at least.. : P
    beep
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