I wonder, wonder, who wrote the book of ... WONDER ITEMS!

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Lerad said:

    And of course, above all that, I have also the sentiment that this is an ability that should stay unique to Stealth users.
    I kind of think the "unique to Stealth" ship has sailed, here. :/  Don't get me wrong, I do definitely understand that (having seen a lot of other unique skills getting turned into artifacts), but I'm not really seeing them undoing it entirely.
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  • I think the ability to bypass org enemy lists is something that should be heavily restricted where given. I'm appreciative that Stealth has this functionality, and I understand why people feel it is unfair that only Stealth orgs get this functionality. But it's a functionality that is heavily restricted, not just because it is only in Stealth, but also in its actual implementation - and these restrictions are needed.

    The nerfing of distort wasn't really aimed at deepcover - effectively it resulted to lower the value of the ability, but it doesn't mean that as it is it is useless, not by any stretch of the imagination. That also doesn't mean it needs a buff. There may be room to increase its value by adding minor convenience or functionality to it via an envoy report. But I am opposed to lightening any of its restrictions and costs as it stands, even in the Stealth skillset. Refer to the last sentence of the previous paragraph: these restrictions are needed.

    I am loathe to even suggest this, but if deepcover must stay as the level 20 wondermask ability, then it MUST come with the absolute same restrictions as stealth deepcover. A direct, carbon copy. Requires a corpse (or head) of a player to create some kind of token to use the ability. Lasts 25 months, drops 1 month every use.

    I am loathe to suggest the above because that effectively guts the Stealth skillset. We literally have nothing of value left in there to call our own.

    Again, and again, I reiterate. This is an implementation that should have asked for feedback - the same way the solstice coal/candy implementation asked for feedback. Stealth deepcover is not an ability that should have been released as an artifact for multiple concerns as stated in the above posts. Now that the cat is out of the bag, though, it's going to be a pain in the ass to remove the ability entirely from the level 20 wondermask, because there will have been people who bought it specficially for that ability. Which is why we so sorely needed the feedback session to talk about this before implementation.

  • If having it while a stealth user also made you everyones ally, that would be pretty crazy. No pits, no guards, basically nothing to stop you or impede you in most cases.

    I am more a fan of removing ease of use to enter places you shouldn't be. Yes, it seems minor, and in standard fashion I will not give case examples. Yet think what problems it could cause if people could enter anywhere at will, no protection, no nothing. 

    I am still more a fan of restricting use. Honestly, in most cases I would rather have the mask even if I had stealth, purely because there is only a handful of times the face is important. Especially as passives and such still hit you, so not like you can hide in a group.  I have a bunch of random uses of the named portion of the mask, but the most common use is the thing the wondermask does better.  Nerf use heavily so it is a one way thing, not deepcover, kill, redeepcover.  Deepcover is a normal balance, putting on mask is a balance, then there is timers. It is faster to wondermask and just leave.

    Really, I cannot think of a reason we should not smack it with the nerf bat.  Just because it is spammable and has a purpose, doesn't mean we should buff something else instead of nerfing the issue (hint to some envoys out there).
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Yes, there are definitely people who bought it specifically for that ability.
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  • Which they will still have, just not nearly as often that way.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Malarious said:
    Which they will still have, just not nearly as often that way.
    I can't see myself paying $ for a 1/month 3 minute deepcover.  That's a pretty huge change to the power as stated (there is no limiter at all in the helpfile, after all, and it functions as advertised).  If it got me out of distort, sure, but now?  There's no purpose to-- to me-- of something that limited.  Making a carbon copy as per Lerad's idea is a feasible idea, but I'd personally just prefer to see Monks get a bonus instead.

    Yes, talking about it ahead of time probably would have been better, though! :)
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  • What do you plan to do with said mask that you want to maintain the power as is? I would have asked in game but you weren't on. 
     
    -IF- It were an arty killer, once a DAY is even fine. Note it is still faster (8s v 2s_, has no upkeep (masks), and has no cooldowns.  Could we even get a like 10 minute cooldown because you are not actually trained? Really there is now almost no time the mask version is better, and even then, I likely do not need deepcover for the mission if I have the mask. 

    I am open to ideas though, I do not want to spam the thread.    What is a reasonable buff to existing stealth users AND a reasonable limited for the mask as one who apparently spends 1600-2000 credits to seemingly get deepcover........
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    Can't people disassemble wonder items into the component crystals, or did I imagine that?
  • You can, with a 1 crystal loss.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited October 2016
    Malarious said:
    What do you plan to do with said mask that you want to maintain the power as is? I would have asked in game but you weren't on. 
     
    -IF- It were an arty killer, once a DAY is even fine. Note it is still faster (8s v 2s_, has no upkeep (masks), and has no cooldowns.  Could we even get a like 10 minute cooldown because you are not actually trained? Really there is now almost no time the mask version is better, and even then, I likely do not need deepcover for the mission if I have the mask. 

    I am open to ideas though, I do not want to spam the thread.    What is a reasonable buff to existing stealth users AND a reasonable limited for the mask as one who apparently spends 1600-2000 credits to seemingly get deepcover........
    The only thing I really plan to do with it is to explore to get some rooms I'm missing in my map, with (hopefully) a little less risk; I've actually been doing a bit of this anyways recently (I explored a chunk of Seren the other day before kicking Hart).  3 minutes is not a lot of time for exploring-purposes in a large area. 

    And, even then, it's not an assured thing because I'll still be triggering enemy-list-things (like traps, spirit watchers, etc).  But exploration is 100% the reason I wanted / invested in the ability.  All I did today was run around Ethereal Serenwilde a little bit and say hi to the Ladies that suddenly discovered they had no interest in trying to murder me (didn't say hello to any Avatars).

    I have no objection to needing to do something with a corpse to be able to use it.  Honestly, when I read the help file I fully expected it to function similarly to the actual Deepcover skill (though I was wondering how we were supposed to get masks).  It was a bit of a surprise to not need that requirement at all.

    I also had one idea earlier for Stealth monks with regards to enemy lists.  Maybe instead of immune to enemy lists, just have it do a 1x Gloomtide effect on the Stealth monk only when they Deepcover (removes them from all enemy lists)?  That way if someone notices / needs to they can just re-enemy the monk (same as Gloomtide), instead of being immune to enemy-list-effects during the entire duration of the (edit: Deepcover).
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    So, no people bought "this artifact" for the power. They bought 20 crystals and can get back 19 of them if they don't like a new power, right? 
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited October 2016
    Enyalida said:
    Can't people disassemble wonder items into the component crystals, or did I imagine that?
    No other wonder items I want at this point, so... not sure what good that does?  Anyone who had other things that they'd want to use those 19 wonder crystals on probably would have... already used them on that something else.  Crystals bought for this power were bought specifically for this power.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Enyalida said:
    So, no people bought "this artifact" for the power. They bought 20 crystals and can get back 19 of them if they don't like a new power, right? 
    I know of no (IRE approved) way to turn wonder crystals back into RL money.

    Do you?
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  • I think if we want to buff deepcover, it needs to be more thoroughly discussed on its own merits - preferably via an envoy report, with the development of ideas and argument recorded for proper review, and not only because of a consideration of whether or not it is an artifact now. That should, naturally, come into the picture as well, of course, but regardless, I don't believe that the deepcover as it is right now in the wondermask is an acceptable implementation.

    Requiring a corpse, and that corpse giving only limited uses, is a restriction that absolutely needs to be put in. The exact number can be alittle flexible, but it should be important to note here that 25 (which also naturally decays with time) is a fairly good sweet-spot. Dropping that is going to severely limit the ability more than I personally feel it should be limited, especially for a level 20 wonderitem, but any more than 25 is not really fair or desirable, as the limit loses meaning when the length becomes long enough that you can use it with impunity and little fear of running out of charges.

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Lerad said:
    I think if we want to buff deepcover, it needs to be more thoroughly discussed on its own merits - preferably via an envoy report, with the development of ideas and argument recorded for proper review, and not only because of a consideration of whether or not it is an artifact now. That should, naturally, come into the picture as well, of course, but regardless, I don't believe that the deepcover as it is right now in the wondermask is an acceptable implementation.

    Requiring a corpse, and that corpse giving only limited uses, is a restriction that absolutely needs to be put in. The exact number can be alittle flexible, but it should be important to note here that 25 (which also naturally decays with time) is a fairly good sweet-spot. Dropping that is going to severely limit the ability more than I personally feel it should be limited, especially for a level 20 wonderitem, but any more than 25 is not really fair or desirable, as the limit loses meaning when the length becomes long enough that you can use it with impunity and little fear of running out of charges.
    As stated, I expected corpses to be involved somehow... and I feel like any other initial investors in the artifact, based on reading the help file, would have too (since it specifically says access to the Deepcover command).  I can't think of any reasonable objection to having the same limiter in place for the artifact as for the actual ability.
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  • edited October 2016
    I don't think deepcover is as big of a deal as some others here, but honestly I would rather it be changed for other reasons.

    What if the 20x power let you use TWO mask faces at once, AND let you get all of the 2/7 influence buffs at once additionally? Having to swap every influence is awkward, and I think two of the other powers would be a nice utility.
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    edited October 2016
    Lerad said:
    Nobody has used deepcover to "cause too much grief" to organisations because they've been pretty limited in how much they can do so. The kind of grief that can be done in deepcover is already limited, and won't change much. You can't run around attacking people in their orgs without getting guards on you because deepcover drops on aggressive actions. That's not going to change. And you don't see stealth users infiltrating your org every single day because there's a cost to doing so - the limited amount of uses for each mask that a stealth user has. Using it frivolously doesn't make sense, lest the mask is not there when you actually need it.

    The use of deepcover is not in enemy org territory - there's little to gain there. The use of deepcover is in quests - allowing stealth users to do certain quests in peace, or get access to certain quests without hefty parley fines or difficult amnesty attempts. Or, of course, to mess up conflict quests for enemies. And as I've also argued in a past thread about this - usage of deepcover for quests is absolutely counterable if you're prepared. As long as you're not caught with your pants down, you don't even need a team to protect, say, the dwarven monarch from assassination. Indoor rooms, guards and a pit is all you need. Similar examples can be made for other conflict quests. Deepcover certainly does afford an advantage, but one that is very tempered with its costs and restrictions. And I think it's fair to let the stealth skillset get to feel special and unique in its access to a powerful but niche ability with proper costs and restrictions.

    Costs and restrictions that the wondermask doesn't have.
    Malarious kept up a pretty consistent siege of Rockholm with deepcover, both destroying our painting and killing the King and his seer. This lasted about two days until people stopped caring about who was king/queen of the Dwarves -- but the ease at with which he could bypass all of our defences and the fact that we had to sit there and babysit the King was pretty frustrating and anti-fun.

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  • It's just a little mind-boggling to me that something can be released to the greater public -- complained about because of its (admittedly much less limited) (but also no more or less effective) power -- and the general consensus is to buff the original users of the skill instead of taking a good hard look at both Veil and Deepcover and thinking "wow, this could actually be nerfed".

    Normally this is where I'd say that you could feasibly nerf both of those skills and then work on the rest of the derelict Stealth skillset, but you're already there. :|

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  • Also: the reason you don't hear about Veil being overpowered is because it has a very niche, and yet still over-the-top use. Just because it doesn't always spill into the forums doesn't mean that most people get a sour taste in their mouth when a skilled/artied Stealth user is present during a wildnodes (as an example of something that is year-round rather than the anniversary/seal events).

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  • You could say the same about pratfall. I mean its a fairly specific ability to just give to everyone as well.

    I mean I know its being looked at at the moment via the envoys but its already possible to balance stack loss with it to insane levels, through in more people having it and more classes now having access to it. If pratfalls balance loss stacking isn't resolved I could see this wonder item becoming a must have item for big world events. I mean a team of four being able to balance lock four enemies with no set up which also doing large damage +what ever passives their class does is pretty powerful.

    The debating buff people have already raised as being outside the buff system. Which is creating more outliers which is fine if thats what you want but well you guys have just gone through just a huge(still going through) amount of work to try and balance the game and set up a standardised buff system why start breaking that system soo soon after its  been made?

    Also isn't  Cat Face a hard counter to Necromancy balance and crux tatics?

    I mean the deepcover thing is basically a homogenisation of skills via artifacts. You can basically buy most of the skills in totems. Which is one of the reasons why I think trackers are so popular because you can get all the best advantages of tracking and totems as a warrior with enough dingbats and credits.
  • edited October 2016
    Maligorn said:
    It's just a little mind-boggling to me that something can be released to the greater public -- complained about because of its (admittedly much less limited) (but also no more or less effective) power -- and the general consensus is to buff the original users of the skill instead of taking a good hard look at both Veil and Deepcover and thinking "wow, this could actually be nerfed".

    Normally this is where I'd say that you could feasibly nerf both of those skills and then work on the rest of the derelict Stealth skillset, but you're already there. :|
    Maligorn said:
    Also: the reason you don't hear about Veil being overpowered is because it has a very niche, and yet still over-the-top use. Just because it doesn't always spill into the forums doesn't mean that most people get a sour taste in their mouth when a skilled/artied Stealth user is present during a wildnodes (as an example of something that is year-round rather than the anniversary/seal events).
    I'm here, sitting in this thread, having wrote multiple posts not just here, and in other threads in the past, and not yet seen an argument that gives weight to complaints to make them anything more than just... complaints.

    It's not like I'm plugging my ears, refusing to listen, you know. I've presented arguments, I've quoted numbers, over and over and over. All I've had in response is silence and then, a few months down the road, "STEALTH IS OVERPOWERED. VEIL IS OVERPOWERED. DEEPCOVER IS OVERPOWERED."

    I didn't quote your longer post about Rockholm, but that's also what I'm replying to. I said, you needed indoor rooms, guards and a pit. And in truth, that IS all you need. If you don't have a pit, monolith and an icewall before the indoors room can substitute. Or an illusionary wall and a guster. Give me a proper argument, show me how deepcover can get past that. I don't know how Malarious got past your defenses, but if you don't give me solid arguments pointing to weaknesses in mine, I'm not about to budge on my stance just because you're crying about feeling sour. 

    We've also dedicated half a page in this thread to running through Veil and how much it actually affects Chaos, which turns out to be very little. Where are the arguments otherwise that disprove what has been said in this thread? 

    As an additional note, deepcover has very, very, very little use in wildnodes. It does not, and has never, affected player enemy lists. Melds, pits, bard songs, even spectacles of clairvoyance etc etc will not stop working because of deepcover. There is nothing you can gain by deepcovering in wildnodes, beyond ignoring shrine powers. And war shrines cannot be raised outside of org territory anymore. So nope, no shrine distort, not even invasion mobs to deepcover past in wildnodes. The stealth monk that deepcovers in wildnodes is literally wasting 10p. The only thing it stops is probably herald. WOW. HOW OVERPOWERED. Your "example of something that is year-round rather than the anniversary/seal events" is almost literally entirely irrelevant to deepcover.

    Edit: Okay, I read your posts again, and apparently it's Veil that you're complaining about in Wildnodes. Right, veil has a much bigger impact in wildnodes than deepcover does. That's a valid point. But just because it has an impact, doesn't mean it is overpowered. What's the argument about Veil and wildnodes? How is it overpowered in your arguments? I'm willing to engage you, take back my previous statement about your being misinformed, and actually engage your arguments - if you give me one to respond to.

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Your argument there is why I personally don't see the deepcover power as being Just Too Much for a wonder item by the way, Lerad, and why I'd prefer to see a buff to the Monk version when they have the Wondermask set to Skull.  I'm very much in agreement on the ability, it's a neat one but it's not a broken one imo.

    I don't mind doing the limiting thing to bring them into equilibrium, but I'm just not sure what the limiting actually benefits balance-wise now that it's not getting you out of Distort (I know I keep saying this, but old Distort was a monster and this made Deepcover really strong, it was the main use of the ability in my eyes).
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  • My opposition to deepcover being a wonderitem power as long as it has the same restrictions as the stealth version (I'm assuming that's the wavelength we're on) is not that it's overpowered when given to everyone else, but that I would have preferred something uniquely valuable remain as a stealth-only ability. Like I said, as well, I acknowledge the possibility that it's too late to keep the ability as such when it's already released, which is why I say that the least we can do is to make sure it is functionally the same as the stealth version, instead of being a less restricted one.

    Limiting the current implementation of the wondermask deepcover is important because you don't want to give everyone the ability to bypass org enemy lists without restrictions. Giving everyone the ability to bypass org enemy lists, but with the same caveats as any stealth user has (needs preparation, limited uses) is perfectly fine (beyond the fact that the best abilities in stealth are no longer unique to stealth), but letting anyone  be able to choose any random newbie name and just walk past guards willy nilly is really not something we want to see. Stealth users can't do that now - they need to actually go out and kill a newbie (which is, obviously, frowned upon), and that obviously takes prep time.

    Deepcover as it is continues to provide access to a stealthy way to complete certain conflict quests, which I believe is in-line with the skillset's original intention, and I'm not very keen on changing it from that. And some quests that you can use deepcover to make things easier, like the undervault ones, continue to give it value. It also does continue to be a good scouting tool to bypass guard stacks, as long as it has proper limitations. So I don't think it'll be a good idea to remove those limitations either.

    It no longer being affected by distort blocking movement is also not really a reason to lift its restrictions. While effectively, the "main use" of the ability in the past was to bypass distort, that's not actually its core functionality. It's core functionality, which is to bypass org enemy lists, remains unchanged, and its restrictions should remain unchanged too.

  • edited October 2016
    The preparation vs no preparation thing makes the mask version super more powerful than the stealth version.

    Like the stealth one requires the corpse mask of someone right? So there are ways to track it.  First the only corpses are either allies of the monk who volunteered for it in which case well you want to kill them anyway or secondly enemies. So to be effective you need to kill an enemy and get their mask, its not a hard task to keep track of whos who on your team. Also if you wanted to its not hard to keep track of who on your own team died and what monks are present. EG Lerad was present when Falmiis died so I'd know that the name Falmiis may be suspicious.

    So you can use that to identify if someone should be showing up on scent etc. Like if I see Athree on scent but he's not on cwho a quick little database check would tell him that that is a fake Athree i'm scenting and allow me to hunt it. Like for events you could do a quick little wh, scent or cwho check to get a database list of ally names at the start and then if anyone whos not on the list shows up then you know its suspicious/

    Now its still a pretty good defence but you could figure out what masks the monk has eventually and report back. Plus once you know what masks the monk has boom problem solved.

    So the monk one can be countered with a bit of planning and knowledge. If deepcover can be done out of the blue and with no preparation then these knowledge counters wont work Well ok they will work to some extent but no where near as effectively as the monk version.

    Like oh no someone knows who I was and I dont have a corpse mask Just change to someone else, do a quick who/scry and I can see wobou is defending Tarus but I want to snipe a node from Hallifax so I appear as Wobou and walk in no problems. Sure I could still be caught but a monk couldn't do this as easily as a wondermask person.

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited October 2016
    ?  The wondermask won't make you look like Wobou (per the announce itself), so you lost me there.  It just makes NPCs and org-related effects treat you as if you were Wobou.  All players will still see you.

    Edit: Deepcover is not Masquerade.  Masquerade is what makes you look like the person to players iirc.  Deepcover is what makes you look like the person to orgs/NPCs.
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    So basically, Shaddus can deepcover as Forren and stand at the Pool on Prime, chatting with the guards, so long as no actual players notice.



    Seems legit.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord

    ct Why is Shaddus at the Pool talking to guards?
    (Celest): Someone says, "He thinks he is being cute pretending to be Forren.  We are playing along so as not to hurt his feelings."

    I always knew those Celestians were softhearted.
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  • Let me be a little more clear now that I've slept. My beef is more with Veil than with Deepcover by a long shot (consider my first post to be the only relevant one if you like, even if it is just a complaint), so we can probably stop debating about it since this thread is about the Wondermask Deepcover.

    I could start a new thread about Veil, but I don't really care to. If someone else does, I'll jump in.

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  • LuceLuce Fox Populi
    Does the Deepmask ability cause mobs that react to specific individuals differently to do so? Like, if Shaddus Deepmasked as Xenthos, would Brennan start crowing about the crown?
  • After some testing (Thanks @Xenthos ), deepcover with or without glamours is really not a huge concern. You can't do anything hostile, you can still be scented and scried as yourself. Beyond exploring or just poking around places without being hassled by guards/people, I can't see any major uses so far.

    Pratfall on the other hand.. yeah that's pretty nice...
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