Rambling thoughts: Knighthood executes - Reducing the dependency on RNG.

Karlach

After a long discussion with @Rivius last night, we were discussing the merits of skewer and execute. How they fit well with the theme of Knighthood, and allow the player to work towards an attrition kill where they have control of the final blow, and aren't praying to the god of numbers that they pull it off.

With #1131 in the pipeline for a fix soon, group hackdown spam in the hoping someone rolls the right number for the kill is out the window. While I don't mourn that at all, because it was a poor mechanic and needed replacing, it does open for means of more control, especially when alone. I've lost count of the number of times I've gone through the already RNG heavy requirements of Knighthood, had someone tendoned and double leg amputated, and in the subsequent sequence of hackdowns failed to get that crucial behead before they've cured and run off (or in the case of some classes been able to hinder/counter and use more controlled means of combat to secure a win) It really is one bit of luck too far, winning fights shouldn't have me sitting there thinking how lucky I was, I shouldn't be looking back at losses and going "Ok what can I do differently?" and it turns out the answer is buying a rabbit's foot, a horseshoe and a four leaf clover.


So I go back to the execute/skewer mechanic in the first paragraph, these work with the class concept, they're based off reaching a certain wound requirement, and even have affliction requirements. I'd like to open discussion on extending this mechanic to all Knighthood specs.

"Hang on Mork, Pureblade has decapitate" yep, and it's again a horrible mechanic used in conjunction with either knocking mid to low tier combatants in pits or the spam of lots of hindering. The only skill required is remembering to pause your system if you don't code it to automatically, and hope no one webs you in 10 seconds. It doesn't synergise with the wounding/affliction status of the class and if it went tomorrow in favour of a controlled attrition based kill I wouldn't weep for its loss. This may be slightly bias due to my general loathing of timed kills, but unlike some of the others in existence this really doesn't fit the spec. It would also be a nice replacement for Pulp for Bonecrushers, because I can't remember the last time anyone bothered using it.


So how would these work? Still pondering on the specific required afflictions/areas wounded, but the kill ideas were for Pureblades to hack down from the neck to the groin and splitting someone in half (think the Hound at the Battle of Blackwater for those who watch Game of Thrones) Bonecrushers to double someone over with an almighty shot to the gut/chest, before swinging in both hammers from either side down on their head to mush it into paste, and Blademasters to impale someone in the gut/chest area causing their target to either open their mouth in shock/to scream, with the second blade going right down their throat and out the back of their head. All fantastically gory enough for someone to have fun writing anyway!


Anyway along with other campaigns (delete natural miss please) to bring some stability to the Knighthood game of numbers, this is one of those things that's been stuck in my head, and I'm not offering as a finalised suggestion but would rather have open to opinions and suggestions. Adding control doesn't make Knighthood overpowered, as we've seen with both AL and Cavalier (And yes, though people are currently pondering the strength of Cavs, but it's not skewer they're complaining about) so why not extend it across the board in a way that compliments the class mechanics?

Rivius

This is something Mork brought up to me yesterday and I definitely do agree and always thought that all warrior specializations should have an execute or skewer equivalent. There are times after a really long fight when you've wounded someone in several body parts to such an extent that they honestly deserved to have lost ages ago, but because of bad luck, you never get that finishing kill. At that point, I really feel like every warrior deserves a chance to just bypass the RNG and end it, especially since noticing you're in danger of dying to wounds and fleeing isn't by any means a difficult thing to do at the moment.

I really would like to see bonecrusher, blademaster and pureblade get equivalent skills. It's also very good for making fighting as a knight a little more varied and less formulaic. 

Aurik

I have to admit, I'd be terribly sad to see Decapitate leave.

I was honestly delighted to see the synergy between traps and decapitate, and that I could actually net kills just from being clever about where and how I set traps and picking off stragglers. It got me interested in group fighting, without it I honestly don't think I'd have been very bothered and probably would've dropped Lusternia fairly quickly.

That said, I can see where having some more control over the kill would be appreciated. Decap is too much of an ambush kill - there're too many ways to stop it, I can't actually imagine pulling it off in 1v1 (besides, like, amp-arm-double-amp-legs or something), and honestly only manage it in groups due to the target being distracted or panicking.

Kaimanahi

LOL at "syngery between traps and decapitate", and thinking there is any cleverness to it... but I generally agree with the sentiment of the OP.

Hiriako

I agree with this sentiment 100%. I used Execute quite often when I was an AL, and I find that I use Skewer almost exclusively as a Cav. The only bashbrains kills I get are by pure accident. The only other thing I've seen which gets me even close to having the same level control is double arm amp with PB...which takes RNG (though assault bypasses some of that) and an incredible amount of prep and luck.

Shedrin

Personally I think BM/BC have a decent secondary kill method with HeartPierce and CrushAorta (though I think CrushAorta is better). The ability of power attacks to proc these affs plays into this. Not that they couldn't use work, though.

That said, what mechanics would you design for these new instakills?

Hiriako

Frankly, I think that the requirement of skewer is a little too easy in a sense, but is still reasonable. Two bodyparts at critical (chest/gut), one of two regen afflictions required. Execute is three parts, two at heavy, one at critical. (Head/chest/gut) I'd be fine with seeing similar things for the other specs.

CrushAorta is a viable alternative, but against tanky people it can still fail. I once had 6 in a row that didn't drop someone. 

As for what I'd propose... I'll have to consider it, but there are a lot of options. Mechanics wouldn't need to be all that different. They'd just have requirements.

Aurik

Kelly said:

LOL at "syngery between traps and decapitate", and thinking there is any cleverness to it... but I generally agree with the sentiment of the OP.

The cleverness is more macro-scale. The trick itself is simple, knowing where it's actually useful takes a little more intelligence. (And then there's a good rush and it fails horribly or someone gusts me into 1751623957217 people and I die. )

Granted, 'pit everything' works almost as well, so I guess I'm probably wasting a lot of effort for not much gain. Story of my life really. xD

Karlach

I have a personal loathing for pit decap, I use it because it works and it's clearing out mid to low tier hinderspam combatants while I pretend I'm Batman, and the rest of the group can ignore them and focus fire on someone else. But the only reason it works is because they lack the system/skills to just climb out in time and leave.

For me anything on that level is cheese and devalues their participation, because you're swatting them like a flies while they're normally being ignored in larger group scale combat because of them being a significantly smaller threat.

It's great for my ego and my kills tally, it's shit for their PK experience. "I turned up, I started hindering someone then I was in a room and couldn't get out and then just died without taking any damage." 

Aurik

Morkarion said:

I have a personal loathing for pit decap, I use it because it works and it's clearing out mid to low tier hinderspam combatants while I pretend I'm Batman, and the rest of the group can ignore them and focus fire on someone else. But the only reason it works is because they lack the system/skills to just climb out in time and leave.

For me anything on that level is cheese and devalues their participation, because you're swatting them like a flies while they're normally being ignored in larger group scale combat because of them being a significantly smaller threat.

It's great for my ego and my kills tally, it's shit for their PK experience. "I turned up, I started hindering someone then I was in a room and couldn't get out and then just died without taking any damage." 

Bolded is how/why half my trap setups work.

Karlach

Doesn't make it any less terrible. If offered the choice between a chance to cut through the final stage of RNG Hell, or a guarenteed kill on low threat combatants, I'd take option 1 any given day.

Barendur

Ive always thought it would be neat to get to trans in a guild primary skill, then go to your trainer and TRANSCEND (ABILITY) to start on another level of learning, with just a couple skills that are kill only, though not timed instas. Like transcending bonecrusher, and being able to learn the head smash thing that you were talking about, with crit head/chest and prone all being required. Purebladers could get one that requires all four limbs heavy or crit and then have a skill that takes them all off at once or something. I like this, because it brings more a sense of mastery over ones skills to me. And it would help because it wouldnt add more affs to the game, would give more people the opportunity to not be a one trick pony, see: telepathy, tahtetso, etc...

I dont know, might sound dumb, just a thought though. Could also make it to where these have quest requirements rather than a lesson requirement, such as "go see master so and so to further master your skills" and when you go there you have to fight some bad NPC and pull the skill off, like the head smash one.

Kio

I agree that there should be more questable skills.  It adds a super neat flavor, that's for sure.

(Please do not take this to "Snoefaasia is ridiculous fix please.")

Neos

Kio said:

I agree that there should be more questable skills.  It adds a super neat flavor, that's for sure.

(Please do not take this to "Snoefaasia is ridiculous fix please.")

I fully agree with this. I'd love more skills that you could get or enhance through questing, though not in a large super OP way.

Rivius

That would be fun. The cavalier quest was a really fun little experience.

Enyalida

I really want such a quest for becoming a Wildewood, because it comes with a lot of baggage (both RP/story and mechanical) that you might not appreciate as a novice with two choices in front of you.

Leolamins

Honestly I like the RNG.  Can be frustrating at times but for some reason I just like it.  Yes it is random but why shouldn't it be.

I find execute a lot more frustrating and honestly you normally only get it in long draw out 1v1 fights, against smaller people you are playing with or when there is a large group of warriors.

Kio

Leolamins said:

Honestly I like the RNG.  Can be frustrating at times but for some reason I just like it.  Yes it is random but why shouldn't it be.

I find execute a lot more frustrating and honestly you normally only get it in long draw out 1v1 fights, against smaller people you are playing with or when there is a large group of warriors.

Your entire active offense should not have such a huge RNG element to it.  Some?  Yea, sure.  Unteen layers of varying degrees?  Not so much.

The problem is, theoretically a warrior can do everything perfect.  He or she can never hit your rebounding, never hit your parry, never hit your stance, and get you from 0-Critical in moments, but never be rewarded for doing so because of the RNG elements.  All other classes seem to be balanced around the outliers (such as mega big damage numbers from inflation).  The problem with RNG being such a core element to warriors is that it can never be balanced properly, as the outliers are seemingly simultaneously overpowered and underpowered.  In a vacuum, it would seem to average out.  However, in a vacuum you don't have someone else wailing on you.

Synkarin

Kio said:

Leolamins said:

Honestly I like the RNG.  Can be frustrating at times but for some reason I just like it.  Yes it is random but why shouldn't it be.

I find execute a lot more frustrating and honestly you normally only get it in long draw out 1v1 fights, against smaller people you are playing with or when there is a large group of warriors.

Your entire active offense should not have such a huge RNG element to it.  Some?  Yea, sure.  Unteen layers of varying degrees?  Not so much.

The problem is, theoretically a warrior can do everything perfect.  He or she can never hit your rebounding, never hit your parry, never hit your stance, and get you from 0-Critical in moments, but never be rewarded for doing so because of the RNG elements.  All other classes seem to be balanced around the outliers (such as mega big damage numbers from inflation).  The problem with RNG being such a core element to warriors is that it can never be balanced properly, as the outliers are seemingly simultaneously overpowered and underpowered.  In a vacuum, it would seem to average out.  However, in a vacuum you don't have someone else wailing on you.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Yeah, you have some bad luck sometimes and don't get what you want, but on the other side, you sometimes get things too easily. It's been a long long while since I played warrior admittedly, and warriors have seen quite a few improvements since then (including RNG changes), but I always really enjoyed the RNG aspect of warriors.

Kio

I enjoy the RNG aspect too, honestly. The rage-inducing issues come from things like harmony/psymet/tattoo monks and healer guardians/wiccans. They mitigate or heal such a major part of wounding - even when you're doing an above-average job of avoiding stance/parry/rebounding, that the afflictions you need to land in order to survive - let alone kill them - have to have really lucky rolls all the time. This is, of course, from personal experience with a 2-handed spec with level 2 wound/stat runes. I'm also not incredibly experienced. However, I would really love if someone more experienced could theory craft something so I, personally, can know if I just suck.

It just seems pretty rough having no way to hinder my opponent and build towards a kill condition in these circumstances, especially when my enemy can and does so with relative ease.

Rivius

Leolamins said:

Honestly I like the RNG.  Can be frustrating at times but for some reason I just like it.  Yes it is random but why shouldn't it be.

I find execute a lot more frustrating and honestly you normally only get it in long draw out 1v1 fights, against smaller people you are playing with or when there is a large group of warriors.

Mostly the point, really. In groups you'll only ever really bother with beheading but in 1v1s it seems like execute has always been a very good alternative kill for axelords.