Diversify Armours

Saran

So, I've been thinking about armour types after a conversation about cool thematic ideas. In this case, Hartstone who run around in tribal leather gear which resulted in thinking "we could organise some ritual gear" as opposed to yeah that could be functional armour that we always wear... >_> Which kinda makes me sad, cause that could be awesome but if you run around in leather then you're sacrificing like... half of your potential armour as well as the proofs, without batting and there's just not one beneficial aspect of it other than it potentially looks cooler. So I just wanted to open the discussion and see what people think, what would make leather armour worth it, what sort of costs should be attached. I'm not sure about those, but I do think that rather than necessarily making this part of a trade skill these could be guild skills. The Hartstone for example might have some abilities in Druidry or Stag that imbue the armor with properties of the White Hart that would make them an equivalent choice to great robes. It's just kinda dull when it seems like you can pick the warriors out because they're wearing plate, the tattooists out because they're not wearing anything, and everyone else is just standing around in robes.

Ssaliss

Personally, I'd love to see armor normalisation. Instead of having leather ending up at 20'ish, they could be modified to end up at 50'ish (on par with robes). The other armor types would be adjusted to fall in the same spectrum as they do today between leather and fullplate (i.e. fullplate would be unchanged, and chain (for the sake of argument, let's say leather is 20, chain is 60 and fullplate is 100) would end up at 75).

Saran

That's the other option, I guess I trend more towards diverse things rather than general. Though the chain modification might be interesting for guardians depending on how much they need the proofs.

Enyalida

Generally the problem with diversifying things as vital as armor is that most people, even those who don't engage in combat or high-tier combat, will just want to go for what is the 'best option', which will likely be quickly worked out. Unless things are kept strictly equivalent or closely competitive, winners in the various situations will probably be worked out and used exhaustively. Look at the warrior weapons, with the different stat bases. Pretty quickly, it was worked out that one type of weapon is the best for the majority of combatants in the majority of situations, and those weapons are the only ones you see around anymore.

 Folks with funding may upkeep two sets, one for hunting/fighting and one for RP, in the same way that some folks keep sets of clothing ready for roleplaying... but most don't (in my experience).

That said, a class ability that boosts inferior armor so that it functions like a superior armor would work, and be fairly interesting. Stag users have mystikal sigils they can tool into the leather that gives them proofs (like robes), and garlands of bones that increase the armor value (up to robe levels), or something. Of course, that'd leave out splendors, which would be an issue.

Ssaliss

Enyalida said:

Of course, that'd leave out splendors, which would be an issue.

That could always be worked around.

if (person.haveAbility(Tailoring, Splendors))
then
  garland.armorvalue=splendorquality
else
  garland.armorvalue=robequality
endif

Enyalida

Of course, though thematically, it would take some expert wangling.

Ssaliss

"From your superior knowledge of the intricacies of clothing, you can place the garlands in such a way as to maximise its potential". Done.

Cadfael

I'd really like for commune warriors to be able to wear some form of improved leather armor. It would suit them so much better, thematically, than plate.

Saran

Enyalida said:

Generally the problem with diversifying things as vital as armor is that most people, even those who don't engage in combat or high-tier combat, will just want to go for what is the 'best option', which will likely be quickly worked out. Unless things are kept strictly equivalent or closely competitive, winners in the various situations will probably be worked out and used exhaustively. Look at the warrior weapons, with the different stat bases. Pretty quickly, it was worked out that one type of weapon is the best for the majority of combatants in the majority of situations, and those weapons are the only ones you see around anymore.

 Folks with funding may upkeep two sets, one for hunting/fighting and one for RP, in the same way that some folks keep sets of clothing ready for roleplaying... but most don't (in my experience).

That said, a class ability that boosts inferior armor so that it functions like a superior armor would work, and be fairly interesting. Stag users have mystikal sigils they can tool into the leather that gives them proofs (like robes), and garlands of bones that increase the armor value (up to robe levels), or something. Of course, that'd leave out splendors, which would be an issue.

You can already proof leather, really the only differences are no splendours and the physical protection levels

Enyalida

I think it would be cool for every single class to have unique armor in some way, tbh.

Saran

That is the general idea really, like... I want to see Druids in Leather gear, but like... Wiccans could make more sense in Robes potentially. If you slotted the benefits for leather that the Hartstone might get into the Stag skill you could potentially open that up to Stag Warriors getting them too, perhaps with further benefits to make them competitive with plate that druids couldn't get. Of course, people are still going to min-max, as long as robes are the best option they're going to choose them. The goal here is to make the other options, at least, actually be options that are competitive with robes, if not slightly better. Other thoughts that have come to mind are things like... giving an ability to Researchers where by any robes they wear that are crafted with a base amount of charged gems might offer a slight bonus, however say... Nihilists might need to be wearing chain crafted with certain corpses and Celestines might get them if their scale mail is crafted with light essence. They'd all end up equivalent but they'd all be their own thing.

Marcella

Silly. Druids need barkwood armor, like in DnD.

Saran

Maybe... though with the differentiation between the two, the idea of having the *woods bark serve as their armour has already been raised. Leather works a bit better for fleshy druids in my mind because it could then be tied in with staghide and stagform if you're fleshy.

Enyalida

Yeah, I like the idea of the -wood versions using bark armor (barkskin that's real BARKSKIN).

Saran

I know I've mentioned it before, but yeah the idea that the Hartstone would need to be wearing leather armour with at least one deer as a commodity could kinda work nicely

Karlach

Not entirely keen on the idea of Commune Knights being more thematically attached to improved leather than chain or plate, perhaps more decor or specific design embedded in (Mork's armour has Crow Feathers in the pauldrons for example)

Material and bulk has always been more racial specific in my mind, than org specific. While I could see an Elfen or Faeling in light and nimble banded style armour, you look at something like an Igasho or a Krokani and it's hard to not see them in giant bulky plate.

Cadfael

@Morkarion: It has less to do with speed and nimbleness for me personally - historical plate really wasn't all that cumbersome, regardless of how Hollywood and RPGs have chosen to represent it. My thought was more that tribal warriors would be more attached to cruder, less technologically advanced armors than their 'civilized' counterparts. And I'd only really want it as an alternative option - not trying to force people to dress up their characters in leather if they don't want to.

Rivius

Not an expert on designs and forging and whatnot, though I have noticed that people take larger freedoms with field plate than they do with fullplate. Given that they are now one and the same as far as protection goes, I feel like warriors have a lot of options.

Iasmos

Karlach

Just do what I did. Have your own private cartel and design/forge there.

Rivius

Are you not able to customize masterarmour?

Karlach

Not to my knowledge, it's not an artifact nor something you can attach runes to.

Ssaliss

You can customise the desc everything as long as you pay 50 credits for it. The only question is "Is it worth it". You can't make weaponry/armour resetting/non-decay though (although if masterarmour is non-decay (I don't know if it is or not) you might be able to make it resetting).

Cadfael

It is. I wonder whether you can make it resetting, though. Hrm....

Karlach

Master Armour is indeed non decay.

Still requires repair though.

Shaddus

No, you can't make plate reset.

Saran

Morkarion said:

Not entirely keen on the idea of Commune Knights being more thematically attached to improved leather than chain or plate, perhaps more decor or specific design embedded in (Mork's armour has Crow Feathers in the pauldrons for example)

Material and bulk has always been more racial specific in my mind, than org specific. While I could see an Elfen or Faeling in light and nimble banded style armour, you look at something like an Igasho or a Krokani and it's hard to not see them in giant bulky plate.

I'm not entirely sure what you're actually trying to say with the second part of the first sentence. But I think the answer is that variety is the key here. There are, technically I guess, six armour types ignoring the improved versions for tradespeople. Naked, Robes, Leather, Scale, Chain, and Plate. But we only really see two maybe three of them used because the rest are not worth it.

 

So what I'm honestly hoping for is really for there to be no difference between, appropriate, choices for each guild.

 

As to the comment of forcing people to

 dress in leather if they don't want to... isn't that exactly what is happening now? Like... some people feel that leather is a cooler and more thematically appropriate armour choice but it's just not an option because if they wear it they are at least halving their defence.

Tetra

The playerbase has been asking for leather to be workable for many years now.  If you can come with a sensible thematic and mechanical way of introducing that option into the game-- put something together and post it here.

Someone did that with sorceglass, I believe, and it was added into the game.

Ssaliss

My suggestion seemed simple enough: Give leather the same stats as robes. Adjust other armour accordingly.

Tetra

You're forgetting that robes also come with a hood and are one piece, so they are automatically superior and easier to assemble - regardless of what armour stats they have.

That is why if you want to wear leather, have a cartel make leather robes.  Better yet, use the suit noun and design it to be form-fitting.  The reason it requires extra effort and creativity is because robes have become the norm.  It's not an unfair or imbalanced aspect of the game, just the popular choice that people make robes.

Ssaliss

Actually, I didn't forget that at all. Yes, robes are one piece and come with a hood, but leather armour can also cover all parts of the body, so that doesn't really matter much, aside from it being harder to get the right stats on leather armour. That is, however, compensated for by the fact that leather armour lasts for a lot longer than robes do (I think leather armour start out with 180 months, as opposed to 50-60 months of robes).

Besides, if leather armour got higher stats to compensate for it having four pieces, then everyone would just use leather armour instead of robes, even if the difference was small. The only way to give people an option between leather and robes is to give the same protection to both, really.