"If it's not fun, don't do it."

KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
edited August 2014 in Common Grounds
The title of this story is my mantra to gaming, I first adopted this attitude after leaving a rather toxic raiding guild in Warcraft about 7 years ago, and it's served me well ever since.

The hardest part of this however, is to accept the following as an inevitable truth if you wish to follow it. There are things in gaming you'd like, things you want, but if you don't find the necessary tasks required to obtain these things fun, and more to the point the opposite of fun, accept that these things are things that you are better off without.

Ultimately nothing in a game is worth your personal happiness, and more importantly your well-being.

I've toyed with telling this story now for some time, afraid it'll come across as a self serving "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am" boast. I hope people can look at it in a different light than that, this isn't a post about "How effing great was I?" where I'm asking for your plaudits and compliments. It is simply a timeline of events from my perspective, and the challenges I believed I faced at the time, the backstory to put things in perspective, and the method to an awful lot of madness.



It's been a year since I first started making plans for this year's Ascension. Was it premature? Probably. Was it overkill? In hindsight, absolutely certainly. Was it fun doing it? Most of the time it was a blast.

If I could go back and do it all again would I do it exactly the same? No, I'd certainly go back and try to win it again, but I wouldn't do everything the same way.

So for anyone who's eyeing up next February and thinking "I want it." Here's my story of the last year, perhaps some it'll give some people inspiration, but more hopefully people will learn from my hindsight as to what's planning and what's simply overkill.


Last summer was pretty crap, in the real world I'd fallen out with my mother and stepfather, an argument that meant I wouldn't properly speak with either of them for several months, and the story of my dad has been well chronicled here already. So I would escape life and throw myself head first into the game, except the in game scenario wasn't exactly a bed of roses either. All the old senior combatants had got jobs or stopped playing for various reasons, except Synkarin who'd gone to Hallifax. It was at this time Glomdoring elected to raise Morkarion as a VA.

It was exciting but terrifying at the same time. Glomdoring was lacking experienced combatants, Gaudiguch was in the same boat and Magnagora had gone on summer vacation. Morkarion had been raised as a symbol of leadership, at the time it (personally) felt like Glomdoring was cashing in its chips on a single roll of the dice. No pressure, right?

My play time during this period shot up, I'd be on every day, around the clock, I shifted my hours to deal with when we'd be most likely raided, and then stick around to when we'd most likely have people on to gain some measure of success. I would forego sleep to watch revolts and flares like a hawk when they were due, I'd attempt to steal domoths the moment they came off flux if the time was right, who cares if I should have been in bed? Small victories, anything to install momentum and confidence, I was still learning a great deal about group combat myself, target calling and mechanics. I felt like a guy who had been given a promotion maybe too early, and was bluffing his way to try and get a lucky break.

In hindsight I've realised I was given the tools to grow into them, and any expectation of immediate delivery was entirely self placed. A lesson for anyone who steps up to the reins, anyone who expects immediate overnight success can quit whining and start leading themselves, the rest of your group will appreciate someone willing to step up and learn.

I learned that most people didn't take aetherflares that seriously. Last summer you could solo a flare most hours of the day, competition was low and preparation was terrible. I made that my focus, we couldn't take revolts with such lack of numbers, so let's go conquer aetherspace! Over time victories started to chain up, we didn't just win flares in Glomdoring but we helped out Gaudiguch and Magnagora. There was one point in the summer that despite holding no domoths or villages, we completely wiped the north of the aetherspace politics list.

Now I can't take pure credit for all of this, the people who had confidence in me, who supported me, who stepped up and learned to fight, people that I could rely on. People like Kio, Feyda, Chade, Alary, Tacita and Uruk who were with me week in, week out. People like Vadi and Shuyin who, despite entering the world of real life employment, helped out when there was time spare.


So what does any of this have to do with Ascension? Well, I had a three part plan.

1: Win a seal - This was already something I'd been working on, it was a plan I'd been formulating since roughly 3 hours after I lost Death that year, when I should have been sleeping and couldn't. It became an almost unhealthy obsession.

Between the bitter determination of not wanting that feeling of disappointment again, and the later fear of my plan failing at the first hurdle, I would revise this plan time and again, mock runs, theorycraft, and character investment in the necessary artifacts to be on the bleeding edge. In the end the plan worked, better than I ever expected at the time. I can only say in hindsight I would not have lost sleep over it the way I did. Logging on at random hours "just to test" something I could have done the next day.

I won't go into details of the actual plan itself, because what isn't already common knowledge, is stuff I plan to teach anyone from the south who is making a serious push for it this year.


2: Be the clear choice candidate, not just for Glomdoring but for the entire south. This was the part I was working on, not just the fighting and getting results, but the politicking the planning and handing drama. Ideally Glomdoring would repeat the previous year and not only have the lion's share of the seals, but the south's entire threshold. That was something I spent a lot of time on (and was actually rather fun!) both as pre-prep and during Ascension itself, I never missed a single event this year, and whether I was encouraging people to spar for War, debate for Justice, setting up shrine areas for Chaos, running through Tacita's plan for Uruk before going shattergrief with Synkarin for Harmony, or being on the losing side of a surprisingly well co-ordinated Life victory, I turned up to every event. One piece of advice I'll give anyone who wants to put their shot in for TA, make sure you're supporting your side at every event you can make, people aren't going to be inclined to follow someone with an "I've got mine, screw you all, see you in a few weeks." attitude.

But Glomdoring having total seal control wasn't something I could rely on, and in the end didn't.

In fact I'm not sure if this ever made public knowledge, but in the end a gentlemen's agreement was made between myself and Eritheyl: first to the staff wins. Gaudiguch had their first ever seal bearer, and it was understandable they weren't going to surrender their shot willingly.

There are so many "what if's" when you go through a plan to win Ascension, what if I'd lost Death, what if Eritheyl had grabbed the staff, what if Synkarin had stayed in Hallifax, if Shuyin/Viynain/Vadi and the entire of Magnagora hadn't returned a few months later and instead Veyrzhul/Malicia/Nydekion/Shedrin all returned instead?

Ultimately you cannot plan everything, and some things will be left to chance. You can calculate probability and likelihood and be wrong, so focus on affecting the outcomes that you do have an impact on, and making sure you do what you can to get a favourable result.

That being said..


3: Eliminate the competition. This is the biggest regret I have of my all my planning, and I'd love to say it was planned from the start, but in truth it was born out of consequence. Synkarin moved to Gaudiguch, Magnagora's population gained a massive upswing, Hiriako moved to Glomdoring, and as I had banked, several combatants in opposition retained their status as fair weather fighters and left when the going got tough. The South once again had the upper hand, villages, domoths, flares, nodes, I could sit back and probably catch up on sleep, right?

Except I'd seen over the summer what the slightest sniff of morale had done and didn't want that opportunity to return. I spent a lot of time building bridges with other combatants, mostly while griefing the north. Realms were raided, guards were slaughtered, Celest got almost all of their statues pulled down and the Pool had a tainted meld running all over it. It was absolute overkill, unnecessary and in hindsight the wrong thing to do, did it kill morale before Ascension? Certainly. Maybe not in everyone but in enough people that with the exception of Life, it was a more one sided affair than the year before.

If I ever had to go back and do this all again, this would be the biggest "do not repeat" element of the whole plan. I too often take to conflict with a very "total war" esque attitude, and won't be satisfied with knowing an opponent is beat until they clearly can't get back up. While that's great for people on your side, it sucks to be on the receiving end, losing is bad enough, being ground into the dirt till your resolve is broken is the point where people go find another game is just ugh. I know, and should have known better because I'd been there before, and it's all too easy out of fear of being on the receiving end that people come down heavy on opposition before it has a chance to form.

Everything in Lusternia is temporary, villages revolt, bubbles flare, domoths flux and nodes reset every 2 weeks. Ascension is a once a year event, not a once a life time, while you're sat there stewing for another year (and in the case of some people in this game they've been biding their time now for several) the opportunity will come again. It's easy for me to say it now, I know, but nothing in this game is worth driving other players away.

I can't say for certain if my actions did or didn't, I'd like to hope the latter but would accept the former if that's how it turned out for some people, and I'd like to take this moment to say I'm sorry. I had a goal, a focus, and an obsessive drive to achieving something.


If there's any other advice I can share, it's that I never took anything for granted. I may have had some b.s. notion in my head that no one deserved it more than me, prior, but despite what others were saying, I never assumed it was a done deal that I'd win Death, or Ascension itself. Assuming x person will be there for you, while y person won't show up for them will throw a spanner in your works if your plan is rigid on setup. Don't assume who is or isn't there till they log on. Never get cocky and presume you've won till the challenge is over and your name sits at the top of the scoreboard, a lackadaisical attitude leads to oversights and mistakes, and there's very little room for second chances.

Oh, and sleep for the love of god, even if it's the night before your big day, sleep. It's not worth panicking over, honestly. And when you wake up, eat and have something to drink. Running on adrenaline and caffiene is not healthy, especially when you start hallucinating.

And ultimately, it's never too early to start planning and practising. For some seals, Anniversary games are but a few months away. Make the most of the time you have now, and don't do it all last minute. 

Good luck.

The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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Comments

  • I have been playing this game since almost the beginning so I have seen every ascension. I have only in recent years been able to place in any, mainly chaos and that is if I am lucky, last year was the first time I attempted much more than beauty and chaos, I didn't fare well in most except in war.. and I blame @Munsia for that unfortunate situation. But,I can add to this, get out of your comfort zone and try! it does not hurt to try!
    The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."

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  • MunsiaMunsia The Supreme Goddess
    I hate Ascension time with a passion due to the stress
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals
    Pretty much all this is why I'm more interested in helping other people work toward seals and just kind of go with things otherwise.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Vivet said:
    Pretty much all this is why I'm more interested in helping other people work toward seals and just kind of go with things otherwise.
    I've got to be honest, I'm actually excited at the prospect of a stress free Ascension where I can help and support other people's efforts, and just show up on the day.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New Zealand
    edited August 2014
    You're definitely right about the last bit, getting the upper hand is one thing, grinding their face into the dirt repeatedly is going a bit too far in a game with an already limited player base - I know people that simply said "Ugh, screw this" and disappeared until after ascension was well and truly over, because they knew it just wasn't worth the headache, any time something was done to try to claw back a tiny bit of ground, the southern alliance would drop on it like 10 tons of bricks.  I will say you are wrong about morale being simply low, it was virtually at ZERO from what I saw/heard when I was around.

    To be perfectly honest, it would have probably been more productive to facestomp Hallifax... y'know, someone that actually had SEALS - Last ascension was the first one that Celest did not get a single seal full stop.

    At the time of Ascension, the Seal tallies were:

    Magnagora: 0
    Gaudiguch: 1
    Glomdoring: 5
    Hallifax: 3
    Serenwilde: 0
    Celest: 0
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    edited August 2014
    Huh, where did Magnagora get a seal from? At the time of Ascension the tallies were 5 in Glomdoring (Chaos, Harmony, War, Death and Beauty) 3 in Hallifax (Life, Knowledge and Justice) 1 in Gaudiguch (Nature).

    It wasn't zero though, if it was zero, people wouldn't have tried for seals, Death and Justice were among the last seals to be decided and Celest still showed up. For Ascension itself, people from Celest showed up and fought right up to the fight was over, that's not what you do at zero morale.


    Also Hallifax didn't exactly avoid the indiscriminate violence. It's actually really hard to facestomp an organisation that doesn't focus on PK as a mainstay. Aerys had a plan for Life that worked, and it paid off, meanwhile Justice and Knowledge are events down to the individual.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New Zealand
    edited August 2014
    Uruk picked up a seal.

    EDIT: Oops, thought Uruk was Magnagoran, forgot he went glom too.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New Zealand
    edited August 2014
    Karlach said:
    Huh, where did Magnagora get a seal from? At the time of Ascension the tallies were 5 in Glomdoring (Chaos, Harmony, War, Death and Beauty) 3 in Hallifax (Life, Knowledge and Justice) 1 in Gaudiguch (Nature).

    It wasn't zero though, if it was zero, people wouldn't have tried for seals, Death and Justice were among the last seals to be decided and Celest still showed up. For Ascension itself, people from Celest showed up and fought right up to the fight was over, that's not what you do at zero morale.


    Also Hallifax didn't exactly avoid the indiscriminate violence. It's actually really hard to facestomp an organisation that doesn't focus on PK as a mainstay. Aerys had a plan for Life that worked, and it paid off, meanwhile Justice and Knowledge are events down to the individual.
    And how does slaughtering the guards, destroying the city's statues and replacing them with ones tantamount to their ideals and tainting large portions of the city align with the main point of ascension?  It doesn't.  In my eyes, it is just petty mischief and rubbing salt in the wounds of a city that was already low on morale.

    At the end of the day it is all personal opinion, but like I said, I know of a few people that basically said 'bugger this' and disappeared until the event was over and done with.

    (On a personal note, if the events were not primarily when I was studying or fast asleep, I would have likely taken part, but as has always been my credo, RL always comes first for me.)
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA

    Kagato said:
    I know people that simply said "Ugh, screw this" and disappeared until after ascension was well and truly over, because they knew it just wasn't worth the headache
    This is me pretty much every Ascension. From the day of the first Seal competition until the Staff is claimed, I tend to be pretty scarce, but not because of getting my face ground into the dirt, but because that time brings out the worst in players, the most lag, and the most frustration. So I simply don't participate. I have 0 fun during any Seal competition except Knowledge, and -0 fun during the Ascension itself. I'll probably have to show up this year, though.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • edited August 2014
    Every time Ascension comes around I get bitter about my Chaos seal and usually stop playing until it's over. Usually I get interested in another game and take several months off, because screw the stupid admin being stubborn and refusing to admit they're wrong.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    It doesn't help when prominent leadertype people are spouting 'why bother' rhetoric either. 

    It's important to remember that typically the people that are winning these things have also lost them and lost them hard. Until Xenthos, Glom lost 3 ascensions in a row, in disappointing fashion. This was despite being the top Org at the time, and winning pretty much everything else.

    I've lost the War seal competition not once, but twice because of a stupid mistake on my end. A stupid noob mistake I shouldn't ever be making. 

    Being on the losing end means very little when it comes to Ascension.



    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark Australia
    My timezone is entirely unsuited to ascension and usually all the events too. No Oceania love!



  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited August 2014

    Lavinya said:
    My timezone is entirely unsuited to ascension and usually all the events too. No Oceania love!
    I feel like this year, they made a ton of adjustments for people outside the normal time zones.  For the first time, there were events going on at times way outside the standard ranges (previous years it has always been something like 8pm EST for every challenge, or midafternoon- 4pm-ish).
    image
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice
    Lavinya said:
    My timezone is entirely unsuited to ascension and usually all the events too. No Oceania love!

    It's been a steady 5 am ascension for me for the past couple of years! :)
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • Everiine said:

    Kagato said:
    I know people that simply said "Ugh, screw this" and disappeared until after ascension was well and truly over, because they knew it just wasn't worth the headache
    This is me pretty much every Ascension. From the day of the first Seal competition until the Staff is claimed, I tend to be pretty scarce, but not because of getting my face ground into the dirt, but because that time brings out the worst in players, the most lag, and the most frustration. So I simply don't participate. I have 0 fun during any Seal competition except Knowledge, and -0 fun during the Ascension itself. I'll probably have to show up this year, though.
    A depressing sentiment, but I can't say I fully disagree. Personally, I *love* the Knowledge and Nature challenges. They provide what I find to be an extremely enjoyable challenge. But while Knowledge is in a safe room, where all that matters is hoping your previous months of cramming worked out, Nature is out in the "wild" so to say. The Nature challenge, searching all across the basin through a scavenger hunt, is a lot of fun. But the event itself is plagued by a lot of instances of trying to push the opposition down, rather than lifting up your own. Every year, there are people who would focus on trying to force praying on others who are aiming for the seal. This frustrates me, as it makes challenges that are otherwise fun, extremely unfun.
    Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Kiradawea said:
    Everiine said:

    Kagato said:
    I know people that simply said "Ugh, screw this" and disappeared until after ascension was well and truly over, because they knew it just wasn't worth the headache
    This is me pretty much every Ascension. From the day of the first Seal competition until the Staff is claimed, I tend to be pretty scarce, but not because of getting my face ground into the dirt, but because that time brings out the worst in players, the most lag, and the most frustration. So I simply don't participate. I have 0 fun during any Seal competition except Knowledge, and -0 fun during the Ascension itself. I'll probably have to show up this year, though.
    A depressing sentiment, but I can't say I fully disagree. Personally, I *love* the Knowledge and Nature challenges. They provide what I find to be an extremely enjoyable challenge. But while Knowledge is in a safe room, where all that matters is hoping your previous months of cramming worked out, Nature is out in the "wild" so to say. The Nature challenge, searching all across the basin through a scavenger hunt, is a lot of fun. But the event itself is plagued by a lot of instances of trying to push the opposition down, rather than lifting up your own. Every year, there are people who would focus on trying to force praying on others who are aiming for the seal. This frustrates me, as it makes challenges that are otherwise fun, extremely unfun.
    In other challenges yes, but not typically in Nature. Last year, I was definitely helping Gaudi get around to points more than slowing down other people, and I'm definitely the first person to go hound opposition. It's all because you get status for killing in Nature and no one wants status.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    edited August 2014
    The only hounding in Nature is that the Prime Fulcrux gets camped by a killsquad.

    Just don't use the fulcrux routes.


    Edit: I've been corrected on this, apparently some people do declare hinder on prime. The only actual killing takes place in Fulcrux though.

    Edit of edit: Huh, actually turns out someone is daft enough to do a one time kill on Prime during Nature... that's makes you about as much use as a chocolate radiator really when you can't do anything to impede them afterwards.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Synkarin said:
    It doesn't help when prominent leadertype people are spouting 'why bother' rhetoric either. 

    It's important to remember that typically the people that are winning these things have also lost them and lost them hard. Until Xenthos, Glom lost 3 ascensions in a row, in disappointing fashion. This was despite being the top Org at the time, and winning pretty much everything else.

    I've lost the War seal competition not once, but twice because of a stupid mistake on my end. A stupid noob mistake I shouldn't ever be making. 

    Being on the losing end means very little when it comes to Ascension.


    Oh, Everiine won't be putting out a why bother vibe (I hope) and will be pushing and keeping people's spirits up, but me, personally, I get almost no enjoyment out of anything related to Ascension, and that's hard.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Honestly Ev, if you want a challenge. Serenwilde hasn't won a seal in the last two years, not sure how long it goes prior to that.

    Gather everyone you can and work out your best shot, and start helping put a plan together for it. I've noticed Seren of late has a more "can do" rather than "do for me" attitude to things.

    Quite frankly, if Seren/Mag get a seal this year and break their duck streak, it'll be for the better.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    IIRC, during Life, the other contender (Anita) was hinder declared and had critical leg wounds and amputations and whatnot for a good amount of time, enough for Aerys to secure the Seal.

    So nobody's really absolved of the "Ascension cruelty", which is ironic because in the end we're all working together to punch Kethuru in the face.

    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    edited August 2014
    Synkarin said:
    It doesn't help when prominent leadertype people are spouting 'why bother' rhetoric either.

    I feel like this thread is preaching some of the same. Let me elaborate:

    I absolutely hate the idea of "if it's not fun, don't do it." That can only lead to selfishness and hedonism (maybe I've been playing in Hallifax too long)?

    But if everyone really did that? You'd be looking at a dead Lusternia right now. It would go back to being 3 orgs in a freeforall -- Magnagora, Gaudiguch and Glomdoring. Because the north would just stop playing. Because it really was that bad.

    People that lived through the Magnagora stomp last summer: can you really tell me you logged in because you were having fun, or because you were trying to anchor your city's place in the game? To give the notion that "hey, we still matter, beware us in revolts and aetherconflict". That's how it's been in Hallifax, at least for myself. I gather that it was much of the same way before Lisaera came in and was so awesome that Serenwilde surged in population again.

    We all make sacrifices for this game, from staying up for revolts/flares to spending millions of essence in a domoth fight that is difficult to find victory in and wildnodes.

    Tacita and Kiradawea -appeared- to want to change the dynamic of Ascension and make it less of a cutthroat killfest, but apparently we weren't ready for that.


    EDIT: Basically, I don't understand. Mork, you said you had a "blast" doing all of this. So you're having fun. And doing it. Are you advising us to not go as far as you did for Ascension or...?

    image
  • Maligorn said:
    That can only lead to selfishness and hedonism (maybe I've been playing in Hallifax too long)?
    I'mma take issue with this, particularly with your narrow definition of fun(partly Mork's fault, I guess. Maybe 'enjoyable' would be a better word?). The idea that a self-centered philosophy directly contradicts collective benefit is, to me, entirely wrong. Playing to anchor your place is just as valid a sense of satisfaction as roflstomping, if somewhat less of a divisive one. The difference is temporal-consistently losing engagements creates a need to play the long game. Winning them provides immediate purpose. In such an abstract environment as Lusternia, players should be motivated primarily by self interest-however, self interest tempered by a healthy dose of foresight.

    Rather than a sort of do as thou wilt, I'd read the post as encouragement to avoid burning out or ruining your own surroundings.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    "If it's not fun, don't do it" is to state that at the end of the day, it's a game and when it starts to feel like a job, or if you aren't enjoying it and burning yourself out, or you feel obligated to forego something as critical as sleep on a regular basis, not just a one off because you happened to be online when a revolt/flare/domoth started, but because you're setting alarms for dormancies and staying up all hours because you know that revolt/flare is imminent, then that's the point to back down and reassess.

    If you're one of those people who only has fun when they're winning, then sure it'll lead to you being selfish, and we've a lot of fair weather fighters in the game. Ultimately those are not the people with the mentality to win seals in the first place: "Why bother if I can't guarantee I'll win?" Those really the kind of people you'd want as TA? However, there's plenty of people in this game who don't need to win to enjoy themselves, a solid losing effort and the value of hindsight for next time is enjoyable, moreso because you can take what you've learned and turn it into a win next time.

    Though what Sidd is saying is also rather different to what I'm talking about, I'm discussing the, excessive, efforts I went to to win, he's talking about people who go "Why bother even turning up to help our side win events?" With the exception of War (which I still don't understand why no one entered) the north had people competing in every single seal. In the PK related events (Chaos, Death, War) XP loss is free, nature is easier the more people you have helping solve riddles (and take the initiative to be a quick teleport target for your competitors), Justice is an "any given sunday" and Knowledge and Beauty are down to the individual. The only two that need co-ordination and aggressive play are Life and Harmony. Harmony had Kelly constantly inquisitioning Uruk while Sidd and I were shattering Ryboi and Pejat, and other people going for Ixion. Life was the North playing rough and it got a result, but a result wasn't guaranteed beforehand, infact in the early stages Anita built quite a lead.

    Sidd's right, people in leadership going "Oh why bother" are being poor examples to follow. The things I regret doing weren't during the event, they were in the run up to it. Ascension itself I did nothing I'd regret, except the lack of sleep. I got so nervous, especially after Life when Death was the next day, that I didn't sleep at all.

    Thing is "fun" is subjective. What one person finds fun, isn't another person's cup of tea. What I'm saying is, don't go beyond what you find fun, to win Ascension, because it might be overkill, but it will certainly burn you out. Anyone who pays the slightest bit of attention to how often I play will tell you that until recently, I've been on nowhere near as often as I use to be. Not even as much as I use to be before I got the idea in my head of going for TA, and that's because I wore myself out unnecessarily.

    You're also selectively quoting there, the phrase was "most of the time." And most of the time, it was. However, there were incidents where I did go too far, and it did become overkill. There are things I did that, in hindsight, were unnecessary and with hindsight I'd not go so far again. That's what I'm trying to pass on here, that yes, what I did to win worked, but you don't need to go that far, at all. I know there are people possibly already making plans, coming up with ideas, trying to tug at the strings and shift odds in their favour, and that's great. The people who prepare are the people who give themselves the best chances to win, and I encourage that.

    I just wanted to give my own insights from what I did, which was excessive, some of it was unnecessary, preparation is key to Ascension and I will encourage people to prepare. But don't sacrifice your own personal well-being, and in the long run, some things are going "too far." Would people be going "Don't bother, what's the point?" before Ascension if they weren't talking from the perspective of their face still in the mud under a boot? Some would because the game would still be too much conflict with no guaranteed win, but I'll be honest I don't really care for those people, on either side, at all. But some people who do fight, would fight, look at Life as an example of what happens when the North gets its shit together.

    I didn't get to see much of the fighting in Death but I heard in the FFA brawlfest that was going on while Kelly and I were chilling in untouchable icedigger pits (still needs fixing) the North had the upper hand in the early fighting. It's just a pity there was no way to capitalise on that because the plan made me untouchable for a good 20 minutes. Come Ascension itself I was one perfect fifth away from being a dead man at 3500+ points, which could have lead to the most amazing "what if" scenario. The chances were there, and having a gameplan of wiping out the competition before it starts is limited in effectiveness at best, because people still came, and the effect it has in the long term does more harm than good.


    If you want a TL:DR for Ascension, here it is. Play to win, just don't play to win at any cost.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • edited August 2014
    I think it goes without saying that only a small proportion of the playerbase enjoy a ruthless winner-takes-all competition - but the people who get the most out of it are also probably the people who buy the most credits and play the most, so it only stands to reason really. Nobody ever dropped a thousand dollars to improve their roleplay or immersion, but then, they don't have to. I'm all for letting the top 5 'whale' players stay awake stressing for a week while the rest of us chill out lmao.

    I mean ultimately the only purely even playing field is the quiz or whatever. Even Beauty is dependant on whether you have access to cartels etc. And we all know that the hamster hunt and the combat contests are programming competitions (not to criticise the amount of skill that goes into designing a good system). Personally I would really like to see the playing field levelled a little but I have no idea how that could be done without hurting the people who ARE willing and able to put a lot of work in - cheapening the contest would be an insult to people like Mork/Karlach who make so many sacrifices to win. MAYBE for example we could make Beauty open entry, and people just mail a design to the admins... but then they'd have too much to review, which I assume is why they do it based on cartels. Likewise, the war challenge could be held in the Overhaul shells where long time fighters would have less of an edge, but that's a ridiculous suggestion. I think Lusternia has always been intended to be something of a microcosm of life more than a 'game' in the sense of mario kart or starcraft or whatever - there are haves and have-nots, there are lifters and leaners, and I think that is why its culture is so unique, and why it means so much to the people who are able to carve out a meaningful place in this little objectivist paradise haha.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    edited August 2014
    Maligorn said:

    But if everyone really did that? You'd be looking at a dead Lusternia right now. It would go back to being 3 orgs in a freeforall -- Magnagora, Gaudiguch and Glomdoring. Because the north would just stop playing. Because it really was that bad.


    It wasn't really that bad. Magnagora was in the exact same position not too long ago. 

    It's bad when you have raids that are several hours long. I dropped from lvl 80 to lvl 75 in one raid. It was crazy. All sorts of people have commented or brought up that old Glom used to be you logged in, deffed up and went to defend for a couple hours, then qq'd only to repeat it the next day. Now a days, if a raid of scuffle lasts more than an hour it's considered too much. People are willing to let you lick your wounds where before they weren't.

    The 'why bother' rhetoric bothers me because it's like shooting yourself in the foot before running a marathon. I much prefer the 'well, we'll probably all die, but lets give it a go' mentality. You can't win if you don't try and saying why bother is giving up before stepping foot in the fight. 

    I feel Aerys/Hallifax's Life victory is the perfect example. As long as I've been playing, a Glommer has won Life, and some teamwork and preparation and they were dethroned. You were still down, yet you pulled off a victory. 

    Edit: It's interesting to think about, the raids and fights used to be soo much worse,  yet the population was arguably stronger. hmmm.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • Synkarin said:

    Edit: It's interesting to think about, the raids and fights used to be soo much worse,  yet the population was arguably stronger. hmmm.
    Because despite the complaints it generates, conflict drives interest and encourages people to participate more. I think there is a limit where excessive conflict = less motivation, but pretending that these sorts of games are all about people being nice to each other and resolving everything "fairly" just results in player boredom. You need people to cause trouble and do mean things to other people, and whether it's fun or not depends a lot on how the ones being harassed find solutions.

    Generally speaking, of course, and conflict also has to be diverse in order to be interesting. If it's the same people being stomped into the dirt in the exact same ways, they'll stop caring pretty quickly.
    "Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Game's boring when no one fights but you can't fault anyone when it's the same people fighting or losing.

    Btw Sidd is right. New Lusternia it's way more tame than before but it was also livelier then.

    Btw no one played I'm war because team pfifth into deathsong is unbeatable. Please let me keep getting 500 credits every year. It's all I can get!
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