Should the use of fast movement devices, artifacts, etc. be restricted for world games?

MrakMrak Member Posts: 157 Adept
edited October 8 in Common Grounds
During the hamster hunt, the use of cubixes was prevented. I know at least one of the hamster hunt leaders (i.e. me) used tricks to get around this restriction. I'd be surprised if the other didn't as well.

Maybe in response to this, teleportation and pyramids were also restricted for the harmony event today. Throughout the course of the event, other ways of getting around these restrictions were prevented, including ascending to the havens, following others, path finding, empress, and summons.

My basic question is: do people like these restrictions? Do you want them included in future events?

As you might imagine from me making this post, I am not a fan. My perspective is that we should reward preparation of all sorts, including obtaining lots of bix-like items, getting friends to help, planning out stuff beforehand, etc. Furthermore, it's unclear to me why these things are turned off for harmony and the hamster hunt, but not for other events (it wasn't turned off for death, I wasn't there for the scavenger hunt so I don't know). 

My counter-argument is basically the following: turning off these artifacts and artifact-like items opens up the field less artifact rich people. I think we had a newer player come in third on the hamster hunt, which is kind of cool. Shutting down pay-to-win is something that in principle I support. I'd try to steel man this argument further, but I don't know how. I'm happy to hear other arguments in favor.

Note: Lirangshan Mist was also shut down for future harmony events. I see this as being in the same class of items.

Should the use of fast movement devices, artifacts, etc. be restricted for world games? 30 votes

Yes
66%
MoiShaddusSylphasAsmodeaLothringenKagatoSaranDaraiusLehkiAnitaTekoraTremulaAramelSylandraRolsandVersaleanSarrasriVeyilsRidetaYasei  野生 20 votes
No
16%
CiaranYarithEssEsoneyunaZardondack 5 votes
It's complicated
16%
ArixDysAeldraChirbiValysha 5 votes
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Comments

  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 400 Creator
    So, not going to vote myself, but let me go down a few points.

    Mrak said:
    Lirangshan Mist was also shut down for future harmony events.
    This will not be changing. This is in the same class as using them for revolts.

    Mrak said:
     Furthermore, it's unclear to me why these things are turned off for harmony and the hamster hunt, but not for other events (it wasn't turned off for death, I wasn't there for the scavenger hunt so I don't know). 
    Well, we're testing this out since it's been in the game since 2005 and barely used (if ever before this year), and the code support for it has been pretty much ignored until now. Anniversary Death didn't receive it because the runner didn't wish to to activate it at that time, and it was a useful control trial anyway. The goal is to use it to even the playing field, and this is in sense a trial basis to see if we even want to touch them on Ascension. Also to update the code even if we only rarely use it, because still-useful-yet-functionally-dead code makes me sad.

    Mrak said:
    During the hamster hunt, the use of cubixes was prevented. I know at least one of the hamster hunt leaders (i.e. me) used tricks to get around this restriction. I'd be surprised if the other didn't as well.
    The question here isn't whether the tricks are being used, it's whether they should be. Appeal to the masses is not a valid argument for balancing a competition.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,376 Transcendent
    Nothing wrong with a level playing field. 
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  • MrakMrak Member Posts: 157 Adept
    Ianir said:

    The question here isn't whether the tricks are being used, it's whether they should be. Appeal to the masses is not a valid argument for balancing a competition.
    I totally agree. That wasn't an attempt at an argument, but rather me explaining my view of "how we got here" to all of today's changelogs. Also, I want to stress that I certainly feel that all of these changes are "fair" in that they're not favoring one side over the other.

    Since the mass seems to be coming down in favor of restrictions, I have to wonder: what is the right level of restrictions? The stuff we did today? Why don't we also nix influencing/vitals/crit runes for these events? Or for that matter, charismatic aura and the level-related crit bonus? My point isn't that they should be, but rather that it's unclear what the relevant distinguishing factor is between the stuff currently restricted and the stuff which could in principle be restricted.
  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 400 Creator
    Mrak said:
    Ianir said:

    The question here isn't whether the tricks are being used, it's whether they should be. Appeal to the masses is not a valid argument for balancing a competition.
    I totally agree. That wasn't an attempt at an argument, but rather me explaining my view of "how we got here" to all of today's changelogs. Also, I want to stress that I certainly feel that all of these changes are "fair" in that they're not favoring one side over the other.

    Since the mass seems to be coming down in favor of restrictions, I have to wonder: what is the right level of restrictions? The stuff we did today? Why don't we also nix influencing/vitals/crit runes for these events? Or for that matter, charismatic aura and the level-related crit bonus? My point isn't that they should be, but rather that it's unclear what the relevant distinguishing factor is between the stuff currently restricted and the stuff which could in principle be restricted.
    I was actually considering that earlier, and there is actually a deprecated worldgame setting called 'nodef' which would be perfect for that. However, I have a feeling some people might have my head for that one.

    Honestly, it's something that bears experimentation and study, and I might be running a few harmony/death events after the anniversary to play with new limitations. It's fun to see what kind of restrictions you can throw at the wall.
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,639 Transcendent
    edited October 8
    While I'm feeling like I could go either way regarding this question, I feel like if we're going to address these challenges like this - and I believe using the anniversary trials to test some things out for future Ascensions was a good thing - I want to put in my plug about Harmony challenges. Mainly the part about being able to follow an influencer around and being able to damage-tap whatever they're influencing to make them hostile and uninfluencable. Indeed, travel contrivances are key to outmaneuvring people that do that, even if they hold the same tools - I feel like it'd be even easier to tail someone without them.

    With Harmony challenges being non-PK, it seems against the spirit of the challenge to be able to do that, and you can't really visit a reprisal on people that do. I think this argument could be made for poisoning furrikin in Life too, but I don't think it'd be as strong.

    image
  • ArixArix Member Posts: 867 Fabled
    edited October 9
    It's complicated
    Seems people still got around fairly well. Only people who got screwed are ones like me who joined the event to kill time and weren't already at places with high value targets. Though that restriction about not following people who aren't in the event was a bit late/explained a bit
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,614 Transcendent
    I actually like the changes, but so far they have only been active in non-free pk events. Travel time becomes a larger factor when taking into consideration which locations to go to. This will also make stealth veil (which I think is possibly the most OP skill you can have in such events) a little less strong by virtue of the user not being able to be in a location on the other side of the Basin even time they get seeked.  I do wonder how this will play out in free-pk events, though. It'd also be interesting if these restrictions were introduced into an event like Life, where the strategy is to have everyone else spread out to find the furrikins for whoever they are supporting.
     
    On a related note, if we are going to be serious about leveling the playing field I'd like to see a few extra more removed, such as the wonderbrazier buffs to influencing. Basically the rules should be similar to those for the Justice competition, where it is basically just racial bonuses and stuff that appears in BODYSCAN.
  • ArixArix Member Posts: 867 Fabled
    It's complicated
    Ok so here were the buffs I was wondering about: thrones and charismaticaura

  • TremulaTremula the Fate's choice for Drocilla Member Posts: 2,465 Transcendent
    Yes
    With my defs and my mounts, I've placed rather high historically in most hamster hunts. This is without access to the majority of 'bixes. The way I see it, this indirect nerf could give me a major buff, and I'm glad to see a bone tossed in my general playing field.
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  • ChirbiChirbi Member Posts: 131 Capable
    edited October 9
    It's complicated
    I'm not sure I can vote because I am mixed on what I think is fair and what is not, and i think there are good compromises. For example, what if we lowered the cap on buffs during games? That way artifacts are still helpful, but instead of having a 13/13 influence stat, I max out at 8/8 which most folks can contend with. This would still give me the advantage of being able to use my buffs on other influence stats that I don't have runes for. This would be more helpful when/if celerity gets moved to bodyscan.

    I personally am more likely to favour skills staying than I am artifacts. Thrones, being mounted to your influence beast, movement enhancements are clever things to remember. Winged sandals are just a nice thing to have bought.

    Was everyone trying to find loopholes? I suspected catacombs didn't get turned off (I think I used it to get to Ptoma?) but then I tried not to use it afterwards even when I thought it'd be helpful. Preparation (building a database of all the point values during the year) and loophole hunting aren't the same kind of tactics. Why not just work in the spirit of the event?

    edit2add: For the record, I feel the stratification seen in this event is from multiple years of playing the same event. I have artifacts, lots of trans skills, and 6 months of lots of play time and I think I held my own considering. The fact that two places ahead of me was triple my score indicates those players knew where the best points were already. They did the math on time spent influencing vs point rewards, time to walk around, etc. Artifacts aren't what made the schism in harmony scoring.
  • ChirbiChirbi Member Posts: 131 Capable
    It's complicated
    This is more in the spirit of spitballing than anything else, but what if every artifact worn by someone who entered a game became temporarily available to every other participant? Someone brings sandals? We can all get sandals!
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,089 Mythical
    Chirbi said:
    This is more in the spirit of spitballing than anything else, but what if every artifact worn by someone who entered a game became temporarily available to every other participant? Someone brings sandals? We can all get sandals!
    Or, in this spirit, during such events perhaps one could release the artifact bandits from the days of yore? They hold all the stuff that can help. So they're all available to everybody, but you have to put in/waste the effort on the side to go hunt them down and acquire the temporary artifacts if you don't already own them.

    If the minimal effort required to hunt them down isn't worth the time lost, the bonuses couldn't be that overwhelming.

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  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    Yes
    Doesn't have to be one or the other.

    We can or could do events with everything turned on or everything turned off.

    Moar events plz.
  • MrakMrak Member Posts: 157 Adept
    Chirbi said:
     those players knew where the best points were already. They did the math on time spent influencing vs point rewards, time to walk around, etc. Artifacts aren't what made the schism in harmony scoring.
    Fortunately, on knowledge of points, that should be less of an issue because of the changes to CONSIDER (@Ianir is the best). However, the issue is partly that the access to artifacts is a complement to that knowledge, not a substitute for it. Being able to pop around to all of the highest point-per-influence places with your cubix/curio/pyramid makes you get stuff way faster. And if you have a big stack of lirangshan jars, I presume you can use them on some particular mob and just rake in the points.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 913 Fabled
    edited October 9
    No
    I'm of the opinion that this change skews the events more towards the side(s) with more players online/invested. Bixes and fast teleportation methods don't serve just as a movement tool but also as an escape mechanism against gankers who will declare in otherwise non combative events. If your side can't field the people to both participate and stand around in comparison to the other team, you're going to come up short to aggression. The prime example of this, of course, is the Life challenge.
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  • EsoneyunaEsoneyuna Member Posts: 17 Apprentice
    No
    While I do not mind the occasional blockout of travel artifacts I do not believe it needs to be done on a regular basis. There are also different factors that dictate your ability to compete like level, skills, the place you are at when the  event starts,  home org, etc and unless those are being leveled too this just seems arbitrary to me.

    Though a combat event where you can only use newbie kick and punch and no buffs does seem funny to me, please make one of those.


  • ChirbiChirbi Member Posts: 131 Capable
    edited October 9
    It's complicated
    Mrak said:
    Chirbi said:
     those players knew where the best points were already. They did the math on time spent influencing vs point rewards, time to walk around, etc. Artifacts aren't what made the schism in harmony scoring.
    Fortunately, on knowledge of points, that should be less of an issue because of the changes to CONSIDER (@Ianir is the best). However, the issue is partly that the access to artifacts is a complement to that knowledge, not a substitute for it. Being able to pop around to all of the highest point-per-influence places with your cubix/curio/pyramid makes you get stuff way faster. And if you have a big stack of lirangshan jars, I presume you can use them on some particular mob and just rake in the points.
    Consider as a spontaneous tool to see points is going to net you <1k score, consider on top of having done similar harmony/hunt events in the past and already knowing where the best points are is going to get you 2k+ points. I agree it was a big help, but once the event was going it's only real use was to decide if I wanted to waste my time on 5 point trash.

    For what it's worth, I am comfortable with how the scoring came out. My opinion that spreadsheets and research leading to the stratification isn't a salty one! I feel fairly bested and that now that I have more experience I bet I could double my score next go around. I don't think OP artifacts made the difference in the Harmony event specifically so that's why I voted 'it's complicated.' I got beat because of skill, not money investment.

    I agree bix and mist jars are too much! I just don't think all artifacts are. Org transplanar items (key, belt, etc.) seem slightly more reasonable than curio which seem slightly more reasonable than cubix. Havens, personally, seems like fair play since it's incredibly accessible to players.
  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 671 Mythical
    Yes
    My 2c:

    I think my bottom-line response to the overall question would depend upon what the prizes are. Wait, wait - don't click yet! Let me finish. If the prize is that your org gets some kind of mechanical leg-up (e.g., wildnodes, villages, any other bad examples), I'm all for people with artefacts having an advantage. I know it isn't a popular viewpoint, but in this business model adopted by IRE, part of the psychological contract is that if I pour money into Kethuru's maw, I should find the game easier and more enjoyable than I otherwise would (please read what I just wrote very carefully before flaming). Now, while I see no reason why that should be different just because the part of the game we're now talking about is competitive - and as such, not categorically any different from a duel or just trying to level faster than my nemesis so I can kick his ass next time we cross paths - I do think that contract doesn't extend to competitive events in which the prize is more currency (e.g., credits, presents, dingdings - actually, I'd add Ascension to that list, but feel that that's more problematic).

    In short, I would expect people with artefacts to find it easier to win. That's the point in some of those artefacts. But I don't think artefacts should ever be a license to print money (yes, I get that artefacts let you make more gold which lets you buy more credits, so again the distinction isn't as categorical as I might like).

    If you're wondering why, despite that lengthy diatribe I still voted Yes, it's because I think a restriction is definitely worth tabling, but that an outright ban of any advantages whatsoever (especially as BODYSCAN buffs has been raised) seems to me like the thin end of a very strange wedge.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,614 Transcendent
    edited October 9
    For what it's worth, I calculated how many more points I got from influencing the mobs I got to mist jar and it came out to be around 650 points. This would have made the score closer, but I would still have won the contest. This is also not taking into account the time I used to influence the mob instead of just influencing other things that would have got me some points, or that me influencing the same mob for a longer period of time meaning I was competing less with other people for mobs.
  • TarkenTarken Member Posts: 20 Apprentice

    I essentially agree with Yarith's reason for thinking this isn't such a cut and dry idea. I think it was cool for the anniversary games because at the end of the day people will go hard on these but won't pull out all the stops. I think it would get very messy for seal harmony/death (particularly with death where you have your 10+ roaming squads), and not in a particularly fun way, since those are the kind of situations where your recourse is get out in sub 5 seconds or get ready to phoenix.

    So I am against it for events where people are looking not to lose at all costs, but think its a cool twist on games like the ones we've had the last couple of days where the stakes aren't quite so high.

  • DysDys Member Posts: 437 Gifted
    It's complicated
    Yes for some, no for others. I'm happy with it as a variant, like PK/no-PK.

    Also how many mist jars?!
  • AeldraAeldra Member Posts: 948 Mythical
    It's complicated
    For a harmony challenge on an enforced non-pk event, this is an interesting twist, allowing people to compete on a level playing field, so that's actually interesting.

    On a situation, such a seal challenge,  I feel it's inviting death and chaos and frustration. If I think back to last years death challenge ( which I was competing and ended on 6th or something ), the amount of times I was tracked down and chased by over 10 people and my only chance was that I had a bazillion of ways to escape.

    Not to mention that I spent hours preparing the places that seemed worth going to.

    So my verdict is this:

    on an harmony challenge, even the seal -IF- you can't punch mobs to make them uninfluencable or other shenanigans ( such as locking people in that are competing ) then, this would be really a show of 'who's got the best strategy and the fastest influencing ), which I'd enjoy.

    on a death challenge, I'm feeling like there's no way this would be a good sort of change. You need to be mobile and able to escape, even if it's just your orgbix or 'teleport nexus'.


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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,736 Transcendent
    I guess my question is: how are you supposed to get to places like Icewynd or Dio during a challenge if all the non-quest ways to get there are disabled?  Are you expected to go there before joining the event?  So anyone who starts in a hard-to-access area before officially joining gets an edge, and anyone who doesn't consider that and joins from the main continent is just stuck there...
    image
  • ChirbiChirbi Member Posts: 131 Capable
    It's complicated
    Xenthos said:
    I guess my question is: how are you supposed to get to places like Icewynd or Dio during a challenge if all the non-quest ways to get there are disabled?  Are you expected to go there before joining the event?  So anyone who starts in a hard-to-access area before officially joining gets an edge, and anyone who doesn't consider that and joins from the main continent is just stuck there...
    Can you elaborate @Xenthos ? Nobody was stuck on the main continent during these events. Anyone could have hoofed it to Icewynd half-way through if they wanted, it'd just be a terrible use of time.
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 958 Fabled
    edited October 9

    Chirbi said:
    Xenthos said:
    I guess my question is: how are you supposed to get to places like Icewynd or Dio during a challenge if all the non-quest ways to get there are disabled?  Are you expected to go there before joining the event?  So anyone who starts in a hard-to-access area before officially joining gets an edge, and anyone who doesn't consider that and joins from the main continent is just stuck there...
    Can you elaborate @Xenthos ? Nobody was stuck on the main continent during these events. Anyone could have hoofed it to Icewynd half-way through if they wanted, it'd just be a terrible use of time.

    Icewynd and Dio are impossible to get to without a rift or the object teleports (balloon, curio set). The 'normal' way to get to them was the Observatory (which obviously is destroyed).

    So if the rifts are distorted, there is no other way (as I thought the curio set and balloon were disable for the event for counting as teleports)
  • ChirbiChirbi Member Posts: 131 Capable
    It's complicated
    Ayisdra said:

    Chirbi said:
    Xenthos said:
    I guess my question is: how are you supposed to get to places like Icewynd or Dio during a challenge if all the non-quest ways to get there are disabled?  Are you expected to go there before joining the event?  So anyone who starts in a hard-to-access area before officially joining gets an edge, and anyone who doesn't consider that and joins from the main continent is just stuck there...
    Can you elaborate @Xenthos ? Nobody was stuck on the main continent during these events. Anyone could have hoofed it to Icewynd half-way through if they wanted, it'd just be a terrible use of time.

    Icewynd and Dio are impossible to get to without a rift or the object teleports (balloon, curio set). The 'normal' way to get to them was the Observatory (which obviously is destroyed).

    So if the rifts are distorted, there is no other way (as I thought the curio set and balloon were disable for the event for counting as teleports)
    I didn't realize they closed the crystalline meadow during the event. Good to know.
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,380 Mythical
    Yes
    Chirbi said:
    Ayisdra said:

    Chirbi said:
    Xenthos said:
    I guess my question is: how are you supposed to get to places like Icewynd or Dio during a challenge if all the non-quest ways to get there are disabled?  Are you expected to go there before joining the event?  So anyone who starts in a hard-to-access area before officially joining gets an edge, and anyone who doesn't consider that and joins from the main continent is just stuck there...
    Can you elaborate @Xenthos ? Nobody was stuck on the main continent during these events. Anyone could have hoofed it to Icewynd half-way through if they wanted, it'd just be a terrible use of time.

    Icewynd and Dio are impossible to get to without a rift or the object teleports (balloon, curio set). The 'normal' way to get to them was the Observatory (which obviously is destroyed).

    So if the rifts are distorted, there is no other way (as I thought the curio set and balloon were disable for the event for counting as teleports)
    I didn't realize they closed the crystalline meadow during the event. Good to know.

    The meadows were not closed by admin but individuals distorted them on a number of events which basically locks out anyone who doesnt have the artifacts.
  • AnitaAnita Member Posts: 559 Mythical
    Yes
    I think it's great that these things have been disabled during the world-events, and it's a great time for the admin to see what works and what doesn't during these Anniversary games ready for the Ascension when it comes.

    I think it levels out the playing field - everyone is on the same page with having to (omg) walk.


    Re Icewynd/Dio, maybe distort can be disabled during world-events too; thus making these places still accessible AND being able to get out (since ascend for demigods is also disabled.)
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,736 Transcendent
    What if someone destroys the rifts pre-event, or even during-event?  Rifts are player made, you cannot count on them always being there.
    image
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,736 Transcendent
    Another question:
    What about the Waste Storage Facility?  Whoever starts the event in there gets everything to themselves?

    (The only way in is using a torus, using some other teleporter like a pyramid puzzle or a hermit or a spore, or giving dark essence to a janitor who can be murderfaced if the rift has been destroyed).

    Honestly, the more I think about this, the more I think this opens the system up to gaming.  The person who preps the best and doesn't join the event until they are in the right position gets a significant advantage in terms of making progress, because nobody else can get to them (either to interfere or to take some of those points for themselves).
    image
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