What is the idea behind raiding?

AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flightMember Posts: 1,166 Transcendent
Hey,

I wanted to ask this for a long while, to both sides equally, for I truly do not understand it. Those in my org/alliance surely got frustrated at me sometimes being all like 'I'm helping chasing them off, but am not going to raid them'. The reason behind this is, that I can not, in the slightest, wrap my head around it. Granted, I'm probably more a non-com then a com, but, what I observed so far:

- many times it's high class, out-artied powerful pkers on either side slaughtering the people who feel pressured by crying loyals to come and defend ( if they're a little like me, those cries really sting and you'll go up there ) instead of fighting people that are actually a challenge or who even -want- to fight.
- I've had countless times when even only one or two 'newb-ish' fighters or a single 'high-level' fighter shows up on either side, the attacker dodges and runs.
- I've heard "wanting to have PK" for most of the justifications on either side, but... from what I understand, it's not really getting you that. It's not pitting people of comparable skilllevel or of halfway interesting odds against each other. 90% of all raids I see or notice are slaughter fests for either the attacks or the defenders and that not by being outskilled or outnumbered, but by design.

So, my question is, why do people do it?

And before you answer, this is a non-nonsense question, I really am serious. I do not understand the point behind how the raids are held and why they're held both for the attacker and the defender. I mean, the fun's in defeating a group of equally or better skilled opponents, but that's not what I see happening.

If would love to hear answers that have and maybe from that, we could even spring something that's getting people more what they want, instead of something that's more frustrating people who feel obliged to react, then actually being fun? :-)
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Comments

  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    I can only speak for myself. I raid because it's fun to fight. I normally raid with 1 partner, because getting solo kills is prohibitively difficult against anyone who would really be interesting to fight.

    The problem is bringing 2 people to raid often seems like more than the number of people that are willing to defend. Which is depressing. #Emptysternia :/

    I don't do it for mechanical benefits, I don't do it to win. It's just that small group fighting is the part of Lusternia that I enjoy the most, and two-man raids are the best way to get that. I also try to encourage people to join queue for wargames when I feel like there are enough people around, but I rarely get the 7 needed.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited July 2016
    It's difficult to answer your question because I think you're framing the question unfairly. Your points are broad generalizations that miss a lot of context, and in some cases aren't really accurate. Are some people only looking to murder lowbies and avoid fights they may lose? Absolutely. However, that's not everyone, or even the majority, and it's unfair to paint raiding and raiders with the same brush. As a raider, there's actually a tremendous spectrum of reactions and raid types from 1 lowbie trying to damage you to death to 3 org zerg balls with full discretionary powers. Sometimes you know what you'll get, sometimes you don't.

    The short answer is killing people is fun. Lighting up deathsight, collecting essence, adding names to your KILLS list, people react in more entertaining ways than mobs, testing a new strategy, just trying to piss off so and so, etc. Different people have different motivations. Ultimately it's a conflict oriented game, and these players are playing the game as it was designed to be played.

    You can't define "fun" for the PKing community based on your own opinions about PK. Sometimes the fun is fighting a tougher group, sometimes it's in blowing up a bunch of people you've blown up 100 times before, sometimes fighting a big zerg is so challenging it's actually impossible and not fun at all, sometimes people just want the fat gold drops from the Moon Ladies. I've done a thousand meldbombs, and I still get a kick out of watching 5 Northerns explode at once. I also get a kick out of raiding 10 v 1 as a druid on Celestia. I also get a kick out of taking big risks and diving into a Seren with every discretionary power up to see if we can gank Demartel or Ryboi or whoever before they zerg can respond (and sometimes we lose that gamble).

    Generally speaking, it's often just the constantly changing dynamics of raids and Pk that make it entertaining.



  • DemartelDemartel Member Posts: 441 Virtuoso

    if we can gank Demartel or Ryboi or whoever before they zerg can respond (and sometimes we lose that gamble).

    Why you hating on me?! I am going to go cry now.

  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Three Lakes, WIMember Posts: 2,846 Transcendent
    To comment on something Cyndarin said, people raid because it's fun for them, though it's not fun for everyone--which is true of everything in the game. I, for example, have the most fun when I'm having a deep RP conversation with someone with lots of great emotes, or leading a ritual/ceremony, or just having a fun time with possessed-mobs. But I know others who think nothing could be more boring or a bigger waste of time. We all do things in the game that are fun for us.

    Though I'd argue that raiding isn't the -only- way the game or conflicts were meant to be played :) .
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    Demartel said:

    if we can gank Demartel or Ryboi or whoever before they zerg can respond (and sometimes we lose that gamble).

    Why you hating on me?! I am going to go cry now.


    You and your pits deserve 1000 deaths.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    Everiine said:

    To comment on something Cyndarin said, people raid because it's fun for them, though it's not fun for everyone--which is true of everything in the game. I, for example, have the most fun when I'm having a deep RP conversation with someone with lots of great emotes, or leading a ritual/ceremony, or just having a fun time with possessed-mobs. But I know others who think nothing could be more boring or a bigger waste of time. We all do things in the game that are fun for us.

    Though I'd argue that raiding isn't the -only- way the game or conflicts were meant to be played :) .

    You're right, it's absolutely not the only way. I should've phrased that better. The game was designed to have many ways to play it, and conflict/pk is one of them.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,806 Transcendent
    It makes your e-peen larger.
    Bob Junior says, "I had a party hook onnce. Lost it iNsiDee of soMe buxsm dracnari maiden, I thiik."
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,474 Transcendent
    With a similar caveat to Sylandra's, the characters who I've tried to get into raiding have been in it for a variety of reasons, but most often for me it's simply because I/they wanted to cause damage to the opponent's resources/org. I'll admit the threat of violence and vengeance gets the blood flowing and the heart pumping. It's exciting and fun, even if I am and have always been rubbish.

    It takes a high level of dedication and a lot of practice to git gud, though, and I've never really had the time or competitive drive to really become more than 'barely competent' (and most of the time even that was up for debate), so grain of salt with my view, but when I raided, it was always so that I could try to feel important to the team.
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,166 Transcendent
    @Cyndarin I didn't really mean to generalize though it is a broad topic. Maybe my wording was unfair, I certainly didn't mean it so

    I have had it a lot (there's neary every day that seren's ladies cry for help ) that a raider dodged as soon as they got sight of me. I really wondered why someone was doing that? Maybe they were getting a kick out of it, I was really interested what drives them to attack enemy territory but run as soon as they see combatants. I hear the same amount of 'our' people on nil/etherglom, not sure if they run or not.

    I get the kick behind group fights and I know that raiding is a popular way to start that, and I think that's cool and those fights usually are fun. I'm mostly way to sleepy by then to actually join them, but I see them happen.

    But for me, it was most interesting what's the motivation behind these smaller raids that I couldn't really fathom. For example, I wasn't really aware of mechanical benefits (such as huge gold drops) aside of a little power that can be gained.

    So far, the thread has mostly accomplished what I wanted it to, it has broadened my horizon on different player perspectives. It's what I wanted an am glad I got it :-) Thank you all!

    As for the 'change' question, I mostly added it as I recently saw something on the twitter thread, but probably shouldn't have added it in hindsight.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    There used to be really bad serial 'kick-raiders' who would do what you describe and just constantly run in, kick a lady (sometimes literally using KICK) and run away. I think the idea was hoping you'd run after them into a Faethorn gank squad - or just to be as annoying as possible with no other motive. For the most part, that doesn't really happen anymore and a lot of the people notorious for doing so were curbed in other ways.
  • AllyrianneAllyrianne Member Posts: 334 Expert
    edited July 2016
    With something that specific, you might have better luck asking that individual, as I imagine that what inspires people to raid in a certain way changes from person to person and from day to day. Maybe they wanted the money/xp/corpses for offering. Maybe they wanted to strike out against Serenwilde but weren't actually after pvp. Maybe they were after pvp, but were hoping to lure someone into a 1v1 in neutral Faethorn as opposed to risking an enemy territory death. Maybe they were just being annoying. Maybe they were trying to thin the herd of ladies for future Avatar raids. Maybe they were trying to see if there were enough defenders around for a real brawl.

    I'm glad you feel like you got the answers you were looking for from the thread.
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    Yeah, there are kick and runners doing so just to be a pest and make your org drop what they are doing and give them attention. That's a relative minority though. There's another group that gets unfairly labeled as "kick and run" in the same vein as the previous group because they'll kill a mob to initiate a raid and sometimes (a lot of the time) the reaction from the opposing org/org's allies is too large to continue to raid. It goes back to never really knowing what you're getting into when you raid. Sometimes you get a couple Serens, sometimes you get some serens, 5 Hallis, 2 Celestians, and the full set of shrine powers.

    I do this all the time, I kill a Lady and sit in Faethorn or the Seren arch to see who pops up. It's a mixed bag, and I, personally, know I will get a multiple org reaction just because they see my name as opposed to Stevie the new raider. So part of it is just figuring out what you're getting into before diving head first. Look before you leap, etc etc.
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,166 Transcendent
    Again, nice. And it really was just a part of my question that intrigued me, as well. It was about raiding in general otherwise I would not have made a thread. I have gotten quite some answers and they all have shown me something I had not looked at before!
    Avatar / Picture done by Xeii. Wheeeeee 
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Three Lakes, WIMember Posts: 2,846 Transcendent


    I do this all the time, I kill a Lady and sit in Faethorn or the Seren arch to see who pops up. It's a mixed bag, and I, personally, know I will get a multiple org reaction just because they see my name as opposed to Stevie the new raider. So part of it is just figuring out what you're getting into before diving head first. Look before you leap, etc etc.

    I think a reason you get such a big reaction is because of your name, but also because you are so incredibly good. And because there's a worry that if you don't do everything possible to stop a strong person right away, they'll either 1) Figure out they're uncontested and just slaughter everything in sight, or 2) Tell their allies, "Hey, no one's around, they're ripe for the picking!"

    Not saying that's what you do. But having thought about why I hate PvP so much, I think I've figured out that this is often my instinctive reaction to solo raiders.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • DemartelDemartel Member Posts: 441 Virtuoso
    edited July 2016
    There are currently 2 people from the South that kill a Lady and hightail it back to Glomdoring if someone enters Ethereal. Then wait for the people to leave Ethereal and come in and kill another Lady and hightail it back to Glomdoring. They are not looking for a fight, they are not "raiding", they are merely being opportunistic trolls.

    I won't name and shame on the forums and I hope nobody from the North is doing the same thing. If they are, let me know and I will have words with them.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    They are. It happens on all sides.
  • RolsandRolsand Member Posts: 877 Adept
    heh that kick tactic seems cool.
  • DemartelDemartel Member Posts: 441 Virtuoso
    Rolsand said:

    heh that kick tactic seems cool.

    Yes, because it is probably the only tactic you could do successfully.
  • RolsandRolsand Member Posts: 877 Adept
    *BLINK* Wow that really hurt.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,806 Transcendent
    Demartel said:

    There are currently 2 people from the South that kill a Lady and hightail it back to Glomdoring if someone enters Ethereal. Then wait for the people to leave Ethereal and come in and kill another Lady and hightail it back to Glomdoring. They are not looking for a fight, they are not "raiding", they are merely being opportunistic trolls.

    I won't name and shame on the forums and I hope nobody from the North is doing the same thing. If they are, let me know and I will have words with them.

    Their names rhyme with Blavurekhos, Karith, and Blitch.


    Bob Junior says, "I had a party hook onnce. Lost it iNsiDee of soMe buxsm dracnari maiden, I thiik."
  • KileeKilee Member Posts: 354 Master
    Demartel said:

    Rolsand said:

    heh that kick tactic seems cool.

    Yes, because it is probably the only tactic you could do successfully.
    can we get an "ouch" reaction?
    Your numbers today are:
  • TylwythTylwyth Member Posts: 1,579 Mythical
    Demartel said:

    There are currently 2 people from the South that kill a Lady and hightail it back to Glomdoring if someone enters Ethereal. Then wait for the people to leave Ethereal and come in and kill another Lady and hightail it back to Glomdoring. They are not looking for a fight, they are not "raiding", they are merely being opportunistic trolls.

    So? Sometimes(though I haven't bothered do to that in looongish time, for me anyway) I just want to kill ladies for some reason and not PK, it's not a raid or looking for a fight. Just weakening Seren.
    I can see why it would be annoying, but I wouldn't call them(or me) trolls.
    FOR pposters who aren't steingrim:

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  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    Shaddus said:

    Demartel said:

    There are currently 2 people from the South that kill a Lady and hightail it back to Glomdoring if someone enters Ethereal. Then wait for the people to leave Ethereal and come in and kill another Lady and hightail it back to Glomdoring. They are not looking for a fight, they are not "raiding", they are merely being opportunistic trolls.

    I won't name and shame on the forums and I hope nobody from the North is doing the same thing. If they are, let me know and I will have words with them.

    Their names rhyme with Blavurekhos, Karith, and Blitch.


    I know for sure that the first two at least don't fall into this category. They're more of the type who will raid to see who is around and then if it is too overwhelming they'll sit in Faethorn to see if people want to fight in a more equal playing field. If it's not too overwhelming you'll find them charging in and dying anyway.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    Logs of where I kick and run :3
    (I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)

    == Professional Girl Gamer == 
    Yes I play games
    Yes I'm a girl
    get over it
  • DemartelDemartel Member Posts: 441 Virtuoso
    edited July 2016
    #RancouraforSDChamp
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,806 Transcendent
    Yarith said:

    Logs of where I kick and run :3

    Let me make sure I understand. You literally want a log where you run in when nobody is there, kick a daughter, and leave when someone shows up?
    Bob Junior says, "I had a party hook onnce. Lost it iNsiDee of soMe buxsm dracnari maiden, I thiik."
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