Why no one plays Wiccans: a perspective

CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited March 2013 in Common Grounds
Wiccans have never been a hugely popular archetype since I started playing, but as the game population has spread out to the new guilds and organizations, Wiccans have really become the most under represented archetype in the game. There are several issues I have been pondering and debating regarding the current status of the Wiccan guilds and why they trend as unpopular.


I will point out the most obvious explanation, and probably the most superficial: there are only two wiccan guilds as opposed to 4 or 6 of every other archetype. Naturally, the population will be lower. This does not, however, explain the typically very low combatant percentage of the Wiccan population. Going back to Vadi as the Champion of SD and even further to Alacardael and Nienla, in the past 18 to 24 months, there has never been more than a single truly active SD combatant at any given time. The exception being right now with Nihta and myself, which is a fairly recent occurance. Moondancers, in my observation, have been even worse off, having large periods of time where they have no combatants at all, like the present.

Wiccans pretty much exist in the exact same state as they did 6 years ago when they were released save for choke being replaced, and various envoy reports. There have been no major updates or changes to wiccans since their release. The guilds are extremely dated, and offer no new mechanics save for a single skill, shadowtwist, to attract current fighters or new players. If you played a wiccan 4 years ago, you will find nothing new and interesting in the current guild. I will say this issue is not entirely unique, as Nihilists (save for deathmark) are pretty much the same guild they were when I started, save for some crucial buffs to their skills like balance loss on crucify that make them much more powerful PKers so they naturally attract more combatants. Which ties in with my next point...

Wiccans can be perceived as less powerful versions of guardians. Fae are four seconds slower than all other ents. They Lack the variety of nihilist and celestine pacts, and are much less powerful than Illuminati ents and Researcher gems. They can also be killed with regular critical hits. Toad is a less powerful version of Absolve and Wrack, both of which actually give credit to the caster, where as toads and rewards that come with a kill are rarely the Wiccan who is out 8 power. Snoefaassia is a less powerful version of carcer, and requires a -quest-. The best skills in totems have been turned into artifacts for every guild out there, with no benefit for wiccans for having the actual skills. All guardians have alternate solo and/or group kill methods, wiccans do not. Wisp is a much more limited version of beckon. Pooka no longer works through prismatic, both Nihilist and Illuminati dominates do. Wiccans have access to powerful defensive skills, but Celestines have better ones. They do not have access to tarot, which is universally the best tertiary for guardians due to its offensive and defensive flexibility. Wiccans have the smallest hindering capability with only vines and a few odds and ends like brownie. Other guilds have multiple writhe sources, better passive ent hindering, ectoplasm, etc. We can do more damage in many cases, but not always. Omen, meteor, inquisition, etc.

Wiccans have no unique skills. Night and Moon are shared with warriors. Wicca is shared with each other save for only 3 skills. Tertiaries are shared between cities and communes. Cities have access to "city only" tertiary with the very powerful and flexible tarot. There is no equivalent for Wiccans. Ecology was the counter for tarot for commune bards, but was not shared with wiccans. The unique identifying factors of Wiccan guilds are the lore and the RP they create themselves despite being rather generic in terms of skills. This may seem minor but I would like point out that mages have 2 archetype specific tertiaries, 2 (or soon to be 2) guild specific primaries, and an archetype specific secondary with phantasms. Warriors have somewhat of the same generic skill issue, but with 5 archetype specific specializations that are all unique, 3 tertiaries (2 for cities), and a unique secondary, they allow for a lot more variety. Every other guild has something, or multiple somethings, entirely unique to them. 


Bit of an old change, but DMP changes impacted wiccans far more than guardians and nothing was ever adjusted to compensate. Because of DMP scaling, what was once a major boon for wiccans is now much, much smaller. They are still tankier than a guardian generally speaking, but are easily outdone by telekinetic mages, tattoo monks, researcher passive healing, etc. The old selling point of wiccans being tanky casters is no longer uniquely true, and much less true than it was.



I've been sitting on this and letting it brew for a while. It's become an issue. It's become an issue that is almost universally recognized. An issue I'm getting extremely frustrated with. When it was announced that an "archetype that has received any attention is going to get something new" the first on most people's list was Wiccans, and among the last were mages and druids. Mages because they were just really good and already had a pile of unique toys, and druids because they had just received both allergies and shamanism less than a year before.

I know it's been touched on, in extremely vague and obscure ways, that something for Wiccans is coming down the pipe in the distant future. The point is we're only halfway through all this new druid/mage stuff and it's been many months since it all started,and the process is only getting slower. My old problem of no one wanting to play wiccan is now my current problem of still no one wanting to play wiccan, with really no foreseeable end in sight. The next 3, 6, 9 months are, more than likely, going to be exactly as they are now and have been for the 6 previous years. And to me that's kind of ridiculous considering the sheer overwhelming volume of special reports that have been seen by the admin. It's not that we haven't requested one, because I know I have for something as simple and warranted as a post choke deletion update. 

At this point I don't know what to do other than stop caring and block it out. To play with my rusty hot wheels while so many others drive around in their monster trucks with custom paint jobs. Or just quit and play another guild so I can stop being mad about it, and people will stop specifically asking me why choke was deleted, why we don't have a special report, or why we don't have any unique terts, much less any unique skills at all. It's not fun.

Sorry for rambling on about the plight of the Wiccans. Maybe I just want someone to acknowledge Wiccans are the red headed step children on lusternia, or that out of all the guilds, one of them is just not like the others.

edit: Disclaimer because I know it will be brought up...this is not a "SDs are underpowered" rant. For one, I think MDs are worse off, and while we aren't the most powerful guild in the game, I'm fairly happy with their current state. I just don't want to be a watered down version of someone else. I want a niche that isn't giving people my kills.
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Comments

  • Celina said:
    When it was announced that an "archetype that has received any attention is going to get something new" the first on most people's list was Wiccans, and among the last were mages and druids. Mages because they were just really good and already had a pile of unique toys, and druids because they had just received both allergies and shamanism less than a year before.

    I know it's been touched on, in extremely vague and obscure ways, that something for Wiccans is coming down the pipe in the distant future.
    Mages and plans for wicca are independent of one another. The one handling every aspect of the latter from design on up hoped to be done quite some time ago, but unfortunately keeps being slowed down by his/her real life. Hopefully it will be done soon, though.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Eventru said:
    Celina said:
    When it was announced that an "archetype that has received any attention is going to get something new" the first on most people's list was Wiccans, and among the last were mages and druids. Mages because they were just really good and already had a pile of unique toys, and druids because they had just received both allergies and shamanism less than a year before.

    I know it's been touched on, in extremely vague and obscure ways, that something for Wiccans is coming down the pipe in the distant future.
    Mages and plans for wicca are independent of one another. The one handling every aspect of the latter from design on up hoped to be done quite some time ago, but unfortunately keeps being slowed down by his/her real life. Hopefully it will be done soon, though.
    Which I can understand and certainly appreciate. Perhaps a misconception on my part that it was all from the same source. Unfortunately, the issues go unresolved. 
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  • edited March 2013
    Celina said:
    Eventru said:
    Celina said:
    When it was announced that an "archetype that has received any attention is going to get something new" the first on most people's list was Wiccans, and among the last were mages and druids. Mages because they were just really good and already had a pile of unique toys, and druids because they had just received both allergies and shamanism less than a year before.

    I know it's been touched on, in extremely vague and obscure ways, that something for Wiccans is coming down the pipe in the distant future.
    Mages and plans for wicca are independent of one another. The one handling every aspect of the latter from design on up hoped to be done quite some time ago, but unfortunately keeps being slowed down by his/her real life. Hopefully it will be done soon, though.
    Which I can understand and certainly appreciate. Perhaps a misconception on my part that it was all from the same source. Unfortunately, the issues go unresolved. 
    Any given person usually has but one project at a time - some people really wanted to have the stuff in the wings done, and some of it has been hinted at variously. Unfortunately, like I said - things don't always work out in life, and it gets in the way of things. Sorry. :(
  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk
    My three points to why Wiccans are worse off now

    1. Hexes was nerfed. (i have ideas!)

    2. Cosmic/Rituals >>>> Nature/Totems (only thing really good is the summon resistance)

    3. Tuek and Narsrim abused every little detail of Moondancers - Its hard to remember what exactly they did (since it was 6? years ago) but I do remember them never dying as Dwarven Moondancers, but when Narsrim went Celestine, he almost always died.
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Let me know about your hexes ideas. I put up a report and it got some harsh opposition so I pended it for later
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  • The problem with Hexes (and Runes) is that, as systems have evolved, single curable affliction attacks (even when stacked with passives) simply can't pressure or hinder effectively when tried and true curing orders can ensure that the most dangerous afflictions are the first to disappear. At best, attackers can try to stack afflictions reliant on a particular cure, but even this is unlikely to stick even until the attacker can regain balance. This is why we've seen a greater emphasis on passives and uncurables for the caster classes, and a greater emphasis on regeneration affs for physical classes. Unless a class can apply noticeable hindering effects while still pursing a kill, the class can't function in single combat (and any class can be useful in group combat).

    This is just an off the top of my head idea (and I've never played a Hexen), but maybe add a syntax in Hexes that allows the hexen to throw an already-drawn hex alongside another targeted hostile action (striking the same target) in exchange for, say, an extra .5 seconds of EQ to the longer of the two actions. This would allow the Hexen to apply hindering affs alongside their offense, or offensive affs alongside their hindering. The hexen would still need to draw hexes as normal, in exchange for this short balance increase.

    A similar syntax could be applied to Runes, albeit with a somewhat longer EQ increase, to account for not needing to draw the runes in combat.
  • Doesn't everyone think they're the red headed stepchild?

    (I say that I'm considered the red head stepchild a lot!)
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  • Not neccesarily. I mean, I do think finalsting is the red-headed stepchild for monks, but even I have to admit crunch gets it worse.

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Estarra said:
    Doesn't everyone think they're the red headed stepchild?

    (I say that I'm considered the red head stepchild a lot!)
    I hope not. They've all got guild unique skills, so I am claiming that trophy.
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  • I can agree with the lack of uniqueness with regards to the skillsets, and I'll say that twists, as much as I'm at war with the final twist, are not exactly an exciting mechanic.
    I will add that sleeplocks, which - especially for moondancers - are the best (only?) way to really secure a toading solo, are even more boring.

    Comparing powers of wiccans to those of guardian guilds doesn't really say much if you're not comparing to a single guild, but to whatever guild happens to trump the power you're referring to.
    I wouldn't mind deathsight giving credit to the toader, but it seems like a rather minor point to me, especially for the overall attractiveness of the guilds. (This was suggested in report 808, but since another solution got approved, I'm not sure if they didn't like the idea of the toader getting credit or if it was just dismissed because they decided to implement solution 2. Might wanna try for it again.)

    I support fleshing out more differences between the fae of the two guilds, and I would welcome a change away from the current tediousness of twists (reduce total number and/or make the initial twists more relevant, for instance) and the boredom of sleeplocks.
  • Celina said:
    Estarra said:
    Doesn't everyone think they're the red headed stepchild?

    (I say that I'm considered the red head stepchild a lot!)
    I hope not. They've all got guild unique skills, so I am claiming that trophy.


    You only get it cause druids finally got a unique one.

    I still want to see the shared primaries between nature users fixed, cause that one is only getting worse if we get Ackleberry and Jojobo one day.

  • New on the block, but here's my 2 cents:

    Some people like having more than one character. I decided that I'd like to have two, one on each side of the game. With Titus doing his thing in Celest, I thought an alt in Glomdoring would be pretty groovy, considering Celina's a badass and it might rub off. I was going through the library here https://sites.google.com/site/xieltalnara/home browsing over skills to help me decide what guild to be a part of when I eventually make the character. I checked out Shadowdancer and it just looked dull. I think the idea behind it is very original and pretty darn cool, but I felt I could have more fun as a different class. I think Celina's post stands for itself, really. It spells out exactly what's wrong with the class and it would seem that she's correct on all counts.

    I doubt it's worth anything, but SD's have got my full support for some love from the Admin. It sucks that real life is tramping a rainy parade across the designer, so I definitely hope it gets tended to quickly.

    @Celina I think it would be a shame if you were forced out of the Guild you obviously care about deeply. Two years is a very long time to be part of an organization, but I guess the only thing you can do is ask yourself whether you're able to stick it out and hope for the best, or decide whether you'd be gaining more than losing by making the change to something else. Either way, I hope it works out for you.
  • Hmm, pardon my extremely newbish opinion - just reading over this thread entirely and I can only agree for this reason: I chose Wiccan/SD because I was more interested in the RP aspect, and if I wanted PvP I would have chosen something more sturdy. I think a lot might think the same, and its a bit upsetting to hear nothing of Wiccans has changed much (since the game was released, right?) and I can understand where @Celina's frustrations would stem from..

    tl;dr I'm probably not the only newbie to the game who, if not interested in pvp, picked this class, and that says a lot of the class in itself?
  • I can't say anything about the combat effectiveness, soaking as an influencer, but from an RP standpoint...
    The Wicca guilds might not be so popular because, when making your character, you can either be...

    Badass demon summoner, forging ties with hell itself and making pacts of damnation
    Priest of such holiness and power that the highest of angels answer your call
    A tender of forest/nature spirits, at whose command pixies and leprechauns spring forth
    The Necromentate's mind opens to you, and a grotesque, demonic figure appears in your mind's eye, screaming in torment:
    "THE DEMON LORDS CAN NEVER TRULY BE KILLED - GREAT IS THEIR POWER."


    You shock a platinum-coloured geomycus with tales of terror bestowed on villages who don't follow Magnagora.
    A platinum-coloured geomycus slaps her knee and declares that, by the gods, Ptoma Hive should follow the Grand Empire of Magnagora after all!
    Shouts rise up from Ptoma Hive, as its denizens loudly pledge themselves to the Grand Empire of Magnagora.

  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning **
    I quite like the Shadowdancers' roleplay, that's the sole reason I have one to begin with. Moondancers, on the other hand, are a little too cliche for my tastes.
    Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."

    -

    With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
  • edited March 2013
    Moonie RP is pretty cool potentialwise, but it doesn't really get explored that much nowadays. Most seem to go for the happy cheery sparkles approach. If there were more people playing wiccans, I'd think to guildhop back over and give it another go methinks.

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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
     
    Eritheyl said:
    I quite like the Shadowdancers' roleplay, that's the sole reason I have one to begin with. Moondancers, on the other hand, are a little too cliche for my tastes.
    I love SD RP, but I love what the players have made SD RP. The monarchy and zealous faith thing is player driven, there's nothing lore wise about it. It's just awkward to be all "We are the chosen of Mother Night, we are blessed with her gifts and her blessings! Oh..yeah that ugly orc guy over there waving a sword around is too but...uh...LOOK AT MY POOKA. Oh god you newbie kicked it, and it died."
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  • I'm going to stick my oar in here.

    Firstly, Celina - I want to fix wiccans as much as you do, and have my fair share of ideas on little things, but to be honest we should probably be looking at putting our heads together to get a solution that works for both guilds.

    Secondly, the Moondancers have the facility to  be very harsh, RPwise. If you want that sort of thing, talk to Laysus. He is occasionally a bit soft with the youngsters, but has all the vitriol the rest of the time. You'll also find that a lot of the older Moondancers do have that sort of dual aspect, they'll be nice and friendly to people a lot of the time, but tend to have their pet subjects for getting vicious about. 

    Thirdly, Moondancers do have a couple of combatants. Tredian's good, and when I finally get my system finished I'll be leaping back in again >.< I'm generally willing to leap in front of things and die if I have to, but at the moment that circumstance hasn't come up, so Laysus is being a bit more circumspect.
    Please note: I deliberately play a very flawed character. Just because he says or does something, does not mean I agree with it. He's a bit of a <censored> really
  • Well, yeah, the Moondancers have lots of darker stuff to them, and it gets ignored a lot of the time. Most of it is punitive in nature, which there isn't a call for too often. But what really gives the the Moonies their bad rap is the people who make cutesy alts thinking that's how the guild is. You never see any of the full members acting like that (well, in most cases)
    The Necromentate's mind opens to you, and a grotesque, demonic figure appears in your mind's eye, screaming in torment:
    "THE DEMON LORDS CAN NEVER TRULY BE KILLED - GREAT IS THEIR POWER."


    You shock a platinum-coloured geomycus with tales of terror bestowed on villages who don't follow Magnagora.
    A platinum-coloured geomycus slaps her knee and declares that, by the gods, Ptoma Hive should follow the Grand Empire of Magnagora after all!
    Shouts rise up from Ptoma Hive, as its denizens loudly pledge themselves to the Grand Empire of Magnagora.

  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning **
    I wasn't implying anything about the cutesy snugglefest, that's a problem across the board with more than just the Moondancers. I just personally don't find the theme very fun. That's all!
    Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."

    -

    With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
  • A bit more >.>

    Can't work out how to work the quote bit properly on this, so celina's bits are in italics :D


    "Wiccans have never been a hugely popular archetype since I started playing, but as the game population has spread out to the new guilds and organizations, Wiccans have really become the most under represented archetype in the game. There are several issues I have been pondering and debating regarding the current status of the Wiccan guilds and why they trend as unpopular."

    Just to note - they were at one point a very popular archetype - for a fair while after the start of the game, the Moondancers had a permanent position at the top of topguilds, huge membership, and so on - it dropped off with the release of glom (for example, we lost something like 2/3 of our secretaries to that), then more as the monk and bard archetypes were released.

    "Wiccans pretty much exist in the exact same state as they did 6 years ago when they were released save for choke being replaced, and various envoy reports. There have been no major updates or changes to wiccans since their release. The guilds are extremely dated, and offer no new mechanics save for a single skill, shadowtwist, to attract current fighters or new players. If you played a wiccan 4 years ago, you will find nothing new and interesting in the current guild. I will say this issue is not entirely unique, as Nihilists (save for deathmark) are pretty much the same guild they were when I started, save for some crucial buffs to their skills like balance loss on crucify that make them much more powerful PKers so they naturally attract more combatants. Which ties in with my next point..."

    I can't argue with this. The only real changes were nerfs (to willowisp, flow, etc), and the few frantic changes (lash swapped with succumb, Moon Shine altered) to try and make what we had more workable - but in the long run, nothing really got better, just changed a little, and never boosted because (as I recall) in the early days we were often viewed as hugely powerful with rage covens, wisping (before it got nerfed into the ground), pre-nerf flow, and so on.

    "Wiccans can be perceived as less powerful versions of guardians. Fae are four seconds slower than all other ents. They Lack the variety of nihilist and celestine pacts, and are much less powerful than Illuminati ents and Researcher gems. They can also be killed with regular critical hits. Toad is a less powerful version of Absolve and Wrack, both of which actually give credit to the caster, where as toads and rewards that come with a kill are rarely the Wiccan who is out 8 power. Snoefaassia is a less powerful version of carcer, and requires a -quest-. The best skills in totems have been turned into artifacts for every guild out there, with no benefit for wiccans for having the actual skills. All guardians have alternate solo and/or group kill methods, wiccans do not. Wisp is a much more limited version of beckon. Pooka no longer works through prismatic, both Nihilist and Illuminati dominates do. Wiccans have access to powerful defensive skills, but Celestines have better ones. They do not have access to tarot, which is universally the best tertiary for guardians due to its offensive and defensive flexibility. Wiccans have the smallest hindering capability with only vines and a few odds and ends like brownie. Other guilds have multiple writhe sources, better passive ent hindering, ectoplasm, etc. We can do more damage in many cases, but not always. Omen, meteor, inquisition, etc.

    Wiccans have no unique skills. Night and Moon are shared with warriors. Wicca is shared with each other save for only 3 skills. Tertiaries are shared between cities and communes. Cities have access to "city only" tertiary with the very powerful and flexible tarot. There is no equivalent for Wiccans. Ecology was the counter for tarot for commune bards, but was not shared with wiccans. The unique identifying factors of Wiccan guilds are the lore and the RP they create themselves despite being rather generic in terms of skills. This may seem minor but I would like point out that mages have 2 archetype specific tertiaries, 2 (or soon to be 2) guild specific primaries, and an archetype specific secondary with phantasms. Warriors have somewhat of the same generic skill issue, but with 5 archetype specific specializations that are all unique, 3 tertiaries (2 for cities), and a unique secondary, they allow for a lot more variety. Every other guild has something, or multiple somethings, entirely unique to them."


    Again, can't argue with that - it'd be nice if the person who did the toadcurse got the credit for the kill, but I imagine that would be a bit of a nightmare to implement. And at least toads aren't as tanky as they used to be. And I do feel that while we're less powerful than guardians, that we're often more flavourful.

    "I know it's been touched on, in extremely vague and obscure ways, that something for Wiccans is coming down the pipe in the distant future. The point is we're only halfway through all this new druid/mage stuff and it's been many months since it all started,and the process is only getting slower. My old problem of no one wanting to play wiccan is now my current problem of still no one wanting to play wiccan, with really no foreseeable end in sight. The next 3, 6, 9 months are, more than likely, going to be exactly as they are now and have been for the 6 previous years. And to me that's kind of ridiculous considering the sheer overwhelming volume of special reports that have been seen by the admin. It's not that we haven't requested one, because I know I have for something as simple and warranted as a post choke deletion update. "

    I often feel similarly to this - when I took over from Rastor as Envoy again it struck me that a lot of the reputation we used to have for survivability and so on is gone, and has been for a while - it's the first thing I've been looking at fixing. I appreciate that something new is coming, but quite frankly I'd love to see what we have fixed and on a par with everything else before we get a new primary or secondary that means that people just don't use the old ones. I can look at Moon and see so many things that are just... not as good as they should be, or overcosted, or underpowered, and while it's within my means to push for a fix as Envoy, there's a lot that needs doing.
    Please note: I deliberately play a very flawed character. Just because he says or does something, does not mean I agree with it. He's a bit of a <censored> really
  • Regardless of getting a new primary or not, I think expanding more in wicca as it currently exists would help. Right now wicca is just... pretty much all fae and fae related skills (channels, faereturn). Other than that, it's just broom and toadcurse. If Night Wiccan and Moon Wiccan can be differentiated further, then this would also help make SDs and MDs stand further apart from each other.

    This would also avoid buffing warriors further since it won't add things to totems Night and Moon.

    The problem is just figuring out what to put in there.

  • Ragniliff said:
    Right now wicca is just... pretty much all fae and fae related skills (channels, faereturn). Other than that, it's just broom and toadcurse. If Night Wiccan and Moon Wiccan can be differentiated further, then this would also help make SDs and MDs stand further apart from each other.

    The same can, for the most part, be said about Celestialism and Nihilism (when you replace fae with angels/demons). Even the investments are, with a few prominent exceptions, largely the same, and while the skillsets are fairly bland, they never felt like almost exact copies of each other to me (which they pretty much are, though). That's why I think that giving the two wiccan skillsets a different feeling can be achieved by as little as giving (some of) the fae interesting new, unique names, descriptions and attack/passive/faecall etc. emotes. Mechanically, the change could be fairly minor.
  • edited March 2013
    While not to speak to anything else, I will say this, in hopes of it maybe helping guide your conversation and something usable pops up:

    Part of the reason Wicca and Druids share a primary is because, thematically, they are very similar across communes. Druids are Druids are Druids, so to speak - the differentiation lies beyond the demesne.

    It's unique insofar as you don't see that with the higher planes - though if another city drew on Water or Celestia, you'ld see a lot more similarity between skills (and maybe even shared primaries like that, with some differentiation).

    Not to say it wouldn't be nice to see more moon/Shadowdancer differentiation on some levels (and that more isn't possible), but only that this is why there were never new Druid or Wicca primary specs added in lieu of Druidry and Wicca for Glomdoring. They were never intended to be so divergent as the cities - all of their power comes from the same source (the fae) and shares a lot of its inner nature with the other. While thematically they are different, some of that has, admittedly, been whittled away at due to player upset and concerns (like how Night and the Glomdoring interact with the Faethorn). By their own request they became that "dark guardian" of the Fae, in lieu of the forest contrary to but deeply wanting to control them. Not to say those changes were bad (nor good), merely pointing out where some of that thematic departure occurred.

    I'm not really sure what you want in terms of "differentiating" the two types of Wicca - like I said, they're Wicca and due to the nature of Wicca they share so many similarities. That difference is in the deeper level (Night/Moon totem skills), and in their lore and roleplay.

    While not saying we will or we won't, I think a large part of Wicca's purpose and them was that it was all about their relationship with the fae. Doesn't mean it can't be expanded on, but it would certainly fall in that same range.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    For the record, cosmetically changing the fae (which has already been done, SD fae are now "bound in shadows") is about the smallest drop in the proverbial bucket you can make.

    My general steps to fixing the issues raised would be
    1) A Wicca unique tertiary like faetongue or something closely linked with them. Alternatively, open tarot to Wiccans. Big gap in disparity fixed very easily and the focus can on wicca and night/moon.

    2) Split Wicca off into Night and Moon fae. Squonks and the like. Fae are directly linked to a specific plant, and plants that are found in Glom are not the same as the plants found in Seren.

    3) Split Wiccans from Warriors. Moon/Night should be more powerful and more defining for Wiccans.

    4) Special reports for Night and Moon. They are Lusternian antiques, and while I can be open minded and understanding to a point about the delay on the Wiccan stuff, where my patience runs dry is the refusal to special report Night after choke was deleted. Even without them, both need them. Covens are dated, DMP is not as valuable as it was. Affliction potential is practically non existent. Hindering is poor. Envoys have not been able to keep pace with all the new guilds, which all get special reports to keep them balanced.

    I can recall, off the top of my head, 15 or more special reports in recent years for all sorts of things, including guilds that needed special reports like Cantors, Spiritsingers, and druids. There's just no reason to keep denying Wiccans an opportunity. To give them a platform that is 6 years in the making and say "Go wild, fix your guilds."

    You told me to fix SDs through envoys. I've tried. I've been working on it for over 6 months. But I can't buff Night without buffing warriors, who are in generally accepted good place. I can't buff or alter a tertiary without screwing with guardians. All I have is Wicca, a bunch of one hit kill, slow, single target passives. Most of which are kind of pointless or severely situational. You can delete sylphs, sprites, barghests, slaughs, nymphs, and leprechauns, half my passives, and it would have virtually no consequence on how my guild functions. The problem with fae, save 2 or 3 like redcap/banshee and maybe the pooka is that it's just a lot of filler. They don't work towards any defined goal. They don't hinder or damage or afflict. It's just a bunch of random things thrown together. I can know you off balance for 1 second, steal 50 gold, maybe trip you if you don't use the pogo that was stolen from my skillset or fly or tumble or kick it to death, regen a little bit of mana, and push you out of the trees and piss off the druid.  It's a hodgepodge. Our "defining" skillset is just kind of a mess.


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  • Eventru said:
    While not to speak to anything else, I will say this, in hopes of it maybe helping guide your conversation and something usable pops up: Part of the reason Wicca and Druids share a primary is because, thematically, they are very similar across communes. Druids are Druids are Druids, so to speak - the differentiation lies beyond the demesne. It's unique insofar as you don't see that with the higher planes - though if another city drew on Water or Celestia, you'ld see a lot more similarity between skills (and maybe even shared primaries like that, with some differentiation). Not to say it wouldn't be nice to see more moon/Shadowdancer differentiation on some levels (and that more isn't possible), but only that this is why there were never new Druid or Wicca primary specs added in lieu of Druidry and Wicca for Glomdoring. They were never intended to be so divergent as the cities - all of their power comes from the same source (the fae) and shares a lot of its inner nature with the other. While thematically they are different, some of that has, admittedly, been whittled away at due to player upset and concerns (like how Night and the Glomdoring interact with the Faethorn). By their own request they became that "dark guardian" of the Fae, in lieu of the forest contrary to but deeply wanting to control them. Not to say those changes were bad (nor good), merely pointing out where some of that thematic departure occurred. I'm not really sure what you want in terms of "differentiating" the two types of Wicca - like I said, they're Wicca and due to the nature of Wicca they share so many similarities. That difference is in the deeper level (Night/Moon totem skills), and in their lore and roleplay. While not saying we will or we won't, I think a large part of Wicca's purpose and them was that it was all about their relationship with the fae. Doesn't mean it can't be expanded on, but it would certainly fall in that same range.

    I feel that this has grown into a rather consistent complaint though, it has cropped up for years and, for druids at least, I remember times where the need to have cascading reports with agreements from both sides was raised and issues cropped up because somehow changing sap would eventually impact aquamancers. 

    I think the main issue here is actually the reverse, the other games do have skills that are shared across different classes and classes that are shared across different guilds. However, in Lusternia the norm is for all guilds to have either an entirely unique primary spec (or two) or to at least have a collection of unique abilities, sorry warriors :/. This design decision seems like it would be the root of the expectation that every guild has its own unique skill, so getting what could be viewed as the inferior and restrictive choice between those two is obviously going to cause ongoing frustrations.

    Plus, I'd absolutely love to see the Sundancers be as different from the Moondancers as the Illuminati are from the Celestines in terms of skills at the very least. I want to see how wildly their interactions with the fae vary given the state of Sun since the elder wars, I would ultimately find it far more interesting if the skills were distinct skills that had heavy similarities. I.E Celestialism and Nihilism, which have been mentioned before as initially being almost duplicates with different messages which resulted in the expectation that this would be the shape Harmonics and Transmology would take.

    So, if Moon Wicca was more based around the concept of the Seelie court the fae and abilities might be more jovial and the like but with great power to use on those who offend them or earn their favor (a joke but I giggled at the idea of the Moondancers having a meter for how offended they are by their target enhancing and enabling abilities). Where as Night Wicca being based around the Unseelie could be presented as more malevolent, the fae might be darker, the powers more sinister. 

    Ultimately, there could be a wider range of fae available between the two skills, some shared, some not, but beyond just the fae perhaps the Wiccans could learn the "tricks" and "games" of the fae. Learning not just to summon the fae but their secrets too (similar to how about a third of Celestialism are skills relating to Celestia rather than the companion). In the future leading to four guilds who all draw their power from the fae, all learning to summon an entourage of fae, how to play their games, and how to perform their tricks but primarily gaining different abilities from this because each guild values different things.



    As a side note for @Veyrzhul, I think it was mentioned once that the summon messages for the fae could be changed, it was more a matter of having something for them to be changed to, I had some rough ideas somewhere for that if I can find them.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Estarra said:
    Doesn't everyone think they're the red headed stepchild?

    (I say that I'm considered the red head stepchild a lot!)
    I'm -everyone's- red headed stepchild.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    BTW Wiccan envoys can't currently buff fae due to the impression that such changes will be rejected due to future plans. It was a plan that was never mentioned, and one that has stalled indefinitely...so we're sitting on our hands without knowing a when or why.

    I'm glad we're getting new stuff sooner or later but, for the sake of Laysus and myself and our jobs, can we can some kind of time frame or clarification as to what we're allowed to touch in Wicca? If the only skillset we can really update without rubbing elbows with other guilds is the same skillset that is indefinitely suspended from changes...it gets kind of frustrating. If it's a month, great! We can hold off. If it's another 6 months down the road...that sucks.
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  • I hate to be a downer, but I wouldn't get my hopes up, Celina. It's pretty likely that the rest of the alternate mage/druid primaries will come out first, and I would expect at least a month between those; more if constant player complaints and special reports slow them down. Heck, Gaudi/Halli monks might be on the table before Wiccans. And honestly, I would expect that, if Wiccans do get a major overhaul, the admins will save it to use as a plot point as Ascension approaches again; that's just the kind of thing they tend to do.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    That may be true, but I hope all of this will at least flag some admin attention and maybe snowball into some actual changes, even if they start off small. I tried hard to approach this discussion rationally, and hope my reputation as a hothead doesn't over shadow the issues too much. Either way, the consensus seems to be that the facts are the facts, and the disparity has gotten to rather absurd levels of unfairness. At the end of the day all I can do is post my perspective, bolster it with opinions, and ask for an avenue to pursue change that is widely acknowledged as needed.

    Whether the admin will allow it, or have the resources for it right now is another discussion. On a personal level, I will most likely deadline my time with the SDs for a couple months and barring any news or substantive feedback, just cut my losses and play harb again or something. If I'm logging in to stress over envoys and wiccan issues, and barely actually playing, it's a sign to move on and get back to enjoying the game for what it is. A game. Do what you can, hope someone down the road will eventually reap the benefits.
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