Why no one plays Wiccans: a perspective

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  • Celina said:
    BTW Wiccan envoys can't currently buff fae due to the impression that such changes will be rejected due to future plans. It was a plan that was never mentioned, and one that has stalled indefinitely...so we're sitting on our hands without knowing a when or why.
    Not sure where you got that impression that you can't give reports on fae!

    (Can't give any timetables on any possible future release, fyi.)
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Estarra said:
    Celina said:
    BTW Wiccan envoys can't currently buff fae due to the impression that such changes will be rejected due to future plans. It was a plan that was never mentioned, and one that has stalled indefinitely...so we're sitting on our hands without knowing a when or why.
    Not sure where you got that impression that you can't give reports on fae!

    (Can't give any timetables on any possible future release, fyi.)
    Report 1002 for a crone buff. 

    Furies' Decision:We are choosing not to act on this report for the time being as it conflicts with some of our plans. We may review this again at a later date.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited March 2013
    Yeah. That leaves envoys in a sticky spot, do they waste their time on reports that will conflict with plans they have no way to know anything about? Decisions that come back 'We will/may review this at a later date' translate to 'We agree and may like these solutions, but you'll need to submit an identical report at a later date, using two slots for this report'. 

    EDIT: I'm also never sure if Estarra is being subtly sarcastic a la Eventru. I hope I'm not reading something seriously that I'm not meant to be.
  • Celina said:
    Estarra said:
    Celina said:
    BTW Wiccan envoys can't currently buff fae due to the impression that such changes will be rejected due to future plans. It was a plan that was never mentioned, and one that has stalled indefinitely...so we're sitting on our hands without knowing a when or why.
    Not sure where you got that impression that you can't give reports on fae!

    (Can't give any timetables on any possible future release, fyi.)
    Report 1002 for a crone buff. 

    Furies' Decision:We are choosing not to act on this report for the time being as it conflicts with some of our plans. We may review this again at a later date.
    That right there? That sucks.
  • It would be great to see some more Fae lore and such that would bring about some differentiation between the two wiccan guilds a bit more.  Maybe even include a bigger differentiation in druidry along with this (druid staff) to note the change to the forests.

    There could be some great RP there, and it would be very interesting.  Maybe have it to where some of the Fae rebel against one forest or the other, and in order to maintain the balance of the forests, new fae come forth.  Or something.  Would be very interesting to see more forest-y related stuffs.

  • Celina said:
    Estarra said:
    Celina said:
    BTW Wiccan envoys can't currently buff fae due to the impression that such changes will be rejected due to future plans. It was a plan that was never mentioned, and one that has stalled indefinitely...so we're sitting on our hands without knowing a when or why.
    Not sure where you got that impression that you can't give reports on fae!

    (Can't give any timetables on any possible future release, fyi.)
    Report 1002 for a crone buff. 

    Furies' Decision:We are choosing not to act on this report for the time being as it conflicts with some of our plans. We may review this again at a later date.
    We probably shouldn't have said that as it was confusing, though it was part of our inner discussion. There were other concerns with Report 1002, namely having double afflictions and the afflictions suggested (i.e., slickness and anorexia). It seemed to be overreaching. In any event, regarding the upcoming plans, the issue wasn't fae but with increasing the number of afflictions a wiccan gives (i.e., double afflictions). As said, we also did not like the afflictions suggested. Sorry for the confusion.

    Fae reports are fine.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Well apparently all this discussion and thought was for naught.

    Dramaturgy is kind of a punch in the gut, and I'm just exasperated and out of ideas. 
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  • Even though I am happy for the bards, I am pretty depressed for us Wiccans :(.
  • I don't think the admins wrote up Draumaturgy between the writing of this thread and the release (hence, I don't think Draumaturgy was released specifically to spite wiccans).
    If it's broken, break it some more.
  • Dramaturgy is fuelled by angsty wiccan tears.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Buttery ones.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • It is a little sting with recent discussions, but yes, what they all said.  I wouldn't be surprised if Wiccans had a really big release coming soon though.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Troll elsewhere, you two. There are legitimate concern regarding concern regarding Wiccan balance issues and population and if you aren't contributing, go away.
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  • Well look at it this way, now the people who were working on dramaturgy have free time for other projects......

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  • Delete wiccans.

    Sorry, couldn't help it.  There was a lot of 'delete monks and bards' not so very long ago.

    To be fair, I do agree that wiccans lack uniqueness in their skillsets.  But more importantly, I think, is the need for variety.  I've always been a fan of the notion that a guild should have multiple viable kill methods.

  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Eldanien said:
    Delete wiccans.

    Sorry, couldn't help it.  There was a lot of 'delete monks and bards' not so very long ago.

    To be fair, I do agree that wiccans lack uniqueness in their skillsets.  But more importantly, I think, is the need for variety.  I've always been a fan of the notion that a guild should have multiple viable kill methods.
    I know this is not the place, but... have a look at warriors then, too? And sorry, Celina... I was kind of hoping it was our tree thing myself when I heard the ticking... was disappointed too. Want to go get drunk somewhere and share our woes?
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.

    Yes, I will bring the whiskey.

     

    And you know, players mocking the situation is fine. It's the forums, it's not a big deal and I don't give it a second look. However, mocking remarks from admin in game and the same admin liking mocking comments on forums over an issue some of have a genuine concern for is inappropriate. This isn't a "wiccans suck, buttery tears, I want OP skillz," thing. Wiccans, just like every guild, represent an immeasurable time investment and to a lesser extent an monetary investment by other admin and more pointedly, many players both past and present. People put a lot of work into their guilds to make them appealing and healthy so that they prosper and engage new players. And when there is a noted, widely accepted disparity of effort and time over several years, it's not really encouraging to be mocked for caring about your personal time that you spent invested in a guild. When all people are asking for is a fair assessment and fair return of investment that every other guild has enjoyed...I don't know. Maybe I take it too personally, but it's 2 RL years of my personal time I spent as GC, GM, and envoy working to make things better, and often wondering what I did or am doing wrong to cause low population issues. So it is kind of personal, even if I don't want it to be.

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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    Heh, at least you know you're getting something new sometime this year that could make a major change to the way you play.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Yeah, that's a giant maybe.
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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    Hey, worse case scenario is it takes until early next year, but I'm sincerely doubting that. They already said you're getting something interesting, so just hold tight!
  • edited March 2013

    I completely agree that wiccans need something, and I meant nothing by my comment.  I'm all for more new things for everyone, and Wiccans probably need it the most at this point.

    And as a note, I've been pushing for a new unique tert for bards since forever ago.

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Glamours was already a unique tert. >:(
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  • edited March 2013
    Celina said:

    Yes, I will bring the whiskey.

     

    And you know, players mocking the situation is fine. It's the forums, it's not a big deal and I don't give it a second look. However, mocking remarks from admin in game and the same admin liking mocking comments on forums over an issue some of have a genuine concern for is inappropriate.

    It wasn't mocking, it was teasing - pretty light-hearted, at that. The very same teasing I give every other envoy at every opportunity that arises.  Re the post I up'd, the remark made me chuckle - and was obviously intended as an amused thought versus a scournful, demeaning or otherwise derisive post - so I 'like'd it or whichever I pressed. Calm down.

    Had it been genuine mockery, I probably would've beaten you to the punch, edited the post and warned them. Come on now. And you know as well as I, none of that is any comment on the validity or invalidity of your points, opinions or perceptions.

    As a postscript: Quite honestly, it'd probably help if you quit with the implicit accusations of bias and similar statements that suggest the admin do not care or anything of or akin to that nature - there is little more irritating than accusations of bias for what amounts to being a good patron, working with what you're familiar with, or because of perceived bias (when in fact you've spent the past however long working on an area, event or project for the 'opposing' party due to their lack of a patron, presence, or what have you). Honestly, I don't even want to engage you anymore, as it feels like anything I say or do will be misperceived. I even begin to wonder if anything will ever please you, or if anything that doesn't have 'Wicca' tattooed on its forehead will be received as a personal slight.

    I know you've worked quite hard to improve Shadowdancers and Wicca, and I've watched your reports come in, month after month. You usually get what you ask for, too. I think you need to take a deep breath, though, and calm down. People have spent a terribly long time working on things to come (chemancy, 'wicca stuff', and other things), and it's just disheartening to see them torn apart because it doesn't have 'Wicca' stamped on it. I'm sorry it's taking so long, but I'm pretty tired of trying to explain 'things don't work that way' to you. I can't count how many times you've been told, on the forums and on envoys, that projects operate independently of one another, that Dramaturgy and Chemantics are their own unique projects by complete individuals who have nothing to do with, and no affect on the rate of, other projects. It's to the point people regret taking on big tasks like designing things for certain archetypes, because skill design, coding and testing isn't exactly easy - particularly when it's someone's first 'rodeo', as it were. And you haven't made it any easier on them.

    So, for their sake - and your own - calm down.
  • Celina said:
    Glamours was already a unique tert. >:(

    A unique half of a tert.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Eventru said:
    Celina said:

    Yes, I will bring the whiskey.

     

    And you know, players mocking the situation is fine. It's the forums, it's not a big deal and I don't give it a second look. However, mocking remarks from admin in game and the same admin liking mocking comments on forums over an issue some of have a genuine concern for is inappropriate.

    It wasn't mocking, it was teasing - pretty light-hearted, at that. The very same teasing I give every other envoy at every opportunity that arises.  Re the post I up'd, the remark made me chuckle - and was obviously intended as an amused thought versus a scournful, demeaning or otherwise derisive post - so I 'like'd it or whichever I pressed. Calm down.

    Had it been genuine mockery, I probably would've beaten you to the punch, edited the post and warned them. Come on now. And you know as well as I, none of that is any comment on the validity or invalidity of your points, opinions or perceptions.

    As a postscript: Quite honestly, it'd probably help if you quit with the implicit accusations of bias and similar statements that suggest the admin do not care or anything of or akin to that nature - there is little more irritating than accusations of bias for what amounts to being a good patron, working with what you're familiar with, or because of perceived bias (when in fact you've spent the past however long working on an area, event or project for the 'opposing' party due to their lack of a patron, presence, or what have you). Honestly, I don't even want to engage you anymore, as it feels like anything I say or do will be misperceived. I even begin to wonder if anything will ever please you, or if anything that doesn't have 'Wicca' tattooed on its forehead will be received as a personal slight.

    I know you've worked quite hard to improve Shadowdancers and Wicca, and I've watched your reports come in, month after month. You usually get what you ask for, too. I think you need to take a deep breath, though, and calm down. People have spent a terribly long time working on things to come (chemancy, 'wicca stuff', and other things), and it's just disheartening to see them torn apart because it doesn't have 'Wicca' stamped on it. I'm sorry it's taking so long, but I'm pretty tired of trying to explain 'things don't work that way' to you. I can't count how many times you've been told, on the forums and on envoys, that projects operate independently of one another, that Dramaturgy and Chemantics are their own unique projects by complete individuals who have nothing to do with, and no affect on the rate of, other projects. It's to the point people regret taking on big tasks like designing things for certain archetypes, because skill design, coding and testing isn't exactly easy - particularly when it's someone's first 'rodeo', as it were. And you haven't made it any easier on them.

    So, for their sake - and your own - calm down.

    I'm quite calm. Irritated and calm are not mutually exclusive.

     

    I have never once accused any admin of bias, and don't appreciate that sort of accusation. Nor have I criticized a specific admin. I have not even mentioned the particular admin who is in charge of the mystery wiccan project, or their delay, other than a statement of understanding of ooc issues. I get it, and I don't know how to tell you that while the wiccan report or whatever it is might be involved in this issue, it is not the issue. Unless this mystery wicca project covers everything in the OP, a tall order, I'm not sure how to make it more clear that they are not one in the same. So please stop trying to misconstrue my statements and concerns as an attack on said admin. It's unfair and factually false. This is a problem that goes higher up the chain, that resources have never been spent on this before now. That no special reports have been granted despite justified requests since choke, the cornerstone skill, was removed. 

    My reports are approved because, or so I like to think, because they are small tweaks that I have thought through carefully and weighed against other options, and generally get support from other envoys.. Not some gift or concession from the admin. Reports have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Everyone gets reports, and the onus is always the envoy to make their case and balance accordingly.

     

    It's not an issue of bias, it's an issue of poor management and inequitable resources spent.

     

    And if I can't express concern, backed with actual arguments and legitimate points, without you turning this into "I don't even want to deal with you anymore. What do you mean vague answers and indefinite delays aren't enough for you. You're impossible to please!" well I suppose that really highlights the issue of communication. I, as a guild leader and envoy, would like to have something to tell the rare SD that shows up other than "I don't know," "Maybe?" and "hang in there!" Like I said, I probably do take it too personally, but hopefully you can understand how that can of puts me off.

    You can only twiddle your thumbs and hope for changes to come before you just throw up your hands. Try to see things from my side. It's not about the mystery wiccan whatever, it's about a convergance of issues and unanswered questions. How long are we supposed to wait and hinge what we do on something we know nothing about?

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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    And I, and the Wiccans and players that ask me about it, would probable settle for an acknowledgement of the problem and whether or not the project is back on track. Indefinite delays at an airport make people very grumpy. Sane applies here.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Same applies here. Sane might not.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    I'm just saying that frustration you feel because no answer you give is good enough? Yeah, I feel that too.
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  • You demand a tremendous amount of attention and give 0 love to admin.

    This seems like a recipe for disappointment.
    Take great care of yourselves and each other.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited March 2013
    "Yes, we're working on it and something definitive is being done, as soon as we do xyx other things first" is hardly a tremendous amount of attention, it's not even really action, it's just a statement explaining what's what.

     So, the guy working on this skillset has it tabled because of OOC reasons. Are there plans for someone else to pick the project up? What kind of project are we talking here, should people be wasting time/effort/reports on certain skillsets, or are there big changes in the works? Are the admin even on the same page as far as changes being needed or wanted?

     Even just yes or no answers could help to clear these issues up and would take exactly as much effort as writing any other post.
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