Open Combat: Aeonics Design

2»

Comments

  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 472 Creator
    Just an update, I have been following these pretty regularly - I'm hoping to have a post up tomorrow or friday in both threads to update the 'direction' for review. Things have been a bit more hectic in the Havens than expected (events, new ephemerals, other things), and I'm currently trying to juggle that and a 2500mi (4000km) move.

    Feel free to keep discussing, more information is always useful, just giving a head's up.
    Forum Avatar drawn by our lovely Isune.
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    Was thinking about timewarp as a command denial tool. Command denial itself is only really useful if it has a tool with which to take advantage of it. Illumanti have eyesnare to tag on more insanity.

    Im not sure this would be a great idea for a class with a passive aeon. You'd be throwing a ton of your offense into rng triggering failed aeon curing. Which while it would be powerful having strong command denial, an active aeon, a passive aeon and asthma to stack and aim to lock in aeon it may not be the most fun way of fighting or fighting agaisnt if rng plays such a big role.

    Possibly my original idea as timewarp as command denial isnt a great idea on review.

    Not sure what else you could make it do though.
  • EjderhaEjderha Member Posts: 126 Master
    Yeah, I don’t know about command denial. There is plenty as is, and it occupies a narrow design space between being totally ineffective (SSC handles command denial really well) and super frustrating for players, and as @Veyils pointed out, all very RNG.
     It also just kind of feels like a copy of temp-insanity.

    I don’t think it has to be a single, stacking effect either, as that limits the design space too. Maybe each “level” of time warp would have a different effect, but effects that would be thematic and build toward a coherent strategy. For example, Bal/Eq malus, delayed curing steam affs (or increased steam balance), command delay (imagine like old aeon but not as bad, still queued instead of interrupting, just acting like latency on commands, or maybe only commands not already effected by new aeon), ego damage/malus to represent mind and soul being stretched across time, etc.

    Beyond timewarp as a concept, I’d like to echo the suggestions of opportunity cost as a balance mechanism. Some of my favorite skillsets rely on this (Harmony and Zarakido) and allow for nice effects that are either strictly exclusive (Zarakido Wills, Harmony meta-mantras) or cost prohibitive to co-maintain. It also makes a skillset much more fun and interesting than set and forget defenses.

    For example, you could imagine separating current/potential aeonics abilities into 3
    camps: Some basic, standard defs, and then two ‘Modes’ that would offer exclusive benefits. My though was attuning either to your past or future self. Perhaps TIMECHANT ATTUNE FUTURESELF gives you effect like aff dodging, attack dodging etc, while attuning PASTSELF might let you heal affs or restore to that past, safe state. 

    This is would let you have speed buffs and debuffs in the same skillset without being able to stack them 1v1, and let you amp up the skills to be more exciting or ‘gamechanging’ Since they are exclusive (and assuming that switching between futureself and pastself is limited by power/bal/eq/masochism/whatever)

    I’d love to see a pastself self-rescue or self-rezz (perhaps similar to Sileni rescue or the artifact (ur’stone I think?) rezz, effectively restoring to a place in time in the past. Maybe it has a chance to fail if you yourself are timewarped, which gives a way to further limit abilities - if the cost of dragging an enemy through time is timewarp to yourself, you might deprive yourself of your restoration.

    futureself impede gives a percent chance to block the exit of any enemies (foresight letting you step in the way) scaling inversely with the number of enemies in the room. 

    I wanted To write more but I’ve been behind - now writing from my car while waiting for employees to show up to job site. Oh well.

  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,650 Transcendent
    I disagree with the balancing act mechanic as a game design element in general. The assumption is usually that because you have more options each of those options would be individually weaker than what you would get without those options. However, there are very few cases where balancing acts are actually, well, balanced. The options presented are often not even somewhat equal and most people end up picking the same options.

    Also no to just copying tempinsanity. It doesn't fit Institute at all, unless you're suggesting we copy things like BadLuck as well, which we probably don't want to do. 

    I think the "gamechangers" discussion kind of missed my point. I'm not saying that we need one, but that we need skills that feel impactful, which nothing in Aeonics really stands out to me as being. I just brought up those sorts of skills because they have an obvious impact. It is entirely possible to have lesser effects that still feel impactful. Aeonics as it is just misses that mark entirely.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    edited November 2017
    Veyils said:
    Was thinking about timewarp as a command denial tool. Command denial itself is only really useful if it has a tool with which to take advantage of it. Illumanti have eyesnare to tag on more insanity.

    Im not sure this would be a great idea for a class with a passive aeon. You'd be throwing a ton of your offense into rng triggering failed aeon curing. Which while it would be powerful having strong command denial, an active aeon, a passive aeon and asthma to stack and aim to lock in aeon it may not be the most fun way of fighting or fighting agaisnt if rng plays such a big role.

    Possibly my original idea as timewarp as command denial isnt a great idea on review.

    Not sure what else you could make it do though.
    Just as a random idea, what if time warp became a stacking buff instead of an aff? 

    It'd be a big change, but some of their abilities could shift them out of time and are available/stronger based on how warped they are, or aren't?

    The possibility could also exist for Researchers to have a preference for high timewarp while Sentinel relevant stuff is better at low warp.

    EDIT: More like a heat mechanic than balance-shifting (Machinist from XIV, Holosmith from GW2, Bright Wizard from WAR, Elementalism from SWL)
    image
    image
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,650 Transcendent
    edited November 2017
    The last thing Hallifax needs is anti-synergy, so no thanks. 
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    Saran said:
    Veyils said:
    Was thinking about timewarp as a command denial tool. Command denial itself is only really useful if it has a tool with which to take advantage of it. Illumanti have eyesnare to tag on more insanity.

    Im not sure this would be a great idea for a class with a passive aeon. You'd be throwing a ton of your offense into rng triggering failed aeon curing. Which while it would be powerful having strong command denial, an active aeon, a passive aeon and asthma to stack and aim to lock in aeon it may not be the most fun way of fighting or fighting agaisnt if rng plays such a big role.

    Possibly my original idea as timewarp as command denial isnt a great idea on review.

    Not sure what else you could make it do though.
    Just as a random idea, what if time warp became a stacking buff instead of an aff? 

    It'd be a big change, but some of their abilities could shift them out of time and are available/stronger based on how warped they are, or aren't?

    The possibility could also exist for Researchers to have a preference for high timewarp while Sentinel relevant stuff is better at low warp.

    EDIT: More like a heat mechanic than balance-shifting (Machinist from XIV, Holosmith from GW2, Bright Wizard from WAR, Elementalism from SWL)

    Its an interesting concept for sure.  I cant see a way around it being a "true affliction" but an affliction that buffs other people as opposed to hindering them sounds like a fun concept.

    Hmm just sort of concept ideas but what if something like for every level of timewarp on someone when you hit them you a a +1 balance buff to your next attack. The warped time allows you to strike faster etc etc. This kind of thing would be relevant to any class warrior or guardian because faster attacks is just an all around good thing. It'd also be great for groups because it'd just flat out bufff every allies damage and affliction rate on the target.

    Not sure about the numbers if stacking that high a balance is too good or not but well napkin notes again. Numbers can always be adjusted if the concept is workable.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    edited November 2017
    @Veyils Oh I meant that it'd be a defense that the Aeonics users would build on themselves. If it was targetted at a different person then the Sentinel vs Researcher idea would just not work. 

    Though for group utility, if each of the hallifax classes could build a little time warp on themselves then maybe there could be aoe stuff that targets time warped people for some effect?


    EDIT: Also these sort of mechanics can incorporate risk/reward stuff, going too far can be really powerful but detrimental. So like, what happens when a Researcher warps themselves too far or a Sentinel makes themselves... too stable?
    image
    image
  • VeyilsVeyils Member Posts: 1,457 Mythical
    Hmm ok I get you now, timewarp as a stacking buff on the caster. Like a second resource bar or rage/energy style mechanic. Wears off in time and builds casting offensive spells, at high timewarp you get big speed and damage buffs etc and there's a minor spill over onto allies so that your buffs overflow into them so groups of timewarp users build to higher levels faster than solo timewarp users and still buff non timewarp using allies.

    I really like this concept. You would need to build some sort of totally new kill route though because shifting timewarp away from an affliction would mean timequake would need to work differently.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,478 Transcendent
    Give skills like Oracle and Time echoes (and whatever else) a chance for a double tic or stronger effect that scales from 0 to X% based on how timewarped the target is. Snowball effect.
    image
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,650 Transcendent
    As-is, making them tic more at higher levels of timewarp could just move the binary nature of timewarp from none-massive to none-some lower threshold. Also, I don't really think we should be gating the entire aff's effect behind 3p skills that only two classes of the five that can timewarp can use.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,696 Mythical
    Veyils said:
    Hmm ok I get you now, timewarp as a stacking buff on the caster. Like a second resource bar or rage/energy style mechanic. Wears off in time and builds casting offensive spells, at high timewarp you get big speed and damage buffs etc and there's a minor spill over onto allies so that your buffs overflow into them so groups of timewarp users build to higher levels faster than solo timewarp users and still buff non timewarp using allies.

    I really like this concept. You would need to build some sort of totally new kill route though because shifting timewarp away from an affliction would mean timequake would need to work differently.
    Also, optionally, you can intentionally consume it to use some of our abilities.

    As for timequake, could the insta be moved to harmonics and aeonics just be intended to support the Researchers in getting there? (oooh, some ability that replicates the creation of the Researcher Guards/Conclave?)
    Would take it away from the Sentinels though.
    image
    image
2»
Sign In or Register to comment.