Waste Facility Zombies

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Comments

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,303 Transcendent

    I don't know. I don't think Celest ICly would be particularly concerned or feel threatened by a few zombies. Especially when those zombies like to camp right outside Mag and gobble up the taintlings that wander out the north gate. I think the grand scheme of the Light and all that is watery and holy, zombies aren't anything more than a gold farm. I think most broad thinking Celestines would recognize zombies locked away or zombies roaming the roads eating midbies will have little to no consequence in the taint vs light war. They can't divinus blast the place out of existance. (yet)

     

    As for the theory that other people play the game for other reasons, that's fine, but I think Eventru covered it pretty well. We're all subject to the entirety of the game. You're not "forced" into anything, you chose to play a game that has such mechanics, and you just don't get to cherry pick how you win or lose.

     

    I think the whole zombie thing is a large overreaction. You can easily circumvent them. At endgame, they are more thank tankable as you autowalk through them. They don't phase my unless they are in groups of 8 or more and I'm a widdle faeling. Personally I like seeing a little more danger on Prime, rather than it being care bear land. I get a little tired of hearing complaints about ANY QUEST that isn't utterly inconsequential. TBC, the soul forge, marani, zombies, even the catacombs quest. Any time a quest has detrimental side effects, however small, it's a forums jihad to have it changed. Stop being so adverse to a little adversity. It's healthy for a game to have actual conflict, even if that conflict is with mobs.

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  • RagniliffRagniliff Member Posts: 87 Adept


    Celina said:

     I get a little tired of hearing complaints about ANY QUEST that isn't utterly inconsequential. TBC, the soul forge, marani, zombies, even the catacombs quest. Any time a quest has detrimental side effects, however small, it's a forums jihad to have it changed. Stop being so adverse to a little adversity. It's healthy for a game to have actual conflict, even if that conflict is with mobs.

    People have complained about all of these things, but it is always for different reasons. I don't think these are fair comparisons.

    Soul Forge can easily be turned against who ever raises it. It is not done mostly because it requires an organised effort to do so, and it is a difficult argument for anyone to make in favour of it.

    Marani -was- ignored for a while, and disregarded as a nuisance some time after the release of her quest. The result was a world event where Marani got too strong and rained down world-endy stuff on everyone.

    TBC is just annoying. I can deal with annoying.

    With the Waste Facility, the problem is that the people who will want to seal it away are the most powerless to do so. They are completely reliant on people who have every incentive to keep it open. The reward for sealing the Waste Facility is ridiculously poor compared to the benefits of keeping it open. And the quest itself forces you to do everything in a very specific sequential manner. Yes, as Phoebus said, it could technically be done in one run. In the same way, sealing the gorgogs can technically be done in one run, but generally is not since there is difficulty in getting the box while keeping the cords while ensuring no one kills Gognigin while you get more gorgogs. But at least with the gorgogs, you can turn in the pieces in any order. In the Waste Facility, if you come short a cog, you are waiting an hour. There is are no promises that it won't happen again with the next gate.

    I have never said the quest should be deleted, or necessarily softened, but I think the incentives for handling the zombies or doing the sealing need serious changing. And I don't think that is unreasonable.
  • TullyTully Member Posts: 170 Capable
    edited November 2012
    Still want to see a zombie protection quest based on PvZ, which wouldn't negate the current quest but have an incentive to protect the basin from the zombies.

    Get Hoaracle to get his Hoom-vie out and drive to Torbollora with some lost plants...
    [BANNERCODE]
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,303 Transcendent
    Ragniliff said:


    Celina said:

     I get a little tired of hearing complaints about ANY QUEST that isn't utterly inconsequential. TBC, the soul forge, marani, zombies, even the catacombs quest. Any time a quest has detrimental side effects, however small, it's a forums jihad to have it changed. Stop being so adverse to a little adversity. It's healthy for a game to have actual conflict, even if that conflict is with mobs.

    People have complained about all of these things, but it is always for different reasons. I don't think these are fair comparisons.

    Soul Forge can easily be turned against who ever raises it. It is not done mostly because it requires an organised effort to do so, and it is a difficult argument for anyone to make in favour of it.

    Marani -was- ignored for a while, and disregarded as a nuisance some time after the release of her quest. The result was a world event where Marani got too strong and rained down world-endy stuff on everyone.

    TBC is just annoying. I can deal with annoying.

    With the Waste Facility, the problem is that the people who will want to seal it away are the most powerless to do so. They are completely reliant on people who have every incentive to keep it open. The reward for sealing the Waste Facility is ridiculously poor compared to the benefits of keeping it open. And the quest itself forces you to do everything in a very specific sequential manner. Yes, as Phoebus said, it could technically be done in one run. In the same way, sealing the gorgogs can technically be done in one run, but generally is not since there is difficulty in getting the box while keeping the cords while ensuring no one kills Gognigin while you get more gorgogs. But at least with the gorgogs, you can turn in the pieces in any order. In the Waste Facility, if you come short a cog, you are waiting an hour. There is are no promises that it won't happen again with the next gate.

    I have never said the quest should be deleted, or necessarily softened, but I think the incentives for handling the zombies or doing the sealing need serious changing. And I don't think that is unreasonable.


    Eh, I'm not sure I understand. Undoing or countering a quest really doesn't yield much of a reward ever. Typically, it just stops the recurring reward/mob spawns/whatever. People don't get a rewarded (much) for shutting down TBC, it just ends the effects of the quest. People have kept Globglob up for long periods of time just by spawn killing Stryker. The counter is that people just started spawn killing norchatine forever to prevent it. The thing with quests that require specific mobs or items is that they can be just as easily prevented as they can be accomplished. If it become a major issue, I have little doubt people will just start spawn killing Afmecia or the zombie dude in the bottom floor or whatever is required for the quest. It's been done by the bitter serens, I'm sure other can manage it as well.

     

    On a personal note, it's a great bashing ground when it's all zombified, and the game does not suffer by having more high tier bashing grounds available. Quite the opposite, in fact. Bashing areas are one of those things that you can't ever have too many of. Once you hit the critical number of mobs that the population can't bash them faster than they spawn, any additional bashing areas are just a boon. More variety, more gold, more xp, no down side (other than, in this case, dead midbies). So I can certainly see why the counter quest isn't a one run, easy to do thing. Because sealing zombies away only really closes a bashing area. The actual quest, on the other hand, opens up a great bashing spot for high level players. There are lots of reasons to keep it open and only 1 or 2 to keep it closed, so I don't think make it inversly easier to or more rewarding to seal away zombies would make sense mechanically. Unless you want to fill it with piles of viscanti that are worth the same as zombies. I'd be okay with that.

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  • KabinaKabina Member Posts: 54 Novice
    Just so you guys know, I am level 74 and they do not attack me. So it's not like they are attacking complete novices. By the time the Zombies attack them they will have at least a basic understanding of survival. So I really do not think the newbie argument is convincing. It just sounds like people who have higher levels who do not want to lose them, because they don't want to learn that aspect of the game. But that is my personal opinion.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,573 Transcendent
    The reward for taking down TBC is that you can bring in bards/scholars/pilgrims again.

    The reward for taking down the Soulforge is that orgs stop losing power passively (I think that's the effect? It hasn't been up in forever).

    The reward for killing Marani is that people are no longer afflicted in the mountains (which, granted, is mostly an annoyance).

    The reward for sealing the zombies is that.. you're no longer able to kill the zombies to get gold/xp. Frankly, it's the only "conflict quest" where the people able to counter it are the ones it doesn't affect negatively at all, and the people it does affect negatively can't counter it.

    As I've stated before though, I'm mostly fine with it (aside from being nearly killed by the zombies every time I run into them) since they don't attack people below a certain level. Move them off the highways and I'd be perfectly fine with them.
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  • EventruEventru Member, Gods Posts: 719 Divine
    edited November 2012
    Kialkarkea said:
    Eventru said:

    The reality is that being butchered by swarms of aggressive mobs can be exceptionally demoralizing for newbies. As such, generally such mobs won't attack people below level 30 or so, events or otherwise (though sometimes there are exceptions to that). Especially when they're in areas newbies might reasonably end up. For older players/non-newbies, they'll always be dangerous things, because Lusternia is a dangerous place.
    I agreed with everything in your post, right up until here. Lusternia is a dangerous place, but I don't think anyone wants to see newbies getting smashed by the latest and greatest Demi-Mob invasion! Just hooking things up into Innocence sounds like a simple flag to make, and it lets the newbie decide whether or not they want to get in on the apocalypse yet.
    It's not so simple as that. Anyways, I say 'there are exceptions to that' because not everyone does everything the same way. It's easy to just 'flag and forget' mobs to be aggressive (it also stops situations in which people end up in a room with aggressive mobs but don't get attacked), but in the process it does make newbies vulnerable.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,722 Transcendent
    The only time they're really dangerous is when they mob up and you see a room of 5 or more of the little buggers.

    Unless you're one of the people who can bash them, it's certain (if not instant) death. I tend to clear the highway every so often of them, it's a quick and easy essence/offering/gold spot.

    But even as a Mag I like to keep the place open, taint abominations need killing sooner or later, can't keep them down there forever.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • ChenaktiChenakti Member Posts: 6 Inept
    Why not just introduce a mechanic where once all of the zombies on the Highway have been slain, they won't respawn there again for an additional five or six hours? Let the people who want to hunt them hunt them, keep them on the Highway if for some reason it's so massively important to the admin, but don't keep them there near CONSTANTLY when some of us are just trying to walk around and have absolutely zero knowledge of the quest or even where this area is.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,303 Transcendent

    Because this isn't a MUD about Care bears!

     

    Walk arooouuund.

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,702 Transcendent
    edited November 2012

    8-X

    ^-- Zombie, not a care bear.

    That said- I'd probably kill them more if they didn't just near-instantly respawn en masse, it feels like a waste of my time.
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  • ChenaktiChenakti Member Posts: 6 Inept
    Xenthos said:

    That said- I'd probably kill them more if they didn't just near-instantly respawn en masse, it feels like a waste of my time.
    See see see?
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,303 Transcendent
    You know, the area they wander around is pretty limited. Acknor has an alternate entrance. You can use the Mountains to get up north. It's pretty easy to avoid them entirely if you want to.
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  • KagatoKagato Carmichael, CAMember Posts: 1,071 Fabled
    Celina said:
    You know, the area they wander around is pretty limited. Acknor has an alternate entrance. You can use the Mountains to get up north. It's pretty easy to avoid them entirely if you want to.
    The issue is the fact that they sometimes wander up the Avechna's Peak path.  It's been a while I'll admit but there has been times when I've walked outside the aetherplex and HELLO! There's a zombie or 2 there.  Even with them being set to non-aggressive for up to level 30 - PARTICULARLY now that you can stay in newton caves until 31st circle.  I know I would be unhappy if I got turfed out of the caverns having just hit 31st circle only to find a zombie waiting right outside to squish me.

    I'd like if anything to see the zombies restricted so that they can't get up avecha's peak itself.  I have no problems with them wandering the highway but when they go up the mountain itself it starts posing a LITTLE bit of an issue.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,573 Transcendent
    They're non-aggressive far higher than level 30, AFAIK. I've heard of people level 60 that they don't attack.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,303 Transcendent

    What Ssaliss said.

    I think it's an interesting phenomenon, that although there isn't actually a problem with zombies murdering swathes of lowbies and midbies, it's somehow become a problem in this thread. We saw the same thing when some folks ran a campaign against the TBC and the poor, crushed spirits of the newbies. Even though there was not evidence of any of the complaints. Zombie deaths, considering their location and aggressive brain devouring tendencies, are rather sparse. Let's all come back to reality, people.

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  • PortiusPortius Likes big books, cannot lie Member Posts: 1,263 Transcendent
    For reference, I'm pretty sure that the point where they become aggressive is level 80. Which in my case at least is a point where 3 swings from them is usually lethal.
    Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 958 Mythical
    Portius said:
    For reference, I'm pretty sure that the point where they become aggressive is level 80. Which in my case at least is a point where 3 swings from them is usually lethal.
    This. It's not that they kill newbies, it's that you pretty much have to be a Demigod to safely bash them.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,303 Transcendent
    GO. AROUND.

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,702 Transcendent
    NO.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,702 Transcendent
    edited November 2012
    I just tank them, personally. :P

    Doesn't change the fact that I have absolutely 0 incentive to bash the things.  I can get better experience and gold elsewhere.  Especially when they respawn with almost no gold, shortly after being bashed the first time.  No point.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,303 Transcendent
    Yes, but the zombies IN the actual quest area that increase in number when the quest is done are awesome.

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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,608 Transcendent
    I personally find the zombies to be a minor annoyance when they knock me down when I'm walking somewhere, but otherwise don't really care at all about them. However looking at the quest design objectively, I think that if the ultimate consequence is that these zombies have become a permanent feature on Ackleberry Highway, I have to ask if that was ever intended. You can see with things like Hifarae, TBC, Soulforge etc, they're down more often than not and I've always felt that it was designed to be this way. It seems a bit coo-coo to think that people should feel anything other than annoyed at the consequences and want to get rid of them as much as possible. 
    I won't go so far as to say that these quests should be changed. Mostly ambivalent about the topic. But felt like throwing that out there.
  • UshaaraUshaara Member Posts: 1,189 Transcendent
    Never had an issue with them myself either, but for a potential solution to the 'highways aren't safe for the non-demis who can't tank their hits' posts, would flagging them to become aggressive to people who stay in the room they're in for say, 3 seconds be a goer? A bit like how Continuum spheres become aggressive if an enemy lingers in their presence.

    Plays up the slow-reacting, lurching stereotype of zombies, while letting people who are quick run by them safely.
  • PortiusPortius Likes big books, cannot lie Member Posts: 1,263 Transcendent
    I think that would fix just about everything.
    Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
  • ChenaktiChenakti Member Posts: 6 Inept
    Good Ushaara. Best thinker.
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    Ragniliff said:
    Celest has gone out of its way to make sure this place stays open.
    There have been a lot more in Celest wishing them gone than the numbers seeking they remain. Just thought I would put that out there.

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  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    I have stood in a room with them not attacking me numerous times, so not sure what kicks them off, really.

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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,608 Transcendent
    Yeah I think there already is some kind of delay on their attacks...
  • RagniliffRagniliff Member Posts: 87 Adept
    edited November 2012
    Celina said:
    Yes, but the zombies IN the actual quest area that increase in number when the quest is done are awesome.

    The funny thing is, you can open all of that up without zombies being on the highways. But as a result, it becomes very, very, very, very easy to finish the quest from there, such to the point where people can finish it accidentally. Kind of like what happened to you. I would not be at all shocked if that is how a majority of the releases have happened, actually.
    Rivius said:
     However looking at the quest design objectively, I think that if the ultimate consequence is that these zombies have become a permanent feature on Ackleberry Highway, I have to ask if that was ever intended. You can see with things like Hifarae, TBC, Soulforge etc, they're down more often than not and I've always felt that it was designed to be this way. It seems a bit coo-coo to think that people should feel anything other than annoyed at the consequences and want to get rid of them as much as possible. 
    This is roughly what I was trying to express when I responded to Draylor earlier (and with a more passive tone). And honestly, if making the zombies aggro on everyone (including people with innocence) make people act more like they should, I'd be all for it. I have serious misgivings over whether that would happen or not, though.
    Draylor said:
    I have stood in a room with them not attacking me numerous times, so not sure what kicks them off, really.
    That's because they're not normal aggros. They only aggro on the person who enters the room. This has some curious side effects.

    If zombies keep walking into your room, they will ignore you until you attack them. In many ways, this is actually pretty useful for people who decide to bash them, since the clumps will generally break themselves up as you kill.

    It also means that anyone speed-walking through will have a chance to be attacked by every single zombie along the way. In fact, if I am on the highway killing zombies and someone else walks by while I'm in a room with 5-6, this ends up helping me in a noticeable fashion (because when they do that, they all redirect their aggro to the person walking through, and they will not revert back when the person leaves.)

    This is probably why so many people have different experiences with zombie aggro.
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