Saracen Combat & Utility System

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  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    Draylor said:
    Xenthos said:
    The script is also illegal as-is.  No disclaimer changes that.
    How so, mate?

    15.8 TRIGGERS, AUTOMATION, AND AUTO (AUTORAT, AUTOBASH ETC)

    Triggers and automation are allowed in most cases as long as they are not used
    for gaining gold or experience, whether you are AFK or not.
    
    What is not allowed?
    
    Auto ratting, auto weeviling, auto questing, auto bashing, auto aetherspace hunting (and auto pretty much everything else).
    
    1) that you automate via triggers, and
    2) that you use to gain gold or experience.
    
    If you set up a system that allows your character to bash, heal and move around to the point where you can fall asleep at your keyboard (or be in another window) and your character continues to bash and gain experience, then you are setting yourself up for permanent shrubbing--because everyone with such systems (if they don't immediately AFK) eventually succumbs through laziness or complacency. We suggest you immediately disable such systems.
    
    Automated play in any form is likely to constitute a violation of our rules. 
    Penalties will depend on the context. In extreme cases, a violation may be 
    punishable by shrubbing or banning.
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    edited May 2013
    "Walking in on someone who is AFK auto-bashing is not a "PvP opportunity,"

    That is completely and wholly open to interpretation, my friend. I am merely providing the tools to make such possible.

    Saracen Combat & Utility System: Undergoing rewrite. IRE-wide single system coming in due course.
    HTML game logging site: http://www.logsty.com (feedback@logsty.com)
    The answer to life, the universe, and everything: http://www.google.com
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,785 Transcendent
    Draylor said:
    Xenthos said:
    The script is also illegal as-is.  No disclaimer changes that.
    How so, mate?
    I already stated that.  The rule on automation is explicitly defined as: "If it lets you get up and walk away from your keyboard while it continues to generate experience and / or gold for you, it is illegal."

    That's why adding in 1 hotkey press to make it unleash bloody murder on the room fixes the entire issue.  The person needs to actually be there to tell it to go.  The system can then quite happily start walking on to the next room automatically, but there needs to be some human interaction in the process to actually start the killing (or influencing) process in each location.
    image
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    @Xenthos: Not sure what to add at this stage, pal. I have issued multiple times and have even chatted with the admin directly regarding this.


    Their take on this is, "Abuse it, and be shrubbed... Simple"

    Saracen Combat & Utility System: Undergoing rewrite. IRE-wide single system coming in due course.
    HTML game logging site: http://www.logsty.com (feedback@logsty.com)
    The answer to life, the universe, and everything: http://www.google.com
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    edited May 2013
    The problem is not how the code is presented, but rather how the user uses it.

    If you're gonna be a dumb arse and click the icon and just leave it... You :x deserved to get shrubbed.

    *shrug*
    Post edited by Eventru on

    Saracen Combat & Utility System: Undergoing rewrite. IRE-wide single system coming in due course.
    HTML game logging site: http://www.logsty.com (feedback@logsty.com)
    The answer to life, the universe, and everything: http://www.google.com
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,785 Transcendent
    Draylor said:
    @Xenthos: Not sure what to add at this stage, pal. I have issued multiple times and have even chatted with the admin directly regarding this.


    Their take on this is, "Abuse it, and be shrubbed... Simple"
    It's easy.  Add a hotkey.  Your customers won't get shrubbed, I won't have to harass them to ensure that they're actually at the keyboard, and it really is win/win.

    Pressing a button is really not a high burden at all; my bashers are all based off of hotkeys. :|
    image
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,785 Transcendent
    Draylor said:
    The problem is not how the code is presented, but rather how the user uses it.

    If you're gonna be a dumb arse and click the icon and just leave it... You fucking deserved to get shrubbed.

    *shrug*
    See, that's not customer satisfaction, to me. :P
    image
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    Suffice to say, and to those not in the know, "Yes, Saracen will -completely- autobash for you". (With absolutely no interaction).

    How you choose to use this capabiliity, however... Is totally up to you.

    Saracen Combat & Utility System: Undergoing rewrite. IRE-wide single system coming in due course.
    HTML game logging site: http://www.logsty.com (feedback@logsty.com)
    The answer to life, the universe, and everything: http://www.google.com
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    "Hey, here's a system that I've written that's illegal. It's nice, it's shiny, it's there, but it's not my fault if you use it in the way I programmed it to work".
    image
  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,652 Transcendent
    It's not illegal to have a genrunner, cupcake. It's illegal to use it and not be paying attention. If draylor gives someone a gun for his birthday, it's not his fault if said person has a midlife crisis and robs a bank with it a week later.
    If I'm not good enough for Lusternia, then it is no longer good enough for me.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    Actually...

    Triggers and automation are allowed in most cases as long as they are not used for gaining gold or experience, whether you are AFK or not.

    So even if you're sitting there and paying attention, they are, in fact, illegal. Will they catch you if you're sitting there watching it? Probably not. That doesn't make it allowed though.
    image
  • DysDys Member Posts: 489 Gifted
    I'd buy this for the other tools, there's plenty listed that will be great. I wouldn't use the autobashing. Isn't that shrubbable anyway? M&m's do queue and triggers to get my beast to break shields are plenty.

    Neat tools and a gui make a big difference to me. I've been thinking about how to do a little picture window that changes depending on weather and terrain. There must be a reasonable way to do that without having to draw 4000 pictures.
  • CaeruloCaerulo Member Posts: 102 Apprentice
    Please don't bring in gun debate. I'm not even American, and I'm sick of it already.

    Draylor, I believe it is better customer service if your system protects them from shrubbing. You are basically putting a button in your system that says 'Shrub me'.
    Creating scripts and systems that provide ease of use and quality of life is good, and you can still do it. Simply including an additional step for your autobasher allows you to fulfill your goal, AND prevents yours users from being shrubbed. That's a win/win situation.
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    "Hey, here's a system that I've written that's illegal. It's nice, it's shiny, it's there, but it's not my fault if you use it in the way I programmed it to work".

    Eh? And how is that the case?

    Saracen Combat & Utility System: Undergoing rewrite. IRE-wide single system coming in due course.
    HTML game logging site: http://www.logsty.com (feedback@logsty.com)
    The answer to life, the universe, and everything: http://www.google.com
  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,652 Transcendent
    Also not sure how this is any different from sitting in a room while using m&m with monks and hitting DOR INFLUENCE MONK WITH WHEEDLING, or any other sort of thing. If you're mad about it running around without input, how is it any different than using the mudlet mapper and modifying it to stop in each room to bash?
    If I'm not good enough for Lusternia, then it is no longer good enough for me.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    Draylor said:
    "Hey, here's a system that I've written that's illegal. It's nice, it's shiny, it's there, but it's not my fault if you use it in the way I programmed it to work".

    Eh? And how is that the case?
    To quote yourself...

    Draylor said:
    Suffice to say, and to those not in the know, "Yes, Saracen will -completely- autobash for you". (With absolutely no interaction).

    How you choose to use this capabiliity, however... Is totally up to you.

    image
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    Please forgive me, but I have purposefully not read most of the comments here owing to their related nature.

    Fact 1: Admin have given me the full go-ahead to release this section of Saracen.

    [quote]"Hey, here's a system that I've written that's illegal.[/quote]

    Incorrect.

    Saracen Combat & Utility System: Undergoing rewrite. IRE-wide single system coming in due course.
    HTML game logging site: http://www.logsty.com (feedback@logsty.com)
    The answer to life, the universe, and everything: http://www.google.com
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    Sorry, pal. Ignore my fail tags... Still getting used to the directives here.

    Saracen Combat & Utility System: Undergoing rewrite. IRE-wide single system coming in due course.
    HTML game logging site: http://www.logsty.com (feedback@logsty.com)
    The answer to life, the universe, and everything: http://www.google.com
  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,652 Transcendent
    I'm skr
    Ssaliss said:

    Actually...

    Triggers and automation are allowed in most cases as long as they are not used for gaining gold or experience, whether you are AFK or not.

    So even if you're sitting there and paying attention, they are, in fact, illegal. Will they catch you if you're sitting there watching it? Probably not. That doesn't make it allowed though.

    I'm sorry, what?

    So, if I have triggers to use stratagems to influence, that's illegal? Influencing triggers are illegal? Any sort of trigger like razing targets or moving on to another target once yours is dead s illegal? Any trigger to (let's say) auto attack domoth mobs when they spawn is illegal?

    Inb4 thread closed.
    If I'm not good enough for Lusternia, then it is no longer good enough for me.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    So what you're saying is that a system that autobashes without any interaction is legal to use?
    image
  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,652 Transcendent
    Sure, but if you use it afk, that's your rump.
    If I'm not good enough for Lusternia, then it is no longer good enough for me.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    See my previous quote:

    Triggers and automation are allowed in most cases as long as they are not used for gaining gold or experience, whether you are AFK or not.


    image
  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,652 Transcendent
    Good. I'd like to suggest you ask Vadi to disable his do-repeat portion of his system, and ask the admin to police the players to make sure they aren't triggering anything off the "You have recovered balance/equilibrium".
    If I'm not good enough for Lusternia, then it is no longer good enough for me.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,399 Transcendent
    Why are we arguing about automation rules?

    This is simple. If anyone chooses to use Draylor's scripts to gen-run, they will get shrubbed while Draylor will get away scot-free. Whose fault is it? Not Draylor. Is Draylor doing a good thing to either the game, to himself, to his customer or to his business? No.

    Draylor's philosophy is one that is very clear: Do it, but don't get caught. If you get caught, it's your fault for getting caught, not for breaking the rules. Basically, he sees nothing wrong with breaking the rules, either because he disagrees with them, or for some other reason I might not know. I will say here that I agree 100% with his philosophy. If you want to cheat, go ahead. If you get caught, it's your fault for getting caught.

    Now, is this a business model you want to support? That's your own decision to make. If you want to support such a philosophy, go ahead and buy it. I would be a customer too, if I didn't already have my own scripts in place. If I was a starter out, trust me, I'd be first in line to buy from Draylor, because, like I said, I'm a jerk like that and I'd game the system every bit as long as I have a decent chance of not getting caught.

    Now, you might be a better person than I am, and you might not agree with that philosophy. Don't buy his system, then. Make your choice.

  • CaeruloCaerulo Member Posts: 102 Apprentice
    edited May 2013
    Shaddus said:
    Also not sure how this is any different from sitting in a room while using m&m with monks and hitting DOR INFLUENCE MONK WITH WHEEDLING, or any other sort of thing. If you're mad about it running around without input, how is it any different than using the mudlet mapper and modifying it to stop in each room to bash?
    The difference here is that Vadi did not outright code the two systems to work together without human interaction. In this particular case, it is the person who modified it to be at fault.
    Draylor said:
    Please forgive me, but I have purposefully not read most of the comments here owing to their related nature.
    I'm confused, you asked for our opinions on the autobasher, and then chose to ignore our comments because too many people are saying the same thing? Wouldn't that amount to general consensus?
    Draylor said:
    Fact 1: Admin have given me the full go-ahead to release this section of Saracen.
    Fact 1 simply means that submitting scripts that enable area autobashing is allowed.
    Fact 2 is that actually using it is still shrubbable.
    That combination of facts mean that while you have no obligation to refrain from submitting your script, it is still to your best interests that you modify your script in such a manner that is still beneficial and also protects them from shrubbing. In its current state, that function will essentially be unused as it basically amounts to a shrubbing. By modifying it, your users can actually use it to make their bashing lives easier without the fear of being shrubbed.

    Edit: I just want to emphasise that I don't think that you are doing anything illegal, Draylor. I'm simply stating the fact that if you have your users' interests at heart, this would be the ideal implementation.
  • DysDys Member Posts: 489 Gifted
    As I understand, the basher and walk through an area are separate, so you could already do it legally by not turning on the walker. Bash, walk east, bash.
  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,652 Transcendent
    Vadi didn't purposefully code in his repeat so that people could repeat an action without pushing a button?

    Pull the other one.
    If I'm not good enough for Lusternia, then it is no longer good enough for me.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,399 Transcendent
    Oh, I also totally ignored Shaddus comparing genrun bashing scripts to balance chaser scripts.

    If there is a 40 guard stack and you balance-chase influence them, you're going to get shrubbed. Even 10 guard stacks are iffy. There is no 40 mob stack you can sit and balance-chase bash, though. And that's why genrun bashing scripts are "illegal". Of course, Shaddus is 100% correct in saying that a balance-chaser script (for influencing) is every bit as illegal as a genrun bashing script. Admins have and DO shrub people for abusing it. However, the admin are also not anal enough to outlaw all balance-chasing scripts, because they are important for things other than cheating: They are important for combat as well.

    Clearly, the admin know they can't outlaw balance-chaser scripts. They do, however, clamp down and punish people when such scripts are being abused.

    Genrun bashing scripts are 100% illegal. There is no use for them outside of anything except bashing, and for automation abuse. Even Eventru realm raiders don't use genrun bashing scripts. There is literally nothing else to use genrun bashing scripts for. The admin don't actually punish people who make the scripts, though. They punish instances when it's being abused. That's a good, consistent policy. Now, players, should players police themselves? That's up to the players to decide. Either way, if abuse gets out of hand and forces the admin to change their stance and ACTUALLY outlaw balance-chaser scripts, then that's a natural consequence. Your choice to make.

  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,652 Transcendent
    I'm gonna gracefully bow out of this thread. I agree with the basic premise of Lerad's post.
    If I'm not good enough for Lusternia, then it is no longer good enough for me.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    Shaddus said:
    Vadi didn't purposefully code in his repeat so that people could repeat an action without pushing a button? Pull the other one.
    Mmkay. First of all, triggering off of the balance messages (which, for all intents and purposes the DOR queue is) isn't illegal because it stops when there are no more things to kill.

    Making a system that walks through an area, looking for things to kill is illegal because you can turn it on and then go to sleep.
    image
This discussion has been closed.