Brainstorming and Discussion upon MD/SD sleeplock

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Comments

  • What  about making Succumb a mental cure and making it last on the games cure priorities. Would that be too  much?


  • Considering how fast hexes is, yes, it'd basically be incurable succumb all the time.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Yeah, I feel like putting succumb at the end of the cure priority is a bad idea unless you drastically lower its mana drain %... it's a passive affliction, it will keep on going while you do anything else, and as long as you keep another mental aff on the line ahead of it they can only cure it using focus balance / power.  Doesn't seem very balanced since it can then just be plopped right back on and require more power (or waiting for focus balance).
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    It's not a good idea to flat make it jinx-like, but there could be some limited version of the same treatment that would be workable. Like powerspikes - it isn't last on steam cures, but is last on the auric subset of steam cures. 
  • This thread is an ecouragement to those of us who were on the backline for years.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • Does Succumb still drain mana on-hit? Or is it all from the ticks?

    One idea drawn from all the other ideas is:'

    1) move Succumb to be a mental aff
    2) lunacy costs 3p and requires at least 2 mentalaffs to stick (sort of like Paradigmatics Truename)
    2) make Succumb's on-hit mana drain to be something like [flat amount + 5% for every mental aff aside from Succumb] (requires lunacy, otherwise Succumb only does the flat amount

    Numbers can be tweaked as needed.

    See you in Sapience.
  • Can't figure out how to edit on a phone.

    The above suggestion also removes the delayed curing of Succumb, and gives it no prioritization in slush curing. The target can either focus cure Succumb and risk building up mental affs, or cure mental affs to lessen the drain of Succumb.

    See you in Sapience.
  • It drains on cast and on tic. 

    Succumb needs to be spirit, it's too strong to share mental.
  • Spirit also sounds like a good choice

  • Suggestion:

    Skill A/Succumb change: -Afflicts X, which costs (n power, 3-5?) this lasts 10* seconds, and dissipates if another is cast while active.
    -will tick 2/3* times, dealing flat mana damage while active
    -getting hit by any mental afflictions will also deal separate additional mana damage when active
    -optional: ticking may also scale depending on the number of mental afflictions it has
    -optional: casting it again will deal burst mana damage depending on number of mental afflictions

    I believe this can address the mana burst route, and allow multiple moondancers to help in the mana drain process, because that is also one of the (minor) problems of MDs right now. In a team fight, usually one is sufficient. Feel free to toggle the power cost, the duration, the number of ticks, and the amount of mana each instance drains.
  • edited May 2016
    Additionally, if we want to remove aeon, on top of this, we can make wane the ability that deals massive burst mana damage depending on number of mental afflictions, that costs 4* power, requires target to be suffering from Succumb, prematurely cancels out Succumb, and removes the mental afflictions.

    optional: otherwise just make it an active mana drain, if target does not have succumb.
  • edited May 2016
    The thing is, of the 10 spiritual affs, 4 are aurics. Great if a bard is there, not so much if otherwise. There's aeon through Wane, but that's 4 seconds of eq. I don't think it's possible to stick both aeon and succumb without a sleeplock thrown in.

    How often does Dark tick, and how long does the effect last? Right now, I think it deals mental affs. Maybe it can be switched over to do spiritual affs instead.

    * if Succumb is also moved to spiritual, that is.
    See you in Sapience.
  • Dark lasts for one minute, and hits six times (every ten seconds).

    Having lash back would be mildly fun, but the mana drain can't really be an expensive power skill, no matter how powerful. Even if it's just 3, you'll recover the mana long before the eight seconds until we have the power to toad on it again anyway.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • Hexes + aeon + succumb really shouldn't be overly difficult to land for a good combatant that thinks about what they are hexing.
  • Hexes + aeon + succumb really shouldn't be overly difficult to land for a good combatant that thinks about what they are hexing.
    I thought one of the objectives was to make it so that combatant MDs aren't shoehorned into Hexes, like SDs.
    See you in Sapience.
  • What? "I don't think it's possible to stick both aeon and succumb." Yes it is. 

    You have to account for hexes. 
  • Twytch said:
    I thought one of the objectives was to make it so that combatant MDs aren't shoehorned into Hexes, like SDs.
    ?


    See you in Sapience.
  • What? "I don't think it's possible to stick both aeon and succumb." Yes it is. 

    You have to account for hexes. 
    !
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    edited May 2016
    The whole reason they even go for the sleeplock is to stick affs under waning. That's part of the problem I was alluding to earlier.
  • Azula's suggestion is actually not bad - it doesn't remove sleeplocks, and that could be considered or incorporated somehow, but other than that, a guarantee'd 2-3 tick of mana drain with mental aff synergy and a burst that requires said aff is a good idea. The waning she suggests doesn't need to cost power, it just needs to be less effective than usual if the target doesn't have enough mental affs to trigger the big burst - the idea is to allow them to have enough power to do a toadcurse if they are successful, but punish them by slowing them down or resetting their offense if they use it without properly building up beforehand.


    Azula said:
    Suggestion:

    Skill A/Succumb change: -Afflicts X, which costs (n power, 3-5?) this lasts 10* seconds, and dissipates if another is cast while active.
    -will tick 2/3* times, dealing flat mana damage while active
    -getting hit by any mental afflictions will also deal separate additional mana damage when active
    -optional: ticking may also scale depending on the number of mental afflictions it has
    -optional: casting it again will deal burst mana damage depending on number of mental afflictions

    I believe this can address the mana burst route, and allow multiple moondancers to help in the mana drain process, because that is also one of the (minor) problems of MDs right now. In a team fight, usually one is sufficient. Feel free to toggle the power cost, the duration, the number of ticks, and the amount of mana each instance drains.
    The power cost probably needs to be ~3 or so, so that there is enough time to regen power for a toadcurse at the end of it if needed. Being time limited and having a very short window, the drain (both on cast and ticks) will definitely need to scale to mental affs, otherwise, they can't get enough vitals pressure to churn out the burst needed. 
    Azula said:
    Additionally, if we want to remove aeon, on top of this, we can make wane the ability that deals massive burst mana damage depending on number of mental afflictions, that costs 4* power, requires target to be suffering from Succumb, prematurely cancels out Succumb, and removes the mental afflictions.

    optional: otherwise just make it an active mana drain, if target does not have succumb.
    If succumb is not active, just have it do nothing. That's a punishing enough deterrent to spamming it, and justifying making it cost no power (if it cost power, the MD can't toadcurse after). Scale the mana damage up dramatically for mental affs, though, as an execute style ability that removes succumb and cures the mental afflictions, it is basically meant as a finisher, with no recourse afterwards for anything except toadcurse. If it works, it works, if not, the fight is reset.

  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    edited May 2016
    I like Azula's idea too. It's more what I was leaning toward. Making succumb last a short time but incurable would remove the need for an aeon lock to stick it and makes the mana drain more viable. Obviously the mana drain on succumb would need to be scaled to account for the fact that it's incurable, and we'd just need to find a way to make mental affs build up in a manner that's both viable and balanced.
  • Okay so my todo list:

    Remove forceable metawake off
    Rework Succumb (I'm liking Cyndarin's and Azula's suggestion) and making it a spirit affliction cured by steam
    Rework some of the fae to more relevant affs
    Remove the barrier from Full and have this changed to a different effect.

  • LuceLuce Fox Populi
    Maybe instead of a barrier, Full takes your HME, grabs the percentages, evens them out, and restores/reduces the pools to that new balanced number? So, like, if the user is 50% health, 75% mana, 100% ego, then uses Full, the skill pulls the three numbers (50, 75, 100), adds them together (225), divides the total percentage by 3 (75), then sets all three pools to 75%. 

    That leaves it as a powerful defensive skill since it means they can mitigate focused pressure (25, 100, 100 > 75, 75, 75) but it doesn't make them immortal or save them by itself. Give it a power cost commensurate with the ability's strength, and maybe some way to prevent it being spammable if that cost is too low.

    But I'm not a heavy PKer, so I'm not sure how powerful this is.
  • edited July 2016
    *Retracted*
  • I still saw it. That report was not Azula's suggestion. 

    The report had two major issues, as I outlined in the report itself:

    1) It made succumb incurable. 

    2) It made the succumb tic every 10 seconds.



    Succumb as an incurable aff just isn't going to happen. At least not for me. I hate incurable affs, I don't want to see more added to the game. They are nightmares to balance and I believe in a game that allows for plays and counter plays. 

    Once every ten seconds is extremely slow, and as I made clear, there's just no reason to self nerf that severely. We'd just have to revisit it again, so I opposed it. (you are welcome)

    That is not an outright rejection of the premise. The report's details were just bad. 
  • edited July 2016
    As a note, Ryboi has put the report back up with new solutions based of Azula's suggestions. The comments on the previous solution were lost, unfortunately, but since the solutions were changed quite a bit, a fresh look at the report might not be a bad idea, since the premise does have some merit, I feel.

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