Amended Combat Overhaul!

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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    The original expressed desire was to eventually remove the cleanse cure, and either removing or migrating all of those afflictions to one of the four balances. This was some time back, though.

  • IxionIxion Member Posts: 707 Transcendent
    That's what I recall as well, which seems to not be the case now, perhaps.
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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,615 Transcendent
    Truth be told, the entire aff ovethaul has been planned and executed rather poorly so far. Who knows what'll end up happening to the ancillary cures.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,611 Transcendent
    P.S. what happens to focus, asking for a friend.
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  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 771 Mythical
    edited January 2016
    "Finally -- FINALLY -- we can say the overhaul is complete."

    HAHA

    edit: Maybe Estarra is just trolling us.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • TylwythTylwyth Member Posts: 1,491 Fabled
    When did they impliment Restorative Ice?

    FOR pposters who aren't steingrim:

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  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 979 Fabled
    edited January 2016
    @Ieptix

    With the warrior stuff coming out Monday, Aside from the ones in your post, are all other affs being deleted - Things like kneecaps, shatteredankles, pinchednerves, etc or are all these affs also staying?

    Edit: Unless all these are monk affs... /noncombatperson
  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    Anything that's warrior-only will be gone, anything shared with monks will be around for a little  while yet but will get phased out. I don't have an exact list at hand of what's going away.
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  • HavastusHavastus Member Posts: 346 Expert
    Perhaps this warrants its own thread (and perhaps @Ieptix will create one later when appropriate [or a thread's been created already!]), but what can we expect with the Monk update? I haven't seen anything indicating changes.

  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    I don't have any details yet, but it'll mainly be getting their afflictions/kill conditions updated for the new affliction pools and moving them to the new wound system.
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  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    Considering how warriors can only do two wounds a hit max and monks get three hits...
    please let this 'moving them to the new wound system' not just make monks better warriors in almost every way, kind of like how old warriors/old monks relationship is. @ixion can vouch.
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  • AeldraAeldra Member Posts: 993 Mythical
    I must admit I've not been following this thread in full (there was a lot of text I had not much to contribute, knowing very little about warriors) but there's something I'd wanted to ask now that it's imminent, maybe @Ieptix or one of the players with more insight could give me a short answer to this: What's going to happen to the healing skillset, giving we are getting rid of quite some afflictions if I understand it correctly.
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  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 581 Master
    Marcella said:
    Considering how warriors can only do two wounds a hit max and monks get three hits...
    please let this 'moving them to the new wound system' not just make monks better warriors in almost every way, kind of like how old warriors/old monks relationship is. @ixion can vouch.
    Disclaimer: I am not Ieptix and do not have the final say.

    The current discussion was aimed at only basic attacks (non afflicters) causing wounding, or only kick causing wounds. Monks would become equal wound dealers on the assumption people wanted to see more affs hidden behind wounds, especially when some affs are far more powerful.   Monks WERE based on burst afflicting (like guardians) and lacked attrition design (like warriors). They gained higher damage but did crap wounding so it was not something that stacked much. I assume the goal is to bring them more like warriors, but with more "free" affs and the wounds for specific things.  This is yet to be seen and can poke me in game if you have ideas. I am talking with peoples to try to get consensus.


    @Aeldra:  We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.
  • HavastusHavastus Member Posts: 346 Expert
    Malarious said:
    Marcella said:
    Considering how warriors can only do two wounds a hit max and monks get three hits...
    please let this 'moving them to the new wound system' not just make monks better warriors in almost every way, kind of like how old warriors/old monks relationship is. @ixion can vouch.
    Disclaimer: I am not Ieptix and do not have the final say.

    The current discussion was aimed at only basic attacks (non afflicters) causing wounding, or only kick causing wounds. Monks would become equal wound dealers on the assumption people wanted to see more affs hidden behind wounds, especially when some affs are far more powerful.   Monks WERE based on burst afflicting (like guardians) and lacked attrition design (like warriors). They gained higher damage but did crap wounding so it was not something that stacked much. I assume the goal is to bring them more like warriors, but with more "free" affs and the wounds for specific things.  This is yet to be seen and can poke me in game if you have ideas. I am talking with peoples to try to get consensus.


    @Aeldra:  We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.
    I kinda like this idea, making monks out to be like "physical damage dealing" guardians; it also kind of fits into the idea of being a "spiritual" being, like a guardian, but of course using a weapon. Might be interesting seeing how that could play out.

    Then again, my idea of what a monk is is skewed by Havastus being a Tahtetso, and that's the only Monk guild that I know.

  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 979 Fabled
    To be fully prepared for tomorrow  and probably more of an @Ieptix thing to answer my questions, but here is what I have for non-monk affs:

    So, My lists show 38 monk affs that will be staying until the monk overhaul is done:


        shortbreath - apply melancholic to chest
        twistedrightleg - apply mending to legs
        twistedleftleg - apply mending to legs
        twistedrightarm - apply mending to arms
        twistedleftarm - apply mending to arms    
        shatteredrightankle - apply regeneration to legs
        shatteredleftankle - apply regeneration to legs
        lefttendon - apply regeneration to legs
        righttendon - apply regeneration to legs
        crackedrightelbow - apply regeneration to arms
        collapsedleftnerve - apply regeneration to arms
        collapsedrightnerve - apply regeneration to arms
        chestpain - apply regeneration to chest    
        pinchednervehead - eat marjoram
        pinchednervechest - eat marjoram
        pinchednervegut - eat marjoram
        pinchednerverightarm - eat marjoram
        pinchednerveleftarm - eat marjoram    
        dislocatedleftarm - eat marjoram
        dislocatedrightarm - eat marjoram
        dislocatedleftleg - eat marjoram
        dislocatedrightleg - eat marjoram
        slicedtongue - eat marjoram
        puncturedchest - eat marjoram
        missingleftear - eat marjoram
        missingrightear - eat marjoram
        slicedopengut - eat marjoram
        scrambledbrain - eat pennyroyal
        clotleftleg - eat yarrow
        clotrightleg - eat yarrow
        clotleftarm - eat yarrow
        clotrightarm - eat yarrow
        slicedopenforehead - eat yarrow
        laceratedrightarm - eat yarrow
        laceratedleftarm - eat yarrow
        laceratedrightleg - eat yarrow
        laceratedleftleg - eat yarrow
        relapsing - eat yarrow


    I also have 25 warrior affs, that should be going away? :


        disemboweled - apply regeneration to gut
        burstorgans - apply regeneration to gut    
        slicedleftbicep - eat marjoram
        slicedrightbicep - eat marjoram
        slicedleftthigh - eat marjoram
        slicedrightthigh - eat marjoram
        openchest - eat marjoram    
        gashedcheek - eat marjoram    
        rupturedstomach - apply regeneration to gut
        severedspine - apply regeneration to gut    
        shatteredjaw - apply regeneration to head
        eyepeckleft - apply regeneration to head
        eyepeckright - apply regeneration to head
        concussion - apply regeneration to head    
        crackedleftkneecap - apply regeneration to legs
        crackedrightkneecap - apply regeneration to legs        
        puncturedlung - apply melancholic to chest    
        scalped - drink sanguine
        furrowedbrow - drink sanguine    
        throatlock - focus body
        leglock - focus body    
        arteryrightarm - eat yarrow
        arteryleftarm - eat yarrow
        arteryrightleg - eat yarrow
        arteryleftleg - eat yarrow



    And lastly, I have 25 other affs that are still around:

        impatience - focus mind
        sprawled - stand
        asleep - wake
        fear - compose
        disrupted - concentrate
        entangled - writhe        
        blackedout - drink allheale
        enfeeble - drink allheale    
        shivering - drink fire
        frozen - drink fire    
        ablaze - drink frost    
        lovepotion - drink choleric    
        void - drink phlegmatic
        burnlevel - apply liniment    
        jinx - eat reishi
        succumb - eat reishi
        puncturedaura - eat reishi
        aurawarp - eat reishi
        justice - eat reishi    
        temporaryinsanity - eat pennyroyal
        deafness - eat earwort    
        blindness - eat faeleaf    
        bedevil - eat horehound
        timewarp - eat horehound
        deadened - eat kombu


    There may be affs in these lists that are monks and I just overlooked (and their may be ones missing...)

    -----

    Some of these have special cures (asleep, fear, disrupted, sprawled, entangled.) - what is happening with these? Are they going away?

    What about the ones that have other non-warrior affs on this list. I vaguely remember that Void was maybe staying? I believe there was some talk about making frost and fire potion effects into skills or we are going to have a few extra odd cures here and there (the original plan was to only have the 4 overhaul cures and nothing else)?


  • AeldraAeldra Member Posts: 993 Mythical
    edited January 2016
    Malarious said:

    @Aeldra:  We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.

    @Malarious I am not sure what you mean by "problem child" curing. Healing is a skill tree that focuses on exactly that, Healing. From my point of view, the new afflictions need to be able to be cured by healing like the old ones were cured.

    If there's a balance concern regarding that, then I feel healing needs to change, because I mean it's healing main appeal: being able to cure stuff for you and other people. If we take that away / nerf that, then I think healing will need something so it keeping interesting, because if healing can't heal, what's the meaning of the skill tree?

    EDIT: reworded to sound less angry, not sure why I always come off angry :( never been any intention.
    Post edited by Aeldra on
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  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    (Nearly?) all of the overhaul afflictions that correspond to old afflictions that were curable via Healing maintain that property. However, healing will likely be, at the least, restructured some to account for the much smaller set of afflictions, and possibly adjusted mechanically. This, however, is not currently a priority; at present it should mirror pretty well the pre-Overhaul function of the skill.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,478 Transcendent
    Aeldra said:
    Malarious said:

    @Aeldra:  We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.

    @Malarious I am not sure what you mean by "problem child" curing. Healing is a skill tree that focuses on exactly that, Healing. From my point of view, the new afflictions need to be able to be cured by healing like the old ones were cured.

    If there's a balance concern regarding that, then I feel healing needs to change, because I mean it's healing main appeal: being able to cure stuff for you and other people. If we take that away / nerf that, then I think healing will need something so it keeping interesting, because if healing can't heal, what's the meaning of the skill tree?

    EDIT: reworded to sound less angry, not sure why I always come off angry :( never been any intention.
    He means there's a grey area between "healing can't heal," and "unstoppable curing juggernaut." As a former healer who took full advantage of it in PK, it's absolutely one of the best group combat skillsets. Certain guilds, like researchers, with their self contained offenses, use it to tip the scales of PK in truly enormous way. Given that it's much easier to nerf a shared skillset like healing than it is to convince Hallifax to stop buffing aeros and do something about rubies or whatever, he's proposing a nerf to healing.

    I'm not opposed. I've used it extensively, it's crazy in the hands of specific guilds in group PK. It can be nerfed and still be immensely valuable. 
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  • AeldraAeldra Member Posts: 993 Mythical
    Celina said:
    Aeldra said:
    Malarious said:

    @Aeldra:  We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.

    @Malarious I am not sure what you mean by "problem child" curing. Healing is a skill tree that focuses on exactly that, Healing. From my point of view, the new afflictions need to be able to be cured by healing like the old ones were cured.

    If there's a balance concern regarding that, then I feel healing needs to change, because I mean it's healing main appeal: being able to cure stuff for you and other people. If we take that away / nerf that, then I think healing will need something so it keeping interesting, because if healing can't heal, what's the meaning of the skill tree?

    EDIT: reworded to sound less angry, not sure why I always come off angry :( never been any intention.
    He means there's a grey area between "healing can't heal," and "unstoppable curing juggernaut." As a former healer who took full advantage of it in PK, it's absolutely one of the best group combat skillsets. Certain guilds, like researchers, with their self contained offenses, use it to tip the scales of PK in truly enormous way. Given that it's much easier to nerf a shared skillset like healing than it is to convince Hallifax to stop buffing aeros and do something about rubies or whatever, he's proposing a nerf to healing.

    I'm not opposed. I've used it extensively, it's crazy in the hands of specific guilds in group PK. It can be nerfed and still be immensely valuable.
    I don't feel like that's what should be done. The "harder" route of nerfing the combination that's problematic is what I'd think is the right way. I would just ask to keep in mind that people who actually pick healing (such as me) because they enjoy the idea of having actual healing power should actually get something out of it that's a rough equivalent in usefulness to what they give up in offense by not picking the alternatives.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,478 Transcendent
    edited January 2016
    Ultimately, I don't think interesting combat is about who can build the biggest fortress, which is really what healing (among other skillsets) does. Team X is more unkillable than Team Y so Team X wins. The crux of the argument is this: there's no strategy in healing. You put up auras, your system handles the background curing, and you mash your team kill buttons. The ability to extend a fight indefinitely might be enjoyable for the healer, but it's a terrible concept to balance around. 

    This is why things like cheap prismatics, and get out of death free cards like full and trueheal are disliked so severely. 

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  • IxionIxion Member Posts: 707 Transcendent
    edited January 2016
    wrong thread
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  • AeldraAeldra Member Posts: 993 Mythical
    @Celina thanks for always trying to making unclear combat points understandable for me. I appreciate that.

    I agree with missing strategy in Healing, my point was more if you pick a defensive skillset, making it less defensive is chipping on the purpose on the skillset. Changing the mechanics to make them more strategical or something? Sure, why not.
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  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 581 Master
    Aeldra said:
    Malarious said:

    @Aeldra:  We could leave it to an extent. Healing needs changing though to avoid problem child combat.

    @Malarious I am not sure what you mean by "problem child" curing. Healing is a skill tree that focuses on exactly that, Healing. From my point of view, the new afflictions need to be able to be cured by healing like the old ones were cured.

    If there's a balance concern regarding that, then I feel healing needs to change, because I mean it's healing main appeal: being able to cure stuff for you and other people. If we take that away / nerf that, then I think healing will need something so it keeping interesting, because if healing can't heal, what's the meaning of the skill tree?

    EDIT: reworded to sound less angry, not sure why I always come off angry :( never been any intention.
    Celina mainly summarized this fairly well I think.

    Healing is either a perfect wall (exceptions were burst vessels, wound building, possible bleeding, and mana/ego kills). All combo guilds (wiccans, guardians, bards, etc) were almost completely neutered by this. When 1 skillset hard counters 60%+ of every guild we have an issue. My idea was "duress", which would make healing stop being completely free to cast and require and consume eq, potentially with chances to fail the more afflicted you are so that you COULD be killed by combo guilds but have an edge early on.

    I do not have it entirely worked out, but basically in PvE it would be identical but it would get worse in PvP to prevent being a hard counter to most tactics. A healer can tank 3-4 people if those people do not have something on the list above they can perform faster than healing. 
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,478 Transcendent
    Aeldra said:
    @Celina thanks for always trying to making unclear combat points understandable for me. I appreciate that.

    I agree with missing strategy in Healing, my point was more if you pick a defensive skillset, making it less defensive is chipping on the purpose on the skillset. Changing the mechanics to make them more strategical or something? Sure, why not.
    Well I think the most dramatic change you'll possibly see is a rework of auras and maybe healing to consume a short eq when used on oneself.
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  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    So this is a slight necro (although it is a pinned topic, so I'll blame it on that). What afflictions are there right now that aren't overhauled? My current list contains a lot of warrior affs, as well as thornlash (which I believe was reworked?), so I'm guessing a large amount of them are removed at this point.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    Thornlashes haven't been changed. 
  • WeiwaeWeiwae Member, Gods Posts: 443 Divine
    Ssaliss said:
    So this is a slight necro (although it is a pinned topic, so I'll blame it on that). What afflictions are there right now that aren't overhauled? My current list contains a lot of warrior affs, as well as thornlash (which I believe was reworked?), so I'm guessing a large amount of them are removed at this point.
    The in-game help file HELP CURELIST should be up to date, and if that isn't the case, please bug it.
    Most of the afflictions that are still listed are due to monks, but not all of them.
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