Organisational RP. Idealist perceptions vs reality.

24

Comments

  • RialormRialorm Member Posts: 1,055 Transcendent
    Everiine said:
    @Malarious, all of your opinions on org RP are based solely on PvP. I like to think that there are many more options for org RP that aren't "go out and kill people."
    You can do this without doing PvP. Think of propaganda in the form of news posts, literature, theatre and so on. Seek to do things that benefit your org through more indirect conflict. I don't advocate outright griefing but show them that you mean business to be the best power collecting / aether hunting / culture winning / ... group. All in the name of your orgs ideals.
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  • TurnusTurnus The Big Bad Wolf Member Posts: 581 Transcendent
    Serenwilde's big issue is that the core ideals are nebulous and ill-defined really.

    Most everybody has their own thoughts on the subject and there really hasn't been a lot lately (via players or admin as far as I can tell) to focus and press for something. Most attempts tend to be brushed aside and ignored. So really it comes down to serenwilde not really having a "core ideal" to even really strive for. More like a dozen half-ideals.

    The other posts here have been fairly interesting to read, kudos to the contributors.

    ~--------------**--------------~

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  • TridemonTridemon Member Posts: 612 Fabled
    Gaudiguch is a city of individuals, so why ban someone just because they're from a featherbrained race? Same with illithoid, there are individuals who've grown beyond their race's harsh beginnings.
    Well, I've already put out what I believe to be Celest's rationale, but as for the Serenwilde? At least one of their divines absolutely DESPISES the Illithoid with a holy passion.
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 581 Master
    Is Crow less important than before?  The main things that change over time are conflict and perceptions.  Unless we have directly changed RP those are presumed constant.  Crow is less of a scary force because he -is- a joke compared to previous.  Combat is a MAJOR piece and measure of RP, because when the combatants change flows there was a major change at some level. 

    Lusternia never seemed to thrive more than when combat was frequent and active, because combatants tend to get credits, there tend to be more sales, more people teaching, etc.  Things just go better with conflict, that is why Lusternia is a conflict based game.

    On a GUILD level though, I like the idols and scorpion aspect of Nekotai. Even if admin tried to completely gut the scorpion aspect (I feel this was a mistake, it should have been encouraged), it is interesting.   What I would like to see is the Nekotai to drop the Illithoid, and try to mesh more into the crow and night thing. Specially with the covenant.

    Really I would like to see guilds who feel out of place, if there are others, get a make over to help line them up in their orgs. Then you have 5 separate entities inside the organization with common goals and beliefs.   Everything in Magnagora was based around the Demon Lords, cept the ninjakari.  

    I would love to see changes, who knows, with overhaul maybe some classes will get a major redesign in skills to match up too. 
  • EodhEodh Member Posts: 340 Gifted
    Rialorm said:
    You can do this without doing PvP. Think of propaganda in the form of news posts, literature, theatre and so on. Seek to do things that benefit your org through more indirect conflict. I don't advocate outright griefing but show them that you mean business to be the best power collecting / aether hunting / culture winning / ... group. All in the name of your orgs ideals.
    That's a nice thought, but from the few weeks that I've been playing Lusternia, there seems to be a very small portion of organization conflict that engages that conflict through propaganda and the like. The vast majority of organization conflict in Lusternia is, really, just PK.

  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,652 Transcendent
    I knew there was a reason I like you more than @Elostian, @Zvoltz :)
    If I'm not good enough for Lusternia, then it is no longer good enough for me.
  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 1,037 Mythical
    Personally, what I want to see out of New Celest is something of a more coherent theology from the Supernal-focused guilds. Magnagora was like that when I was there too, so maybe it's just me who cares about the theological underpinnings of various doctrines and laws, but I'd really like to see people praying to the Saints. Or recognizing that they even exist. And wondering about the effects of various actions on their soul, about life after death, the Light, the nature of evil and all of that. Most people just seem to shrug their shoulders and go with "Light=Goodness=Christian Morality" or "Light=Christian Morality=Rage Against Gothically" or "Taint=Satanism=Jesus Elohora Compels You!" instead of engaging the ideas as a coherent philosophy.

    The Aquamancers seem to be in a good place, RP-wise, as trying to find a way to cleanse, contain and reverse the Taint. Similarly, the Tahtetso have a wonderful RP basis in Lumosis that doesn't get nearly enough love. Even the Cantors have their Rhapsody/Flock of Miracles thing going on as an aside to the Supernals.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,819 Transcendent
    Eodh said:
    Rialorm said:
    You can do this without doing PvP. Think of propaganda in the form of news posts, literature, theatre and so on. Seek to do things that benefit your org through more indirect conflict. I don't advocate outright griefing but show them that you mean business to be the best power collecting / aether hunting / culture winning / ... group. All in the name of your orgs ideals.
    That's a nice thought, but from the few weeks that I've been playing Lusternia, there seems to be a very small portion of organization conflict that engages that conflict through propaganda and the like. The vast majority of organization conflict in Lusternia is, really, just PK.
    I would say that the majority of Xenthos' conflict stuff is conflict-RP, not PK.  I'll agree that it's not the same for everyone, but I am actually doing some of it as we speak.

    I actually enjoy the RP-part more than the rah rah death, on the whole.
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  • HiriakoHiriako Member Posts: 340 Gifted
    I rather enjoy the RP as well. I've my own thoughts on where things should be in the Serenwilde, but since I'm putting a fairly massive amount of those into action over these past few days, we'll see where it goes. I'll post after a little time has passed.
  • TurnusTurnus The Big Bad Wolf Member Posts: 581 Transcendent
    Hiriako said:
    I rather enjoy the RP as well. I've my own thoughts on where things should be in the Serenwilde, but since I'm putting a fairly massive amount of those into action over these past few days, we'll see where it goes. I'll post after a little time has passed.
    -dons his wolfskin cloak-     Winter is coming.

    ~--------------**--------------~

    The original picture of Turnus is still viewable here, again by Feyrll.
  • KethaeraKethaera Member Posts: 593 Mythical

    Eodh said:
    Rialorm said:
    You can do this without doing PvP. Think of propaganda in the form of news posts, literature, theatre and so on. Seek to do things that benefit your org through more indirect conflict. I don't advocate outright griefing but show them that you mean business to be the best power collecting / aether hunting / culture winning / ... group. All in the name of your orgs ideals.
    That's a nice thought, but from the few weeks that I've been playing Lusternia, there seems to be a very small portion of organization conflict that engages that conflict through propaganda and the like. The vast majority of organization conflict in Lusternia is, really, just PK.
    I don't agree with that at all, from the few months I've played. What it depends on, I think, is how much you're willing to interact with people and find non-PK ways to compete with others. PK is the most obvious form of organizational conflict, but certainly not the only one.  If there's two things that I think Lusternia does better than other IRE games, it's that there are actual, useful ways for non-combatants to participate in city politics(any of the things Rialorm mentioned), and that it's not as simple a concept as 'good vs evil.' Complicated plotlines tend to lead to complicated interactions, but you might have to take some initiative to find it.
  • HiriakoHiriako Member Posts: 340 Gifted
    Turnus said:
    Hiriako said:
    I rather enjoy the RP as well. I've my own thoughts on where things should be in the Serenwilde, but since I'm putting a fairly massive amount of those into action over these past few days, we'll see where it goes. I'll post after a little time has passed.
    -dons his wolfskin cloak-     Winter is coming.
    I'm trying to put this more as a unique thing for us than playing off of GoT. :P
  • TurnusTurnus The Big Bad Wolf Member Posts: 581 Transcendent
    Oh, I've no doubt, but lets be honest. It was the first thing I thought. Will be interesting to see what (if anything) comes of it. As I said above, most attempts at trying to center on a focus tend to get brushed off - but we'll see where it goes.

    ~--------------**--------------~

    The original picture of Turnus is still viewable here, again by Feyrll.
  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    Ixchilgal... You were the first person to ever kill me when I first started playing Lusternia. I had the free sipping script that the general newbie population got pointed to at the time and was making my own hunting triggers to cure mob affs.

    I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I walked into a village Mag owned, got hit by a statue, and the next thing I know I got chasm'd and my corpse was petrified by this Mage with a name I could never pronounce.

    I have never forgotten that moment or the terror I felt. It was the single most impactful moment that has ever happened to me in Lusty.

    At least, I'm 95% sure it was you. To this day, any time I see your name show up on my output, I think of that moment and I smile... Even if it was some other old guard that I'm confusing for you.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    Talan said:
    The caste system in Hallifax supposes a bottomless population of highly competent people who are content to toil away doing such petty things as attempting to win, in exchange for being actively looked down upon by people who, in terms of game activities, do little to nothing.

    Lusternia is not a game where you can totally ignore things like combat and conflict and hope to succeed. Success brings better quality of life, and that, along with an inclusive community, brings population. Lusternia is also not a book-and-play-writing game. That is one component, but we are continually told that Lusternia is a conflict game, full of conflict quests and recurring conflict bouts that require participation.

    The caste system in Hallifax is far from dead, it's just been streamlined into [one diminishing clique] and [everybody else]. I've talked to a lot of people in Hallifax about this, and even those who do spend the majority of their time contriving elaborate scientific/engineering projects, writing books, or making plans for artistic/theatre oriented activities feel as though they are outsiders unrecognized for their efforts. But they like the relative calm and quiet, so they are content to just get on with things, demurely disgruntled.

    Collectivism and the Caste System are inherently at odds. If every person is a valuable component to the whole, then logic dictates that if an Elite Caste emerges, it should consist of those who contribute the most. They would be the most well-rounded, and show the greatest exertion for the betterment of the org. They improve themselves, and help to improve others because it improves the whole.

    On Hallifax it is down on paper that this is not the case. They say, "That's nice and all, but we are mainly concerned with arts and sciences."

    The problem is that they have never integrated "the stuff that playing Lusternia primarily consists of" with art or science - and it would be so easy to do. The things required of players during domoths, flares, revolts, &c are prescribed and procedural. There are tested methods of success, which can be honed and continually refined. That is science. Combat itself, as well as various combat situations (tactics), require finesse, elegance, ingenuity, and creativity. That is art. "The Art of War" is not just a catchy title. We're all GoT fans here, right? Just because he only paints in red doesn't make him less an artist.

    I'm baffled as to why the players of Hallifax have never embraced this viewpoint. It could be so good.

    I'm not saying that Hallifax should be only this, but it needs to do a better job of marrying its premise to the game world, rather than trying to create something that only exists apart from "the rabble." We 'live' in the rabble, even in Hallifax.

    As for the snootiness and the extremely rigid formality...

    My point of view has always been that any org's negative components should be directed outward, rather than inward. So whereas Glomdoring might be all about deceit and obfuscation, you shouldn't lie to your orgmates, for example. While Magnagora may venerate the ruthless pursuit of personal glory, they shouldn't necessarily be doing it at the cost of their internal infrastructure. Gaudiguch might be about chaos and freedom, but they shouldn't do it at the cost of the most basic order and civility inside the city.

    These are all things which have been problematic in the past, and are, imo, problematic for Hallifax now. It's pretty unreasonable to carry on being a snooty elitist when you're lucky to maintain a 6% share of the game's population day to day. You'll end up with no one to look down on but Fraesic and the Comptrollers (and even they cop an attitude).
    I feel that much of this is what the Warrior caste should do, they should be striving for perfection and excellence in the martial world. They are the defenders of the Collective, they are the conquerors who will go out to claim territory for the city and destroy anything that threatens her. 

    Ultimately, are they not truly the greatest of the Castes? The Artists and Scholars are definitely the highest caste, because the society of hallifax is designed around supporting them and enabling their work, each caste "below" them serving some purpose that feeds into their work. 
    However, the warrior caste should know the truth. They should know that the city would crumble without them, they should know that the fragile scientists and artists would be long dead if it weren't for the protection the Warrior caste offers.



    One of the primary things that actually burned me out in Hallifax was the adamant refusal from those in power at the time to actually acknowledge the "lesser" castes. 

    I would have loved to see effort directed at building up similar things for the Warrior, Merchant, and Bureaucratic castes (servants would be those who haven't earned entry into any of the castes) but from memory it was rejected because everyone should want to be in the higher castes...

    Again, the mind set that I took with the bureaucratic caste was similar to what I'd suggest for Warriors. Ultimately, the city will fall apart without the bureaucrats managing everything, those books the scientists and artists love to write might be great and all but no one will know the true glory of the collective if the librarian doesn't do their duty and organise their publishing.

    I'd also place the Judges and the like in that caste, so like... if some Scientist decides to go off and perform an experiment that is unauthorised or otherwise deemed illegal then its the bureaucrats and warriors who come knocking on their door who will remind the "higher" castes of their place in the collective.


    Anyway, babbling now.
    Hiriako said:
    Turnus said:
    Hiriako said:
    I rather enjoy the RP as well. I've my own thoughts on where things should be in the Serenwilde, but since I'm putting a fairly massive amount of those into action over these past few days, we'll see where it goes. I'll post after a little time has passed.
    -dons his wolfskin cloak-     Winter is coming.
    I'm trying to put this more as a unique thing for us than playing off of GoT. :P
    I'll be honest, I was reading through the post and couldn't stop thinking about Changeling: The Lost. :/
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  • HiriakoHiriako Member Posts: 340 Gifted
    Saran, though I admit to inspiration from a few elements of that, I point out that many of the things they do with the nWoD games tend to be inspired from RL mythos and other fictional sources.

    ...and yes, I have the core book for every nWoD and some oWoD splats as well as a few extra books sitting directly to my right. But I mostly play Geist and Mage. :P
  • IxchilgalIxchilgal Member Posts: 33 Apprentice
    Kio said:
    Ixchilgal... You were the first person to ever kill me when I first started playing Lusternia. I had the free sipping script that the general newbie population got pointed to at the time and was making my own hunting triggers to cure mob affs. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I walked into a village Mag owned, got hit by a statue, and the next thing I know I got chasm'd and my corpse was petrified by this Mage with a name I could never pronounce. I have never forgotten that moment or the terror I felt. It was the single most impactful moment that has ever happened to me in Lusty. At least, I'm 95% sure it was you. To this day, any time I see your name show up on my output, I think of that moment and I smile... Even if it was some other old guard that I'm confusing for you.
    Honestly, it was probably me.  I was the only person with a name this awful for ages.  But if it makes you feel any better, you could probably beat me six ways from sunday now.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    Hiriako said:
    Saran, though I admit to inspiration from a few elements of that, I point out that many of the things they do with the nWoD games tend to be inspired from RL mythos and other fictional sources.

    ...and yes, I have the core book for every nWoD and some oWoD splats as well as a few extra books sitting directly to my right. But I mostly play Geist and Mage. :P

    Yeah, I have Changeling the lost, Mage the ascension, and Werewolf the forsaken. So my mind goes more towards Thyrsus and maybe the general werewolf when thinking about Serenwilde.

    It might be because I've just read a lot of the Changeling stuff that my mind really heavily associated it, I guess I just hadn't thought of Serenwilde being quite like that.
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  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer Member Posts: 1,538 Transcendent
    Iytha said:
    Personally, what I want to see out of New Celest is something of a more coherent theology from the Supernal-focused guilds. Magnagora was like that when I was there too, so maybe it's just me who cares about the theological underpinnings of various doctrines and laws, but I'd really like to see people praying to the Saints. Or recognizing that they even exist. And wondering about the effects of various actions on their soul, about life after death, the Light, the nature of evil and all of that. Most people just seem to shrug their shoulders and go with "Light=Goodness=Christian Morality" or "Light=Christian Morality=Rage Against Gothically" or "Taint=Satanism=Jesus Elohora Compels You!" instead of engaging the ideas as a coherent philosophy.

    The Aquamancers seem to be in a good place, RP-wise, as trying to find a way to cleanse, contain and reverse the Taint. Similarly, the Tahtetso have a wonderful RP basis in Lumosis that doesn't get nearly enough love. Even the Cantors have their Rhapsody/Flock of Miracles thing going on as an aside to the Supernals.
    A while back I had gotten Glevich to send Eventru an email asking for the chance to expand more on some rp for the Aquamancers, and he added in some lore info available to us that had me thinking of some pretty cool ideas, but then he left and due to personal matters I haven't really had the chance to get back to it, but hopefully I can at some point.
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • MaellioMaellio Member Posts: 488 Fabled
    edited September 2013
    @Saran the last attempt at Castes [and the one I'd try to draw some inspiration from] actually was more an attempt at building each of the semi-canonical castes [Scientist, Artist, Merchant, Bureaucrat, and Warrior] into equal standing options that each offered tailored RP/mechanical reward [that bit, combined with the divide of labour, probably leading primarily to it stalemating].

    And, if we can get eventually get through all the Articles it'd definitely be the interpretation Mael would push for IC [there are even 5 which makes the Zvoo portion of his brain tingle], as hierarchy just doesn't stick in his [or my] mind when thinking of the Collective. Mael would however argue that no caste is greater than any other, beyond maybe the uncasted servants and then it's the duty of the Casted to protect and enrich them [ though lingering thoughts of Bureaucratic being the true power in the Collective would be entertained if not acted on >.=.> ]

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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    Maellio said:
    @Saran the last attempt at Castes [and the one I'd try to draw some inspiration from] actually was more an attempt at building each of the semi-canonical castes [Scientist, Artist, Merchant, Bureaucrat, and Warrior] into equal standing options that each offered tailored RP/mechanical reward [that bit, combined with the divide of labour, probably leading primarily to it stalemating].

    And, if we can get eventually get through all the Articles it'd definitely be the interpretation Mael would push for IC [there are even 5 which makes the Zvoo portion of his brain tingle], as hierarchy just doesn't stick in his [or my] mind when thinking of the Collective. Mael would however argue that no caste is greater than any other, beyond maybe the uncasted servants and then it's the duty of the Casted to protect and enrich them [ though lingering thoughts of Bureaucratic being the true power in the Collective would be entertained if not acted on >.=.> ]

    That sounds good, like... I think I could have quite some fun with the bureaucrats. But I also believe that everyone, except maybe the servants, should be encouraged to believe that their caste is secretly the most important to the collective.

    Though I think the main thing that's standing in the way of this is actually the guilds and their being tied loosely to the castes. Like the Sentinels kinda being the warriors and the Institute kinda being the scholars.
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  • RancouraRancoura the Last Nightwreathed Queen CanadaMember Posts: 1,340 Transcendent
    edited September 2013

    I, as those who know me/Rancoura will find obvious, have always seen Glomdoring as truly a Heart of Darkness - a steadfast bearer of dark beauty (slightly horrific but still tasteful) coupled with the sense of superiority based simply on knowing the secrets of Night, Crow, and being a child of the Wyrd, etc. - possessing strength earned through trial and tribulation - a merciless entity to be feared and awed - completely worthy of utter and eternal devotion. This is the reputation we once had, and while I feel that much of that identity has been lost or otherwise drastically changed (aside from those few who still stick to these ideals, but as Svorai said - most of the people here now are just too nice), in my heart I don't think I've lost complete faith in the possibility that Glomdoring can regain it, despite the disappointments I've personally faced.

    I feel as though one of the major causes of the loss of Glomdoring's merciless RP is due simply to the loss of many key characters who shaped Glomdoring and its lore in the beginning of its life (I don't think I need to specify names), whether they simply stopped playing or moved to a different organization altogether. With these characters absent and thus unable to pass down the lore, traditions, and etiquette, bits and pieces were lost over time to the point where mercilessness is now scarce and not nearly as valued as it was in the past.

    Of those "old school Gloms" who do remain in the forest, it seems to me that they have simply remained silent while the forest "softened" - I myself am guilty of this. Though, while I have made some attempts (some recent but most near the beginning of what I call "the decline" of Glom RP) to rekindle the old spirit of wyrden elitism and decorum among other things, to my great chagrin I found myself met with high levels of resistance or indifference if not outright rejection (I remember once being indirectly dismissed as "a frigid old hag").  Needless to say, this, along with the absence of many of the kindred spirits I grew as a roleplayer with, was discouraging.

    It's difficult not to feel obsolete when the general mindset of the masses differs so much from your own. I understand and have accepted the fact that Glom's current softness encourages more players to both join and stay in this "non-toxic" org, however this has come at the cost of losing much of the lore that once made Glomdoring so awe-inspiring. Further, as a result my (and I refer to myself, the player) have lost a great amount of love for both Glomdoring and the game. It saddens me to admit it, and I apologize if this bit is off-topic, but I feel it's relevant to the discussion.


    Anyhow, it's very late, I'm very tired, and so I apologize if parts of this are long-winded/irrelevant/too personal/what-have-you. If need be I'll make changes when rested.


    Tonight amidst the mountaintops   
    And endless starless night   
    Singing how the wind was lost   
    Before an earthly flight
  • ShaddusShaddus His Imperial Altness Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,652 Transcendent
    Maellio said:

    @Saran the last attempt at Castes [and the one I'd try to draw some inspiration from] actually was more an attempt at building each of the semi-canonical castes [Scientist, Artist, Merchant, Bureaucrat, and Warrior] into equal standing options that each offered tailored RP/mechanical reward [that bit, combined with the divide of labour, probably leading primarily to it stalemating].


    And, if we can get eventually get through all the Articles it'd definitely be the interpretation Mael would push for IC [there are even 5 which makes the Zvoo portion of his brain tingle], as hierarchy just doesn't stick in his [or my] mind when thinking of the Collective. Mael would however argue that no caste is greater than any other, beyond maybe the uncasted servants and then it's the duty of the Casted to protect and enrich them [ though lingering thoughts of Bureaucratic being the true power in the Collective would be entertained if not acted on >.=.> ]
    No more articles until you pass my Decorum Articles. I don't care -what- Tulemrah says, the act of being nude isn't a form of art.
    If I'm not good enough for Lusternia, then it is no longer good enough for me.
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spotMember Posts: 4,318 Transcendent
    Tulemrah said that?!
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