The Midnight Crew Vs. The Felt! A Mobster Mafia. [MAFIA WINS!]

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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,479 Transcendent
    Well, fun game either way. Think the town bumbled along on this one, which I'm certainly guilty of. 
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  • ArixArix Member Posts: 1,036 Mythical
    I really hate being the doctor, also something that bugged me was having a bomber and nobody who could detect/remove bombs. Actually, just gonna ask @Lehki now: If I had used my power on someone whose bomb would have gone off that night, what would have happened?
  • SiddSidd Member Posts: 202 Capable
    You are right, Vigilante is a town role, but you know what a vigilante does? They kill people. You know what scum does? They kill people. Two different roles that can perform the same power? Say it ain't so!

    You know, kind of like the Investigator/Consigliere comparison. Scum doesn't get investigators, they get consigliere's, but for some reason, consigliere's can claim to be an investigator despite the fact that investigator is a town only role. Weird how that happens.

    By your argument, you can't claim a town only power with any sort of credibility but somehow investigator (a town only role) can be claimed and you even made that argument!

    Here's how I could have foreseen it going. 

    'Hey, I'm <insert safe claim name here> and I can kill people using <safe claim tool/power/whatever because Tremula's role reveal showed that you can use your safe claim's powers to give you credibility> so I'm a vigilante, instead of just a regular ol' scum killing people, like scum do.' 

    The flavor fit, the evidence that this was a possible fit, I'm not sure why you think your claim should have somehow been ironclad without any reason to doubt it just because you used the word 'Vigilante'
  • ArixArix Member Posts: 1,036 Mythical
    Also early on I was actually somewhat trying to play my role as a grouchy old man who has absolutely no time for your shenanigans but that went a weird place
  • LehkiLehki Member Posts: 1,219 Fabled
    Arix said:
    I really hate being the doctor, also something that bugged me was having a bomber and nobody who could detect/remove bombs. Actually, just gonna ask @Lehki now: If I had used my power on someone whose bomb would have gone off that night, what would have happened?
    A bomb was more just the flavor of it, it was gonna work more like a Poisoner role. If you used your power on them when the bomb exploded, it would have saved them.  I was winging a lot of the details of powers interacting so hadn't fully decided on if protecting somebody the night the bomb was planted would also save them, but it never came up. Aside from Vivet stopping Yasei's kill on N1, and the weird situation with Makaela, scum avoided ever hitting a protection or getting spotted by tracker/watcher.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,479 Transcendent
    edited November 2017
    Sidd said:
    You are right, Vigilante is a town role, but you know what a vigilante does? They kill people. You know what scum does? They kill people. Two different roles that can perform the same power? Say it ain't so!

    You know, kind of like the Investigator/Consigliere comparison. Scum doesn't get investigators, they get consigliere's, but for some reason, consigliere's can claim to be an investigator despite the fact that investigator is a town only role. Weird how that happens.

    By your argument, you can't claim a town only power with any sort of credibility but somehow investigator (a town only role) can be claimed and you even made that argument!

    Here's how I could have foreseen it going. 

    'Hey, I'm <insert safe claim name here> and I can kill people using <safe claim tool/power/whatever because Tremula's role reveal showed that you can use your safe claim's powers to give you credibility> so I'm a vigilante, instead of just a regular ol' scum killing people, like scum do.' 

    The flavor fit, the evidence that this was a possible fit, I'm not sure why you think your claim should have somehow been ironclad without any reason to doubt it just because you used the word 'Vigilante'
    So your argument now is mafia had a secondary kill not called Vigilante, which is fairly normal, but that having this secondary kill was enough for the mafia to assume the town didn't have a Vigilante, thus making Vigilante a safe bluff. You've completely lost me where the mafia can make the leap from "we have a secondary kill" to "bluff Vigilante, the town doesn't have one."

    That makes even less sense. I already explained why Vigilante is not a good mafia bluff unless they know the town doesn't have one. Your counter was I could know, because I could have the power named in my role like Tremula did. 

    You're disregarding the single most relevant point. The role name is important. I didn't give a vague kill people claim, I claimed the role itself. It's super simple. There are roles mafia can blindly claim, be vague, and play the odds. "I AM THE VIGILANTE," is not among them. If you pressure someone with a vote, and they claim vigilante, and no one says "Hey me too," and the town hasn't mass claimed yet, it's a pretty safe bet they aren't bluffing because the town probably has one. Ironclad? No. Extremely unlikely? Absolutely. 

    Going in circles at this point, so it is what it is. I maintain it was a terrible play. Agree to disagree
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  • ArixArix Member Posts: 1,036 Mythical
    @lehki can confirm my facepalming at getting a nontraditional doctor role twice in a row
  • ArixArix Member Posts: 1,036 Mythical
    And yeah I figured the bomb was a poison-type thing as well, but I wasn't completely sure
  • EssEss Member Posts: 155 Adept
    It was all down to a 50/50 for me at the end

    :(
  • SiddSidd Member Posts: 202 Capable
    Cyndarin said:
    So your argument now is mafia had a secondary kill not called Vigilante, which is fairly normal, but that having this secondary kill was enough for the mafia to assume the town didn't have a Vigilante, thus making Vigilante a safe bluff. You've completely lost me where the mafia can make the leap from "we have a secondary kill" to "bluff Vigilante, the town doesn't have one."

    That makes even less sense. I already explained why Vigilante is not a good mafia bluff unless they know the town doesn't have one. Your counter was I could know, because I could have the power named in my role like Tremula did. 

    You're disregarding the single most relevant point. The role name is important. I didn't give a vague kill people claim, I claimed the role itself. It's super simple. There are roles mafia can blindly claim, be vague, and play the odds. "I AM THE VIGILANTE," is not among them.

    Going in circles at this point, so it is what it is. I maintain it was a terrible play.

     It's not going in circles, you're just running into a wall of your own making that you can't seem to see past. 

    1) I never said or made any argument involving mafia having a secondary kill. I'm not sure where you are even getting this? In typical Lusternia mafia games, one member of the scum can kill one person every night. Any of them can typically do it, it isn't secondary, it's primary.  99% of the time, they all can do it, they all can kill, any night.  They may have additional kills, or special kills, sure, but typically, any scum member can perform a normal mundane night kill.

    2) As Dys already pointed out, if Die was a safe claim, you could have reasonably assumed he was a Vig. It could even be confirmed further if you have a power -like Tremula's- that played off of Die's flavor. Using this information, it would be easy to reasonably assume that town didn't have a vigilante, just like Tremula could have reasonably assumed they didn't have a role blocker.  This is the key part you are ignoring, this part makes your whole 'role name is important' argument baseless. If you were scum, you could have killed someone using the juju doll or whatever, and then been all 'hey look, I'm the vigilante and I killed so and so' 

    I really just don't see how you can't understand that you simply claiming that you were innocent wasn't enough to write you off as town. At the point you were lynched, everyone had made a claim about who they were, exactly zero of them had any counterclaim, and two of them were scum. I don't see why you would think you were special and your claim being 'vigilante' is somehow more credible than anyone else's especially considering Tremula's role reveal. The only person I was 100% sure about was Vivet, had Dys not died the previous night, I would have seriously considered her to be scum, just like she was thinking Arix and me were scum. Nobody's claim was ironclad.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,479 Transcendent
    edited December 2017
    Agree to disagree. Tremula could bluff roleblocker because she was named as a roleblocker verbatim. You're arguing about a scenario that never happened. I didn't hinge my defense by claiming to have killed someone, I even said I didn't kill anyone. Investigator is a good bluff, vigilante is not. Ushaara was mafia, I was not. Not a coincidence. 

    Feel free to bluff Vig next time you are mafia though.
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  • LehkiLehki Member Posts: 1,219 Fabled
    Post-game thoughts and rambles.

    So this was my first time running a mafia game, or really doing anything remotely like this? Was pretty nervous about it, but had a lot of fun with it and have definitely learned in the process.

    Going into it I had a few things in mind I wanted to try to do. I actually did want to try tipping the balance a little in mafia's favor, 'cus lot of you are very clever or very lucky at sniping scum. So I put the numbers at a spot where Town had a small margin of error for mislyches, and then threw in the SK to shorten the game even more, though you guys knocked her out before Yasei could cause trouble. Also considering the flavor consisted of a relatively small cast of characters, gave scum solid safe-claims to make so mass-claiming or looking at the flavor of powers/night PMs would not reveal much info. Was giggling when Tremula's role was revealed and there was an immediate response of "can't trust anybody's claims." Also chose to not include a town cop and instead go with Tracker/Watcher/Jailor, as getting caught by those are arguably a little easier to talk your way around then if a cop investigates you as scum. (Though an alternative I considered was giving town a cop, but giving scum a tailor/lawyer)

    Though Tremula's role was the only role that was that super explicit in it, Ushaara's Clubs Deuce role got Itchy because messing with hats fits both of them in flavor. Zitto's role probably had the hardest claim to make, but props to him for lynching Tremula to prove himself, and also the slow dieing fake claim he made up actually was the power I was going to give Doze if his role was included.

    With the 3rd parties, wanted to do little twists with them, so instead of a survivor I thought "what if they want somebody else to survive?" and found something similar on EpicMafia with the Angel, tweaked that a little to get Clover's role. Was a little sad Makaela didn't get to play it out more. With Yasei's role, the twist was more just the flavor of it, as The Handmaid is like a minor side character to these guys who already minor side characters to the main story. This was really only gonna be for me and whatever other Homestuck fans were playing.

    Speaking of that, it turned out the only 2 people really familiar with the flavor both ending up scum when roles were given out randomly. Was a little worried about that which is why I was specifying at the start that I was trying to keep the importance of flavor minimal. Had considered tweaking some people's roles, like not giving Yasei who seemed relatively new to Mafia the difficult SK role, but wasn't really sure the best way to handle that so just left it.

    I had a number of zany ideas for these characters, but I wanted to stick simpler and more traditional powers for this game, having not tried my hand at balancing mafia roles before. Stuff like Trace tracking what people did on the previous night, or Quarter's being limited in who he could swap with who. Or just giving two people the same role and saying one was from an alternate timeline. If I do do that other Homestuck themed game I'd been considering, you can expect some unusual roles in that one. :P

    The music was just a fun thing I wanted to add in since music's a big part of the Homestuck experience. They have entire albums dedicated to these minor side characters.  Hope at least some of you enjoyed them. If you didn't pick up on it, was using Felt songs for the Day Phases, and Midnight Crew for Night, and the Handmaid's theme whenever her role was revealed.

    I also had an idea of using Slick's mugshots/kill list from the comic as each death happened, crossing people's faces off as they died and had their role revealed, but was worried people would get confused by reading too much into who was shown on it since there weren't enough people for every character to be used, so opted not to do that. Think it would have been fun though.







  • SylandraSylandra Friend of Dog Member Posts: 4,298 Transcendent
    Zitto said:
    I am shocked to hear that the night two cluster was even more complicated than we thought. Sidd never let us land anything where we meant to early game. A lot of nighttime story coordination went to waste!
    You’re lucky I was dead, buddy! I had your number the moment Yasei flipped third party after you were suspiciously oh so sure he was Town. (Though tbf watching you kill me only confirmed that suspicion loool)

    Good game all around.

    Fyler said:
    Sylandra has a very signature (and somewhat twisted) sense of humor
  • ZittoZitto Member Posts: 251 Virtuoso
    Sylandra said:

    You’re lucky I was dead, buddy! I had your number the moment Yasei flipped third party after you were suspiciously oh so sure he was Town. (Though tbf watching you kill me only confirmed that suspicion loool)

    Dearest Internet Grandma,

    I am so sorry that "Kill Sylandra ASAP" is the Lusternia Mafia meta and that we embraced it. I felt legitimately bad about us making you the N1 target and it was even worse when D3 came around and I realized despite the all the best efforts of Sidd and Mak we managed to somehow accidentally bumble into murdering you anyway.
  • MakaelaMakaela Member Posts: 420 Adept
    I had a fgellling sylandra was in danger that night just nor how :<  Damn you Sidd xD was hilarious though. Can we sgare the night messages we got now?
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