(I am not speaking to or about anybody directly at any point in this post.)
How to tell when you're going too far:
Did you continue an antagonistic action because you, the player, justified it with a thought such as, "they deserve it"?
You've gone too far.
Yes, our characters should have people they hate, and oppose, and hinder, but it is our job as players who realize that this is a game to keep the actions of our characters within reasonable lines. If you personally feel that your in-game enemies deserve to suffer, you need to reel it in. Even if it's because "they did it first!" Ok? So? Did you like being on the receiving end of it? Probably not. So why would you perpetuate the cycle? There's no victory in "vengeance", and the moral high ground is imaginary.
There's a lot that could be said, but let me ignore everything and every player for a bit and focus on the story. I'm a dungeon master, I've held dozens of adventurers hands as they went through stories I imagined, and I write for fun in my spare time. Let's examine the tropes of things that have been pointed out here:
"Why would you leave this place with no explanation and go to a place that is the polar opposite, joining with a Divine just as opposite to the one you were just an Avatar of? It makes no sense!"
Here's what we call a dynamic shift. A player takes a radical move, and their character undergoes a serious change of heart (hart, haha, I get it) because the things they see as right are now glaringly wrong to them. Don't you dare look at me and say that you've held the same viewpoints you have since a child just as strongly to your chest as you did then. Don't you dare tell me you haven't advanced or grown in your own story, abandoning things you saw as wrong or incorrect to make yourself a better person.
A Lisaeran Avatar disenchanted from Her order, from Her teachings, come to Magnagora and surrounded by a literal fucktonne of subliminal messaging would - without doubt - find their way to Fain. Fain, the Masque who teaches Hatred, who teaches that it is entirely right to embrace the dark emotions within you and turn them to serving your advancement. Fain, who was betrayed by Lisaera and cast out by those He was trying to save and trying to protect, now turned against Them. No character could ever possibly find a connection with that, right?
You're not empathising, not seeing the role-playing game from the roleplay perspective. Sure, you have valid reason to be mad, but the character has valid logic to follow this path.
"False equivalence!!!!"
I've been on both sides of this argument. I've been griefed and I have intentionally gone out of my way to make things difficult and almost unenjoyable for other people. I've been the only defender on Nil and been told by the Fist (Nihilist GC) that there was no reason for me to defend the demons, that they didn't matter. I've been trying to do something because it felt right for my character to do it and felt helpless because I was woefully outmatched in skill.
I've also used what skills I do have to make the game unenjoyable for multiple Magnagorans at a time. Once I left and I found anger brewing OOCly, I didn't stop and quash it like I should have. I pushed my character to do something she shouldn't have, and repeatedly raised an smob that took a large group to kill and prevented any Magnagoran from completing their epic quest until it was done, which was often quite difficult. I delighted in it because I knew who was in rotation, I was directly hurting the people that had hurt me. I enjoyed hearing them lament when just months before I had been told, almost verbatim, to "suck it up, buttercup".
This is not an excuse. (Phoebus just posted this same point) This is how the cycle renews itself, this is how we keep having these same problems all the time. The majority of you don't care to admit it, but you're just like me. You get upset when people are unfair to you, to your characters, and no one wants to let it go. You want to get even. Hell, you want to win. You aren't looking at yourself to say 'my behaviour is wrong, I need to stop'. What happens after you do stop? You find that people are distrustful, that they won't believe you've changed, and you have to constantly strive to prove that you are a different person. Some people do this by changing their behaviour in who they target. Others change their behaviour entirely, and shoulder the distrust until they've proven without a doubt that they've grown.
You all love to whinge and point fingers, because the only thing better than not being hurt is the righteous indignation of someone else being worse than you. Face your own problematic behaviour (toxic behaviour in clans, spitefully blaming each other instead of calming down and returning with a clean face, and downright dismissing other people's problems because they don't effect you, etc.) and you'll be surprised how much of this shit starts to clear up.
Maybe you shouldn't be dicks to people and then wonder why they hold grudges against you.
There's an awful lot of hypocrisy in this thread. But there's a reason several of us leave out-of-character clans. Lots of people enjoy pointing the blame at whoever they can as long as it isn't them, and use that as an excuse not to address their own problematic behaviour.
today I'm frustrated at my limitations while simultaneously reminded again that the reason I'm a law abiding citizen is because I'm not smart enough to plan a crime and get away with it. :~[
There are certain norms that should be respected to help the community:
You shouldn't ever repeatedly hunt someone down. If you even want to do it once, you better have a great RP reason, not just that it's an enemy. Just let people do their thing and enjoy the game!
Raiding is basically opt in PK. Nobody is obligated to defend, and you shouldn't raid beyond the point where anyone wants to defend.
Considering raids are for opt in PK, you should never run away, only to come back later when a certain defender leaves, but if numbers are overwhelmingly against you, feel free to walk out.
You shouldn't raid when the only possible outcome is you winning.
Now, I abide strictly by these rules, believe it or not. What's difficult is knowing when people don't want to defend any more, or who's around, and whether the only outcome is winning.
This is why I send those tells which are supposedly griefing you. "Do you guys want to keep fighting?", "Do you have any defenders around?". I need this information to make fair decisions.
Now, in reality I make mistakes. I'm sure I've been on raids that weren't ever going to lose, and I've raided longer than anyone wanted to defend. I promise you that was never my intention, real life just works that way. I just don't know every detail, a lot of times that information comes to light later.
I'm sorry @Dylara that you were so frustrated by my raids. I may have griefed you, but I promise that was never my intention. That is why I got so defensive.
TL:DR The norm of: "I don't want to fight you, leave me alone!" should always be respected.
edit: ack sorry, the formatting didn't look so bad on my phone
Raiding is basically opt in PK. Nobody is obligated to defend, and you shouldn't raid beyond the point where anyone wants to defend.
I think this is the most illogical statement ever and a real flimsy excuse to justify raiding.
Lusternia is both a conflict and roleplaying game. People are playing roles, roles that for some orgs certainly require defense of your stuff. Telling someone that they 'are not obligated to defend' is telling them that their RP is invalid. @Saz specifically mentioned that he felt he needed to defend because of his RP.
I won't ever judge anyone for deciding not to deal with the raid and doing something else, but lets not invalidate the people that don't do that because you want to get your PK on.
Considering raids are for opt in PK, you should never run away, only to come back later when a certain defender leaves, but if numbers are overwhelmingly against you, feel free to walk out.
See now this one is a tricky one, the numbers thing, because you (not you personally but just a general you for everyone) running when large amounts of people show up can look a lot like a kick and run raid. You have a raid of one or two people then there's triple the number of people who show up and you step out? That looks like a kick and run raid.
Or when someone shows up who can meld or break and then suddenly the enemy team disappears as well, that looks like a kick and run "I only want to fight when I've got overwhelming odds raid," Not mentioning any names but I know there have been raids I've been defending over in faethorn that have literally stopped the instant when a melder like Crek shows up and the people involved have admitted its because they don't think they can fight against a melder. Or I've defended Nil before against larger numbers that suddenly disappear when Synkarin shows up.
Like for an example myself I've raided on my own as soon as I've logged in to kill ladies in a counter to all the daughters getting killed when no one was around to defend and then I've left when five people show up, I've then returned to give it a go again once the numbers drop down and only two or three people came to fight me, so is that me being a kick and run griefy raider or is that me just running from overwhelming numbers and then coming back to fight more balanced numbers?
I think the issue most people have with the raids is how long they go on. Or when they happen when no one is around so it feels like you need to respond when you log in.
With that, this is a point that was raised before in terms of new ideas for the game. PVP is a big part of the game right and the only conflict points are revolts, domoths and wildnodes.
Wildnodes are every two weeks and revolts basically every week roughly so most of the time there is no outlet for the pvp aspect of the game other than raiding. Other IRE games have smaller more frequent pvp events to give people something to do. Domoths are kind odd in that it requires the player to actually start them when a good fight is ready to go. So far I've only seen Synkarin, Lerad and Ixion deliberatly start a domoth when there were larger numbers of enemies around to fight. Most of the other domoths are done when there is 0 chance of opposition or if your lucky I see a domoth done when its 2:1 odds.
So right now as it stands raiding is the only choice for people who want to roleplay fights in the game and enjoy the pvp aspect of the game.
Its a simple fix, more conflict events more frequently or more conflict zones in neutralish areas.
Raiding is basically opt in PK. Nobody is obligated to defend, and you shouldn't raid beyond the point where anyone wants to defend.
I think this is the most illogical statement ever and a real flimsy excuse to justify raiding.
Lusternia is both a conflict and roleplaying game. People are playing roles, roles that for some orgs certainly require defense of your stuff. Telling someone that they 'are not obligated to defend' is telling them that their RP is invalid. @Saz specifically mentioned that he felt he needed to defend because of his RP.
I won't ever judge anyone for deciding not to deal with the raid and doing something else, but lets not invalidate the people that don't do that because you want to get your PK on.
There's nothing stopping them from sending an OOC tell saying: "I don't want to defend any more, please go away."
If people don't want to defend then you shouldn't really be raiding. If they're defending and they don't tell you anything until days later by crying on the forums, what is a raider supposed to do?
Also, what about when 3 people want to defend, but the fourth doesn't despite feeling RP obligated? Should I just not raid ever because someone can't take a death?
There's griefing, and there's being overly sensitive to any raiding. We have to try to stay in the middle.
A lot of this "opt in PK" would be true if a lot of people raiding were in it for actual fights, and not quick ganks.
This is the same repeat behaviour from previous years, which culminates around ascension season when one side that has spent its time almost exclusively fighting in favourable outcomes and avoiding conflict where a loss is more certain than a win, suddenly bemoan how they're losing to x y and z, and you get the mentality of "why bother, I'm just going to log off and come back after this is done."
If half the people who claimed they're in it "for the fights" stuck around to fight when there's a real brawl going, we wouldn't have this problem of one sided ascension season.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I agree, but you are trying to say the middle is this clearcut line when it's not. It's hazy and it may change from day to day what annoys people.
If someone just constantly tells you that they don't want to defend are you just going to leave each and every time? How many times does someone need to die to you before you say it's ok to say 'hey I'm done?' It isn't a black and white issue, and trying to make it one, by saying 'just tell me' or 'you don't have to defend' is a pretty crappy thing to do.
That's when you basically have to go off of reputation. Part of the issue is that I had falsely understood Dylara to be a willing fighter. Once she made it clear that it was a pain, I stopped counting her, and I think things got better for her. The point is, a raider won't necessarily know unless the defender communicates that they're getting frustrated. This is where I think a tell would work better than running to the forums.
Sometimes though it's unavoidable, I want to raid and have some PK when there are some willing people around. Sometimes unwilling participants will get drawn in.
Edit: Yes, it is hard to define exactly what the middle ground is, but we can only make our best effort to find it and toe it.
I do believe that raiding just to stress-test your system, check your survivability, try out a new killmethod under duress, or something along those lines is justified with minimal, even flimsy RP intent.
What I don't buy is people having a "sacred purpose" to *raid for 8 hours. *chop elders. *hit and run (copious amounts of times). *return once all the defenders get bored and go back to what they were doing before, i.e. leave the contested area.
At least the people above are shooting straight, imo.
Here's a serious question, even though this is derailing further.
Every single PKer in the game needs practice getting out of rooms that have 5+ angry people targeting them (allies to help escape optional). This is especially true for melders, leaders and domoth claimers (vernals usually). I don't think that's a fact that can be disputed. So, the question is, how can you personally create situations that you need to try and get away from -without- kicking a Daughter or whatever and seeing if you can survive/get away/even snag some kills from the defenders' onslaught, so that you can practice?
This is, essentially, the hit and run dilemma, imo.
Hit and run isn't when you kick the hornet's nest and jump in head first till it becomes too much and it's time to gtfo.
Hit and run is when you hit stuff until people you know you can't easily gank show up, or show up in numbers too many to have an easy time against and running before they even reach the room you're in.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
As crystal shards fall from the sky, Avechna turns His head, distracted by something shiny in the distance.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm just annoyed. Trying to speak completely objectively here: Avurekhos raided Glomdoring a -lot-, especially when Caerlyr was around. Now he's doing the same thing to Serenwilde. And it seems like most people are changing their tune to fit the alliance. It bothers me.
This bothers me. Is the perception that Avurekhos and Caerlyr raiding on Glom was celebrated and accepted? Because that's a hilariously wrong picture of what happened in either of those cases.
A lost Nexus of Power emerges on the Grey Moors! Avechna declares that the struggle to possess the Claws of Shanth is not His concern. NOTE: This is a PK Open event within the confines of the Grey Moors.
Honestly I think people need to make/join wargames more. They're as opt-in as you can get and you'll know that everyone who is fighting there actually want to fight.
I'm just annoyed. Trying to speak completely objectively here: Avurekhos raided Glomdoring a -lot-, especially when Caerlyr was around. Now he's doing the same thing to Serenwilde. And it seems like most people are changing their tune to fit the alliance. It bothers me.
This bothers me. Is the perception that Avurekhos and Caerlyr raiding on Glom was celebrated and accepted? Because that's a hilariously wrong picture of what happened in either of those cases.
There certainly wasn't a great amount of public demonstration to suggest otherwise.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I'm just annoyed. Trying to speak completely objectively here: Avurekhos raided Glomdoring a -lot-, especially when Caerlyr was around. Now he's doing the same thing to Serenwilde. And it seems like most people are changing their tune to fit the alliance. It bothers me.
This bothers me. Is the perception that Avurekhos and Caerlyr raiding on Glom was celebrated and accepted? Because that's a hilariously wrong picture of what happened in either of those cases.
There's a lot to be said, but I think I can condense a lot of it down to this:
- Let defenders have their victory if they cut your group to size a few times, stay put for a weave or so. - Limit your rampages to a certain length, say less then an hour.
I love the idea of having more optional-ish open-pk events, but I will daresay they won't fix what's seren currently experiencing and I do doubt that it would've fixed the previous rounds.
I agree with what @Phoebus said on the matter, and I also some points @Tremula said. As well meant as any IC solutions to this may be, I don't think they will really pan out, as they will force compromises that the characters are not willing to do / are not really something they would make.
Honestly I think people need to make/join wargames more. They're as opt-in as you can get and you'll know that everyone who is fighting there actually want to fight.
I wouldn't mind more wargames at all! There is something different between actual world PK and arena, though, especially if you feel like you are helping your org through the PK.
Honestly I think people need to make/join wargames more. They're as opt-in as you can get and you'll know that everyone who is fighting there actually want to fight.
I wouldn't mind more wargames at all! There is something different between actual world PK and arena, though, especially if you feel like you are helping your org through the PK.
That is the problem though. People don't want to have to feel like they're not helping their org by not PKing. A regular PK event like shardfall/foci would be good for those who want to PK, but it might actually have an adverse effect on those who don't want to be PKing every time they log in but feel compelled to because of their characters' RP. These systems would also do absolutely nothing for the types of raids being discussed here - the instigators aren't looking for PK.
To be fair I often try to start wargames, especially when the fights seem unfair. I definitely wouldn't mind more! I prefer fighting with my org-mates though, and practicing against southern combos.
Honestly I think people need to make/join wargames more. They're as opt-in as you can get and you'll know that everyone who is fighting there actually want to fight.
I wouldn't mind more wargames at all! There is something different between actual world PK and arena, though, especially if you feel like you are helping your org through the PK.
That is the problem though. People don't want to have to feel like they're not helping their org by not PKing. A regular PK event like shardfall/foci would be good for those who want to PK, but it might actually have an adverse effect on those who don't want to be PKing every time they log in but feel compelled to because of their characters' RP. These systems would also do absolutely nothing for the types of raids being discussed here - the instigators aren't looking for PK.
It would completely remove any excuse they had though
My internet cut out during Stage 3 of Knowledge last night. Bummer
I called Fios to see what the issue was, and there was a local outage. Being about midnight, I told the rep that they just cost me a domoth, to which she turned around and offered me 3 months of HBO/Showtime/Starz to make up for the loss.
Woo to tired rambling getting me free stuff.
My internet is still down at my house though. Booooo
I've read each and every response numerous times in the past two days and I've typed then deleted a lot of drafts. At some point I decided to remain quiet to observe how things would proceed. I've obviously spent a lot more time on the forums than in the game itself.
I'm seriously surprised though, with how much resonance that post generated. With how others could empathize with the experience. (Sorry to hear that, @Dylara.) With how well the majority grasped what I was trying to tell. It's honestly impressive and most unexpected for me.
Thanks for all the support. But I have given it some thought and I feel as though the resonance/support is here and at that scale because I've struck a nerve that was irritating plenty, rather than simply another player quitting the game. Nevertheless, I appreciate it!
I think, I'll eventually and slowly crawl my way back into Lusternia sometime soon.
Disclaimer's note: About the Spoiler Boxes below. Most of you really don't want to read them. They contain IC information, they are at huge length. Nothing further than elaboration of the first post after the questions asked/points raised either. Ignore this note at your own peril.
"Ponder the idea that the person raiding you used to raid others, and you didn't try to stop it. Ponder the idea that other people have likely quit because they kept getting raided constantly." "My point is that you really shouldn't say I can't "invalidate someone's feelings" and in almost the same breath invalidate Avurekhos' rp and why he does what he does." "Avurekhos, who I've been roleplaying with and quite literally twisting to use as a weapon to strike at Lisaera, has a reason to raid. If you bothered to rp with Magnagora, or even Shaddus (who you'll notice is unenemied to your city and order), maybe you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Avurekhos."
-----Response------
I did not want to dwell into this. Giving the person a name and then discussing it on a personal level, those are what I tried to avoid. But truthfully? It is doable. If I believed what you have stated as this is how a character grows, then I would keep quiet surely. But I've 3 examples to disconnect what Avu has been doing from actual character progression. And when I do, those arguments seem more of conforming RP excuses designed for the player rather than actual IC reasons. (First two examples are more subjective, but you can skip to third for the ultimate point.)
First and foremost, Saz and Avurekhos know each other in game. And I used to talk with Avu's player OOCly, as well. It was mostly about learning things about the game. But one thing I can confirm is, he was bored back then. (Pre-Election) He felt like he had to make a move to renew his interest in the game and he was speaking openly about it. I can't be the only person that knows this, either. I still don't believe it's a false thing to do for him. It's nice in a manner that he has found a new purpose. Though you can see, it isn't really fitting to what's argued with it being perfectly IC.
And, before he has made the move. Avurekhos was not playing much either. Ever since I've started playing I've never seen him raid. Even if I had, I don't think Saz'd hold enough voice to stop him. (That's for the pondering bit, in the quotation.) If Saz -had- that voice though, he'd probably try stopping him. Players who know my different players in other games can confirm this, though it's an unnecessarily long shot at the moment. Just observe Saz, in future. Back to the point, I remember clearly how Avu used to idle in a manse for weeks which is further supporting that he was just bored with how things were. I will go bold and state he wanted to lose the election through inactivity. That's my personal opinion, not necessarily the truth behind it.
To be fair he did take Saz out to some hunting and to a flare too. Last thing Avu said to Saz was that he was proud of him. But then the infamous election happened. Along with Saz almost half of Serenwilde voted for Avu, I don't know how this much support can be portrayed as a betrayal in any sense. But on the next day we saw him turning against the Forest. To be honest? There was no shock. We had seen it coming. I mean, we knew IC and OOC that he was going to do it so the objection here is not at all to whatever path his character is taking. I did personally support his decision as well. The problem is with the behaviors and how they effect other players.
Second example is from those endless raids, i've had plenty of time to observe. And I've witnessed at least twice when Avurekhos dived head first to guarded Nexus rooms after spending some time waiting in Etherwilde. To suicide, obviously when there was no Ladies/Fight/Noncoms. Now, I'd gladly read how that is justified in Magnagoran culture or how glorious it is to self sacrifice for nothing, but sincerely it just felt like he was bored again and unsurprisingly, he'd return soon after to raid again.
Third example is the probably the only objective one. Even if everything that's done had been in IC limits. I don't think you can validate this much of lengthy and collective griefing (In the forms of Elder Chopping/Raiding/Constant jumping whichever is more suitable at the time being.) to make amends with a faction or a Divine or vice versa. If he had been doing all of those, less frequently that surely would've been adequate for any purpose unless there's a seriously high standard that incentivizes harming the game. And no one probably would've been complaining about it. But as it's been so determinedly demonstrated, there has to be a different sort of motivation behind this. And what's that? Boredom? Or does he hate us? It can be anything, and I'm not the one to answer what's his motivation.
I mean, as you see despite Saz had done absolutely nothing to incinerate whatever beef there's. (Saz is not an enemy of Magnagora either, as a side note.) He got jumped over 20 times by the same person. Not as a response or anything either. And yes, I think it's too much to be one sided but the fact that I'm usually content with that isn't even enough. We also need to pay greater redemption for our characters' unforgivable sin of sticking with their org for days and many days to come. A realization of how the status quo will continue is what has bugged me enough so I've typed that first post.
It's so valiantly voiced that Avu is a roleplayer and that's what roleplaying extends to. Well, everyone here is a roleplayer. Yet a party here is constantly being forced to leave their RP sessions in half, hunting in half, quests in half or they can choose to undermine their characters' RP by ignoring the constant call of duty. Almost everyday, for multiple hours. And this was the general focus of my first post. That's not a great RP opportunity, that's griefing.
Generally quoting, but not her words directly. "I don't play the game on the Forums, why do you?" "Solve things IC, not here. Why didn't you try diplomacy?" "Put pressure on your Leaders or replace them."
-----Response-----
If everything was accountable IC, then the Issuing system wouldn't even be in the place for resolutions. I didn't believe I should issue as I didn't think I'd login/bother again while I was typing that first post. Perhaps, I should've done that. Perhaps, this has turned out to be better, as there seems to be a general discontent about the length of raids anyways.
With Diplomacy and Roleplay almost anything is possible. There's no denying that. But throughout this post, I'll try to explain why the problem is more OOC than it's IC. Firstly, it doesn't make much IC sense to attempt the advised method. The griefing in this situation is ultimately helping the cause of your character's organization to quote the words. "Magnagora wants to burn everything to the ground." It'd be very unorthodox if Serenwilde got to convince Magnagora to cease those actions without some compromise, because of Mag RP. The compromise is definitely not what Seren was looking into. Seren's pretty content to defend itself. The reaction of the Circle was not simply overlooking an option. It was a collective decision.
Breandryn did attempt to solve it through negotiations. And do you know which Leader encouraged her to do so? That was Saz. But he did not believe for an instant it'd help the situation along with rest of the Circle. Still, he wanted Breandryn to learn and study Mag, growing to see from where the Circle sees by her own experiences. He did not want to discourage Brea from trying, either. But yes, I didn't catch her quitting Seren nor I got to learn how the RP was going before she did. It boils down to my availability on that point. But it was never going to be of much importance anyways. Naturally too. Long story short, I don't think the approach of Leaders there demands a replacement/pressure from people or isn't generally acceptable from their RP perspective.
Saz didn't send Avurekhos a single tell until the other day, ever since he's quit Seren. Nor he received one. Not because I hate him, obviously. The conflict was obvious enough, I didn't really feel like we had to voice it as well. We -know- what his RP is. But after losing my 2 hours of prep work for Seren Epic and being have to wait almost another week to attempt once again on top of everything else. That was honestly the tipping point for me which lead to this outburst as a whole. But irrelevantly, I think no one should blame the victims stating they're not trying good enough to cope with their problems. And truthfully the problem is more of his, than it's mine or anyone's from Serenwilde or Magnagora. You can take me out from the equitation (The game, in this manner) and you will realize how the root of the problem remains intact.
And, no. I'm not trying to win at forums, nor harm your org-mate. You and your org won't lose anything if he stops harassing other players through IC means, either. I bet, everyone can perfectly settle for the destructive or self-proving villain RP/PK that causes less damage for everyone. The entire point was, I've just voiced concern for myself and others (Or at least, that's the intention) who were not able to "play this game" for a while now. An example of a day is in the spoiler box below.
Scrap everything seriously, and just put yourself in the shoes below. It'll be from -my- perspective and not Saz's. (Despite obviously, it isn't accurate for each and every day.)
I'm coming home to play the Lusternia:Age of Ascension. I'm logging in. I'm generally content to do some aetherhunting or some roleplaying, sometime about half an hour of PvP would be the icing on the cake, if i am lucky. Because I like it.
Mmf : "Hello". CT : "Ladies under attack" Alright, there we go. Hey Avu, hey guys. Okay, pvp first it's. It doesn't end, but assuming it somehow did. Back to Prime to only find out that:
X says, "We've lost Z Elders and we've Y totems to carve aswell." Alright... We'll take care of this, I got the Ironbark too. We got this. Go here, go there clean the mess Avu's left for us.
Spouse/Commune/Guild RP starts. CT yells. "Ladies under attack." Oh well, another time perhaps? We go there, my time runs out and perhaps our characters've stalwartly defended their home. And they're feeling rightfully proud. But, midnight already! it's time to QQ.
Looking back at what I've done, things surely did not go as planned. That usually happens it's fine. But seriously what else have I done other than generally playing with Avurekhos or the things he's caused during my time in Lusty? That's not what I intended to do, at all. It feels bad.
And I've finally logged out from Avurekhos: the Relentless Redemption, despite I've logged into Lusternia: the Age of Ascension earlier.
Repeat this for 3 weeks if not more, mix it with getting jumped here and there to get your various attempts interrupted. It gets truly nerve-racking in the end. Even if you love PvPing, I think everyone gets enough of it after some point.
Of course, not every time I log in I find myself into this. But that's more or less what happens frequently enough, the result is guaranteed.
So, that's what this is about. It's about me, not about the characters. Saz isn't tired with this. I am. Else, fights and raids can go on for zillion years in an IC sense for all I care. It's another reason why I don't think an IC resolution is plausible for this.
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
My internet cut out during Stage 3 of Knowledge last night. Bummer
I called Fios to see what the issue was, and there was a local outage. Being about midnight, I told the rep that they just cost me a domoth, to which she turned around and offered me 3 months of HBO/Showtime/Starz to make up for the loss.
Woo to tired rambling getting me free stuff.
My internet is still down at my house though. Booooo
Ok like I really want to know how the whole conversation went?
Like did she just go ok and act like she knew what you were talking about or did you spend like 10 mins explaining what a domoth was?
Comments
How to tell when you're going too far:
Did you continue an antagonistic action because you, the player, justified it with a thought such as, "they deserve it"?
You've gone too far.
Yes, our characters should have people they hate, and oppose, and hinder, but it is our job as players who realize that this is a game to keep the actions of our characters within reasonable lines. If you personally feel that your in-game enemies deserve to suffer, you need to reel it in. Even if it's because "they did it first!" Ok? So? Did you like being on the receiving end of it? Probably not. So why would you perpetuate the cycle? There's no victory in "vengeance", and the moral high ground is imaginary.
There's an awful lot of hypocrisy in this thread. But there's a reason several of us leave out-of-character clans. Lots of people enjoy pointing the blame at whoever they can as long as it isn't them, and use that as an excuse not to address their own problematic behaviour.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
There are certain norms that should be respected to help the community:
You shouldn't ever repeatedly hunt someone down. If you even want to do it once, you better have a great RP reason, not just that it's an enemy. Just let people do their thing and enjoy the game!
Raiding is basically opt in PK. Nobody is obligated to defend, and you shouldn't raid beyond the point where anyone wants to defend.
Considering raids are for opt in PK, you should never run away, only to come back later when a certain defender leaves, but if numbers are overwhelmingly against you, feel free to walk out.
You shouldn't raid when the only possible outcome is you winning.
Now, I abide strictly by these rules, believe it or not. What's difficult is knowing when people don't want to defend any more, or who's around, and whether the only outcome is winning.
This is why I send those tells which are supposedly griefing you. "Do you guys want to keep fighting?", "Do you have any defenders around?". I need this information to make fair decisions.
Now, in reality I make mistakes. I'm sure I've been on raids that weren't ever going to lose, and I've raided longer than anyone wanted to defend. I promise you that was never my intention, real life just works that way. I just don't know every detail, a lot of times that information comes to light later.
I'm sorry @Dylara that you were so frustrated by my raids. I may have griefed you, but I promise that was never my intention. That is why I got so defensive.
TL:DR
The norm of: "I don't want to fight you, leave me alone!" should always be respected.
edit: ack sorry, the formatting didn't look so bad on my phone
Lusternia is both a conflict and roleplaying game. People are playing roles, roles that for some orgs certainly require defense of your stuff. Telling someone that they 'are not obligated to defend' is telling them that their RP is invalid. @Saz specifically mentioned that he felt he needed to defend because of his RP.
I won't ever judge anyone for deciding not to deal with the raid and doing something else, but lets not invalidate the people that don't do that because you want to get your PK on.
See now this one is a tricky one, the numbers thing, because you (not you personally but just a general you for everyone) running when large amounts of people show up can look a lot like a kick and run raid. You have a raid of one or two people then there's triple the number of people who show up and you step out? That looks like a kick and run raid.
Or when someone shows up who can meld or break and then suddenly the enemy team disappears as well, that looks like a kick and run "I only want to fight when I've got overwhelming odds raid," Not mentioning any names but I know there have been raids I've been defending over in faethorn that have literally stopped the instant when a melder like Crek shows up and the people involved have admitted its because they don't think they can fight against a melder. Or I've defended Nil before against larger numbers that suddenly disappear when Synkarin shows up.
Like for an example myself I've raided on my own as soon as I've logged in to kill ladies in a counter to all the daughters getting killed when no one was around to defend and then I've left when five people show up, I've then returned to give it a go again once the numbers drop down and only two or three people came to fight me, so is that me being a kick and run griefy raider or is that me just running from overwhelming numbers and then coming back to fight more balanced numbers?
I think the issue most people have with the raids is how long they go on. Or when they happen when no one is around so it feels like you need to respond when you log in.
With that, this is a point that was raised before in terms of new ideas for the game. PVP is a big part of the game right and the only conflict points are revolts, domoths and wildnodes.
Wildnodes are every two weeks and revolts basically every week roughly so most of the time there is no outlet for the pvp aspect of the game other than raiding. Other IRE games have smaller more frequent pvp events to give people something to do. Domoths are kind odd in that it requires the player to actually start them when a good fight is ready to go. So far I've only seen Synkarin, Lerad and Ixion deliberatly start a domoth when there were larger numbers of enemies around to fight. Most of the other domoths are done when there is 0 chance of opposition or if your lucky I see a domoth done when its 2:1 odds.
So right now as it stands raiding is the only choice for people who want to roleplay fights in the game and enjoy the pvp aspect of the game.
Its a simple fix, more conflict events more frequently or more conflict zones in neutralish areas.
If people don't want to defend then you shouldn't really be raiding. If they're defending and they don't tell you anything until days later by crying on the forums, what is a raider supposed to do?
Also, what about when 3 people want to defend, but the fourth doesn't despite feeling RP obligated? Should I just not raid ever because someone can't take a death?
There's griefing, and there's being overly sensitive to any raiding. We have to try to stay in the middle.
This is the same repeat behaviour from previous years, which culminates around ascension season when one side that has spent its time almost exclusively fighting in favourable outcomes and avoiding conflict where a loss is more certain than a win, suddenly bemoan how they're losing to x y and z, and you get the mentality of "why bother, I'm just going to log off and come back after this is done."
If half the people who claimed they're in it "for the fights" stuck around to fight when there's a real brawl going, we wouldn't have this problem of one sided ascension season.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I agree, but you are trying to say the middle is this clearcut line when it's not. It's hazy and it may change from day to day what annoys people.
If someone just constantly tells you that they don't want to defend are you just going to leave each and every time? How many times does someone need to die to you before you say it's ok to say 'hey I'm done?' It isn't a black and white issue, and trying to make it one, by saying 'just tell me' or 'you don't have to defend' is a pretty crappy thing to do.
Sometimes though it's unavoidable, I want to raid and have some PK when there are some willing people around. Sometimes unwilling participants will get drawn in.
Edit: Yes, it is hard to define exactly what the middle ground is, but we can only make our best effort to find it and toe it.
I do believe that raiding just to stress-test your system, check your survivability, try out a new killmethod under duress, or something along those lines is justified with minimal, even flimsy RP intent.
What I don't buy is people having a "sacred purpose" to
*raid for 8 hours.
*chop elders.
*hit and run (copious amounts of times).
*return once all the defenders get bored and go back to what they were doing before, i.e. leave the contested area.
At least the people above are shooting straight, imo.
Here's a serious question, even though this is derailing further.
Every single PKer in the game needs practice getting out of rooms that have 5+ angry people targeting them (allies to help escape optional). This is especially true for melders, leaders and domoth claimers (vernals usually). I don't think that's a fact that can be disputed. So, the question is, how can you personally create situations that you need to try and get away from -without- kicking a Daughter or whatever and seeing if you can survive/get away/even snag some kills from the defenders' onslaught, so that you can practice?
This is, essentially, the hit and run dilemma, imo.
Hit and run is when you hit stuff until people you know you can't easily gank show up, or show up in numbers too many to have an easy time against and running before they even reach the room you're in.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
This bothers me. Is the perception that Avurekhos and Caerlyr raiding on Glom was celebrated and accepted? Because that's a hilariously wrong picture of what happened in either of those cases.
(20 minutes later)
A lost Nexus of Power emerges on the Grey Moors! Avechna declares that the struggle to possess the Claws of Shanth is not His concern.
NOTE: This is a PK Open event within the confines of the Grey Moors.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
- Let defenders have their victory if they cut your group to size a few times, stay put for a weave or so.
- Limit your rampages to a certain length, say less then an hour.
I love the idea of having more optional-ish open-pk events, but I will daresay they won't fix what's seren currently experiencing and I do doubt that it would've fixed the previous rounds.
I agree with what @Phoebus said on the matter, and I also some points @Tremula said. As well meant as any IC solutions to this may be, I don't think they will really pan out, as they will force compromises that the characters are not willing to do / are not really something they would make.
@Saz come back please!
It would completely remove any excuse they had though
My internet cut out during Stage 3 of Knowledge last night. Bummer
I called Fios to see what the issue was, and there was a local outage. Being about midnight, I told the rep that they just cost me a domoth, to which she turned around and offered me 3 months of HBO/Showtime/Starz to make up for the loss.
Woo to tired rambling getting me free stuff.
My internet is still down at my house though. Booooo
I'm seriously surprised though, with how much resonance that post generated. With how others could empathize with the experience. (Sorry to hear that, @Dylara.) With how well the majority grasped what I was trying to tell. It's honestly impressive and most unexpected for me.
Thanks for all the support. But I have given it some thought and I feel as though the resonance/support is here and at that scale because I've struck a nerve that was irritating plenty, rather than simply another player quitting the game. Nevertheless, I appreciate it!
I think, I'll eventually and slowly crawl my way back into Lusternia sometime soon.
Disclaimer's note: About the Spoiler Boxes below. Most of you really don't want to read them. They contain IC information, they are at huge length. Nothing further than elaboration of the first post after the questions asked/points raised either. Ignore this note at your own peril.
-----Quote[ @Shaddus ]-----
"My point is that you really shouldn't say I can't "invalidate someone's feelings" and in almost the same breath invalidate Avurekhos' rp and why he does what he does."
"Avurekhos, who I've been roleplaying with and quite literally twisting to use as a weapon to strike at Lisaera, has a reason to raid. If you bothered to rp with Magnagora, or even Shaddus (who you'll notice is unenemied to your city and order), maybe you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Avurekhos."
-----Response------
First and foremost, Saz and Avurekhos know each other in game. And I used to talk with Avu's player OOCly, as well. It was mostly about learning things about the game. But one thing I can confirm is, he was bored back then. (Pre-Election) He felt like he had to make a move to renew his interest in the game and he was speaking openly about it. I can't be the only person that knows this, either. I still don't believe it's a false thing to do for him. It's nice in a manner that he has found a new purpose. Though you can see, it isn't really fitting to what's argued with it being perfectly IC.
And, before he has made the move. Avurekhos was not playing much either. Ever since I've started playing I've never seen him raid. Even if I had, I don't think Saz'd hold enough voice to stop him. (That's for the pondering bit, in the quotation.) If Saz -had- that voice though, he'd probably try stopping him. Players who know my different players in other games can confirm this, though it's an unnecessarily long shot at the moment. Just observe Saz, in future. Back to the point, I remember clearly how Avu used to idle in a manse for weeks which is further supporting that he was just bored with how things were. I will go bold and state he wanted to lose the election through inactivity. That's my personal opinion, not necessarily the truth behind it.
To be fair he did take Saz out to some hunting and to a flare too. Last thing Avu said to Saz was that he was proud of him. But then the infamous election happened. Along with Saz almost half of Serenwilde voted for Avu, I don't know how this much support can be portrayed as a betrayal in any sense. But on the next day we saw him turning against the Forest. To be honest? There was no shock. We had seen it coming. I mean, we knew IC and OOC that he was going to do it so the objection here is not at all to whatever path his character is taking. I did personally support his decision as well. The problem is with the behaviors and how they effect other players.
Second example is from those endless raids, i've had plenty of time to observe. And I've witnessed at least twice when Avurekhos dived head first to guarded Nexus rooms after spending some time waiting in Etherwilde. To suicide, obviously when there was no Ladies/Fight/Noncoms. Now, I'd gladly read how that is justified in Magnagoran culture or how glorious it is to self sacrifice for nothing, but sincerely it just felt like he was bored again and unsurprisingly, he'd return soon after to raid again.
Third example is the probably the only objective one. Even if everything that's done had been in IC limits. I don't think you can validate this much of lengthy and collective griefing (In the forms of Elder Chopping/Raiding/Constant jumping whichever is more suitable at the time being.) to make amends with a faction or a Divine or vice versa. If he had been doing all of those, less frequently that surely would've been adequate for any purpose unless there's a seriously high standard that incentivizes harming the game. And no one probably would've been complaining about it. But as it's been so determinedly demonstrated, there has to be a different sort of motivation behind this. And what's that? Boredom? Or does he hate us? It can be anything, and I'm not the one to answer what's his motivation.
I mean, as you see despite Saz had done absolutely nothing to incinerate whatever beef there's. (Saz is not an enemy of Magnagora either, as a side note.) He got jumped over 20 times by the same person. Not as a response or anything either. And yes, I think it's too much to be one sided but the fact that I'm usually content with that isn't even enough. We also need to pay greater redemption for our characters' unforgivable sin of sticking with their org for days and many days to come. A realization of how the status quo will continue is what has bugged me enough so I've typed that first post.
It's so valiantly voiced that Avu is a roleplayer and that's what roleplaying extends to. Well, everyone here is a roleplayer. Yet a party here is constantly being forced to leave their RP sessions in half, hunting in half, quests in half or they can choose to undermine their characters' RP by ignoring the constant call of duty. Almost everyday, for multiple hours. And this was the general focus of my first post. That's not a great RP opportunity, that's griefing.
"I don't play the game on the Forums, why do you?"
"Solve things IC, not here. Why didn't you try diplomacy?"
"Put pressure on your Leaders or replace them."
With Diplomacy and Roleplay almost anything is possible. There's no denying that. But throughout this post, I'll try to explain why the problem is more OOC than it's IC. Firstly, it doesn't make much IC sense to attempt the advised method. The griefing in this situation is ultimately helping the cause of your character's organization to quote the words. "Magnagora wants to burn everything to the ground." It'd be very unorthodox if Serenwilde got to convince Magnagora to cease those actions without some compromise, because of Mag RP. The compromise is definitely not what Seren was looking into. Seren's pretty content to defend itself. The reaction of the Circle was not simply overlooking an option. It was a collective decision.
Breandryn did attempt to solve it through negotiations. And do you know which Leader encouraged her to do so? That was Saz. But he did not believe for an instant it'd help the situation along with rest of the Circle. Still, he wanted Breandryn to learn and study Mag, growing to see from where the Circle sees by her own experiences. He did not want to discourage Brea from trying, either. But yes, I didn't catch her quitting Seren nor I got to learn how the RP was going before she did. It boils down to my availability on that point. But it was never going to be of much importance anyways. Naturally too. Long story short, I don't think the approach of Leaders there demands a replacement/pressure from people or isn't generally acceptable from their RP perspective.
Saz didn't send Avurekhos a single tell until the other day, ever since he's quit Seren. Nor he received one. Not because I hate him, obviously. The conflict was obvious enough, I didn't really feel like we had to voice it as well. We -know- what his RP is. But after losing my 2 hours of prep work for Seren Epic and being have to wait almost another week to attempt once again on top of everything else. That was honestly the tipping point for me which lead to this outburst as a whole. But irrelevantly, I think no one should blame the victims stating they're not trying good enough to cope with their problems. And truthfully the problem is more of his, than it's mine or anyone's from Serenwilde or Magnagora. You can take me out from the equitation (The game, in this manner) and you will realize how the root of the problem remains intact.
And, no. I'm not trying to win at forums, nor harm your org-mate. You and your org won't lose anything if he stops harassing other players through IC means, either. I bet, everyone can perfectly settle for the destructive or self-proving villain RP/PK that causes less damage for everyone. The entire point was, I've just voiced concern for myself and others (Or at least, that's the intention) who were not able to "play this game" for a while now. An example of a day is in the spoiler box below.
I'm coming home to play the Lusternia:Age of Ascension.
I'm logging in.
I'm generally content to do some aetherhunting or some roleplaying, sometime about half an hour of PvP would be the icing on the cake, if i am lucky. Because I like it.
Mmf : "Hello". CT : "Ladies under attack" Alright, there we go. Hey Avu, hey guys. Okay, pvp first it's. It doesn't end, but assuming it somehow did. Back to Prime to only find out that:
X says, "We've lost Z Elders and we've Y totems to carve aswell."
Alright... We'll take care of this, I got the Ironbark too. We got this. Go here, go there clean the mess Avu's left for us.
Spouse/Commune/Guild RP starts. CT yells. "Ladies under attack." Oh well, another time perhaps? We go there, my time runs out and perhaps our characters've stalwartly defended their home. And they're feeling rightfully proud. But, midnight already! it's time to QQ.
Looking back at what I've done, things surely did not go as planned. That usually happens it's fine. But seriously what else have I done other than generally playing with Avurekhos or the things he's caused during my time in Lusty? That's not what I intended to do, at all. It feels bad.
And I've finally logged out from Avurekhos: the Relentless Redemption, despite I've logged into Lusternia: the Age of Ascension earlier.
Repeat this for 3 weeks if not more, mix it with getting jumped here and there to get your various attempts interrupted. It gets truly nerve-racking in the end. Even if you love PvPing, I think everyone gets enough of it after some point.
Of course, not every time I log in I find myself into this. But that's more or less what happens frequently enough, the result is guaranteed.
So, that's what this is about. It's about me, not about the characters. Saz isn't tired with this. I am. Else, fights and raids can go on for zillion years in an IC sense for all I care. It's another reason why I don't think an IC resolution is plausible for this.
-Kilian
Ok like I really want to know how the whole conversation went?
Like did she just go ok and act like she knew what you were talking about or did you spend like 10 mins explaining what a domoth was?