The Folly of Specialisation

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Comments

  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 974 Mythical
    While the terminology is similar, I wouldn't particularly compare the plan going forward to a MOBA. Instead, the idea is to ensure that each class/skillchoice combination in each archtype has certain archetype-specific abilities that envoys can use as a framework to balance around, and then to prune any unnecessary/kludgy abilities from classes which aren't required of their archtype. The current goal, for example, is bards. According to the current design paradigm, every bard should:

    1. Be capable of damage kills in both solo and group combat.
    2. Have a high degree of mobility both inside and outside of combat. (See sprint, tumble+ bond unite, hermit, etc.)
    3. Defend themselves via active evasion rather than passive resilience. (Hello there, IllusorySelf.)
    4. Provide noticeable benefits/penalties with their song passive effects.
    5. Not require archetype-specific tactics to counter particular passives. (Hi, Sleep/Drunk/Hunger attrition.)
    6. NOT be able to hold people in the room as well as they can right now. (P5 Delenda Est.)

    All of that COULD be summed up as "burst dps with minor support", but a lot of important detail is lost in translation when you do. There are similar ideas coming out for other archetypes, as the Envoys and the Admins work out their unified vision for where to take various archetypes as they correct the biggest structural problems with each one.
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,376 Mythical
    edited August 12
    Saran said:
    Annick said:
    I we saying classes as in harbinger, caco, cantor, minstrel ? Or saying archetypes i.e. Bard? Because archetype wise not all entities contained within an archetype are good at everything.... 

    or or is it going off the assumption that if person a picks class b they will pick tertiary c?
    Looks like it's bard/melders/warriors/etc.

    Still really uncertain about the plan for each though. Like, are we going to have the holy trinity of tank, dps, and healer/support?

    And if they are, would certain terts make them more effective at their role while others sacrifice effectiveness for strength outside their role.
    Like if you said Wiccans are supports/healers, healing enhances that, while hexes sacrifices that so they can contribute more to offense or w/e.

    Though, I'm also still confused as to why there are comparisons to MOBAs when MMOs are the closer comparison given smaller selection of kits with a wider group of available skills and which have a wide variety of pvp modes that can be used as examples that range from 1v1 up to potentially hundreds of combatants.
     Yea I think people really need to put the moba or mmo comparisons out of their heads.

    Also most classes are not set in stone but it may help if we explain a little bit of the rough concepts that are floating around right now.

    Warrior in my eyes are being pegged as the behemoth style fighter. They are supposed to be tough and hard to kill with direct damage.  They kill by building momentum with wounds and decent direct damage. They should have the offensive and defensive tools to break into an enemy room survive for a bit and cause some havoc maybe by flinging people out or something. (Right now this is a role bards fill and warriors not so much)

    Melders are to be the area and group control, which they already are masters off but there's a rework in plan to make them more dynamic and give them deadlier tools to kill with. (Currently melders are masters here but bards bring pretty decent room control with rubble/smudges/octave.)

    Wiccans/guardians are the special instant killers. They get their kills with their unique special kills and control and mess with enemy groups with special movements, summons beckons or other weird stuff, etc(right now bards with tarot are amazing at moving enemies and bards in general at keeping them locked down with numerous anti movement/hinder/disrupt/stun songs) wiccans guardians would seem to vary the most within archetype.

    Monks are getting pegged as the build to burst insta class with decent damage and strong affliction output. Bards as the setup damage burst class.

    It's maybe an over simplification but the concept is we should be in a situation where you want all classes to be present. Right now a team with nothing but a few melders and the rest bards could kick a more varied teams ass what with the bard bringing everything and the kitchen sink to the fight. 

    Ideally we want all classes to have a place within the game and a reason to bring each class.


    Edit: and your 100% right in that different tert will create variety within the archetype and there will be some overlay and overlap eg tracker warriors will bring good area and room control etc. 
  • TremulaTremula the Fate's choice for Drocilla Member Posts: 2,459 Transcendent
    I'm taking it as 'instead of thinking of us like MOBA or MMO classes, think of us like DnD or other tabletop classes', would that be fair?

    I like the direction that the envoys and admin are taking to define the classes, personally, and I'm looking forward to see how this lets them improve gameplay for mages especially. Will chemwoods be effected by this as well?
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 399 Creator
    Tremula said:
    Will chemwoods be effected by this as well?
    Chemwoods will be receiving a major look at along with melders. More info to come.
    Forum Avatar drawn by our lovely Isune.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,666 Mythical
    Veyils said:
    Saran said:
    Annick said:
    I we saying classes as in harbinger, caco, cantor, minstrel ? Or saying archetypes i.e. Bard? Because archetype wise not all entities contained within an archetype are good at everything.... 

    or or is it going off the assumption that if person a picks class b they will pick tertiary c?
    Looks like it's bard/melders/warriors/etc.

    Still really uncertain about the plan for each though. Like, are we going to have the holy trinity of tank, dps, and healer/support?

    And if they are, would certain terts make them more effective at their role while others sacrifice effectiveness for strength outside their role.
    Like if you said Wiccans are supports/healers, healing enhances that, while hexes sacrifices that so they can contribute more to offense or w/e.

    Though, I'm also still confused as to why there are comparisons to MOBAs when MMOs are the closer comparison given smaller selection of kits with a wider group of available skills and which have a wide variety of pvp modes that can be used as examples that range from 1v1 up to potentially hundreds of combatants.
     Yea I think people really need to put the moba or mmo comparisons out of their heads.

    Also most classes are not set in stone but it may help if we explain a little bit of the rough concepts that are floating around right now.

    Warrior in my eyes are being pegged as the behemoth style fighter. They are supposed to be tough and hard to kill with direct damage.  They kill by building momentum with wounds and decent direct damage. They should have the offensive and defensive tools to break into an enemy room survive for a bit and cause some havoc maybe by flinging people out or something. (Right now this is a role bards fill and warriors not so much)

    Melders are to be the area and group control, which they already are masters off but there's a rework in plan to make them more dynamic and give them deadlier tools to kill with. (Currently melders are masters here but bards bring pretty decent room control with rubble/smudges/octave.)

    Wiccans/guardians are the special instant killers. They get their kills with their unique special kills and control and mess with enemy groups with special movements, summons beckons or other weird stuff, etc(right now bards with tarot are amazing at moving enemies and bards in general at keeping them locked down with numerous anti movement/hinder/disrupt/stun songs) wiccans guardians would seem to vary the most within archetype.

    Monks are getting pegged as the build to burst insta class with decent damage and strong affliction output. Bards as the setup damage burst class.

    It's maybe an over simplification but the concept is we should be in a situation where you want all classes to be present. Right now a team with nothing but a few melders and the rest bards could kick a more varied teams ass what with the bard bringing everything and the kitchen sink to the fight. 

    Ideally we want all classes to have a place within the game and a reason to bring each class.


    Edit: and your 100% right in that different tert will create variety within the archetype and there will be some overlay and overlap eg tracker warriors will bring good area and room control etc. 
    Thanks, that's much clearer. 

    Just with that though it seems like bards and monks share a similar niche but in their own way, same with Wiccans/Guardians and Melders.

    Not expecting that they'll be samey, but seems like this could balance around parties of three and five?
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  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 399 Creator
    Just to update this - While Veyils' explanation of the project's intentions and actions are pretty much what were discussed and agreed upon, and this understanding seems to be gaining some support: The project which all of this encompasses is now on indefinite (and possibly permanent to be considered in a couple months) hold. This includes the definition of class goals for envoys, the possible melder and chemwood analyses and revamps, and all current requested special reports.

    Standard reports will continue as normal.
    Forum Avatar drawn by our lovely Isune.
  • BandeonBandeon Member Posts: 61 Capable
    @Ianir Can we maybe get a bit more about this decision? I thought the discussion up to this point was fairly benign minus the usual "I'm smarter than you" bits. I'm just curious why defining roles for specific classes is something that needs to be this contentious, considering up until the introduction of monks, there were three pretty clearly defined classes with abilities that overlapped a lot less than class abilities overlap now.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,733 Transcendent
    Bandeon: My understanding is that it's not about the project itself, more other things coming up that make pursuing it problematic at this point in time.  It's on hold for now, but not necessarily torpedoed entirely; will have to see how things go.
    image
  • BandeonBandeon Member Posts: 61 Capable
    Fair enough, thanks for the answer
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