Alternate nouns for weapon names

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,893 Transcendent
    edited May 2013
    Eventru said:
    "Sword" is an appropriate noun for a katana at least. So there's a bit of creative flexibility there. Not so much with bardiches... kinda wish those'd take "spear" as a noun. Doesn't really seem to be any rhyme or reason as to what patterns have extra nouns and which don't.
    There is. Spears don't really belong in Cavalry; that's all bladed pole arms, really, not spears/tridents/etc.
    Uh... sure they do.  A jousting lance is basically a spear with a blunted tip.  That's why I've figured that customizing a bardiche into a spear (as an example that keeps coming up) was allowed.

    Edit: Or, having done some very basic preliminary research, a lance is pretty much equivalent to a spear; supposedly in earlier times the two were pretty much interchangeable as terms go).
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  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    It also depends on where exactly, both geographically and temporally, you are talking about with "earlier times". Eastern weapon traditions seem similar, but the designs can be fairly different. A chinese spear can be very different from an english spear, and whether or not that's due to translation error is entirely up for debate.

    Overall, it really doesn't matter what standard you are drawing from. What the admin say is the final say, IS the final say. What we're asking for is just some more flexibility, because as it is, Speed weapons _are_ the only weapon type any warrior will use, unless they don't care about weapon stats. If the choice of weapon nouns available in the forging design is meant to actually give players a choice, then it would be logical to separate those nouns from the weapon type. For as long as stats are involved, there is no choice period. Only the illusion of one.

    For all other crafting that doesn't come saddled with the old-code weapons and forging does, there is no reason to make any changes from the current status quo. Items should be separated by their nouns on a RP basis, and customizations should adhere to admin policy, whatever it is. For weapons, such restrictions are patently unfair.

  • EventruEventru Member, Gods Posts: 719 Divine
    edited May 2013
    Xenthos said:
    Eventru said:
    "Sword" is an appropriate noun for a katana at least. So there's a bit of creative flexibility there. Not so much with bardiches... kinda wish those'd take "spear" as a noun. Doesn't really seem to be any rhyme or reason as to what patterns have extra nouns and which don't.
    There is. Spears don't really belong in Cavalry; that's all bladed pole arms, really, not spears/tridents/etc.
    Uh... sure they do.  A jousting lance is basically a spear with a blunted tip.  That's why I've figured that customizing a bardiche into a spear (as an example that keeps coming up) was allowed.

    Edit: Or, having done some very basic preliminary research, a lance is pretty much equivalent to a spear; supposedly in earlier times the two were pretty much interchangeable as terms go).
    Didn't realize lances were a Cavalry design, pretty sure it's glaives/bardiches/halberds. (All bladed polearms)

    Anyways, spears/tridents/etc don't really belong in Cavalry – and a lance is a fair bit different than a standard spear/trident; lances are a type of spear, yes, and at times were interchangeable in our own history, however lances are typically longer and heavier, designed specifically for use from horseback. Spears is a pretty broad term (see: javelins/throwing spears, lances, etc) but when we reference spears as a design, while usable from horseback, they are probably more fit for use on foot (see: greek hoplites).

    And when I said "Cavalry" I was specifically referring to the skillset "Cavalry", not "cavalry" or mounted fighters.
  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    edited May 2013
    But... That's exactly what the skill is (mounted combat). In fact, if you aren't mounted, you can't perform any affliction above medium wounds, about. You can check xiel's wound chart for the gritty details. As far as saying cavaliers should only use bladed pole arms (instead of also just tipped pile arms like spears, and if this isn't what you're saying, I apologize) just doesn't make sense to me. Cavaliers only hit with the blade of their weapon when they jab, thrusting the tip into their enemy to sever tendons, arteries, and impale them. When they swing, they hit with the shaft of their weapon - blunt damage with no bleeding attached. How does a spear or trident not perfectly suit the flavor of this skill? P.s. Apologies for any terrible spelling or formatting. I'm being lazy at work since there's not much to get done before lunch and don't have the patience to deal with my fat thumbs and this little box -.-
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    It's easy to say that Lusternian Cavalry is this or is that, and thusly this weapon or that weapon should or should not be logical to be used with it. However, such rationalizations are just that, rationalizations.

    As a text game, Lusternia allows players to have a great deal more freedom in imagining the actual execution, look and the details behind the skillsets. Unless every skill description comes complete with a thesis explaining the physics behind it, there's no way to standardize every single player's imagination of what actually is done when a player uses a skill. For example, I always imagine Nekotai (myself) to fight crouched low on the ground, with arms spread out in a ready-to-hug position. However, plenty of others would disagree with me, there's a picture on the Lusternian wiki that imagines a nekotai fighting by standing on one-leg, with the other tucked up and ready to lash out (ie. chinese "phoenix stance" martial arts style). None of these variations are actually canon - we are left to imagine it as best we can.

    This is a good thing, not a bad thing. This is because as we rationalize, we claim ownership of our own ideas, resulting in a far greater sense of immersion than in a graphical game which dictates exactly how characters look like when they perform abilities, standardizing it into the same thing for every single player. But as we come to "own" these imaginations of ours, it's easy to forget that they aren't canon. Whether it be Eventru's explanations as to why "spears" aren't appropriate for Lusternian Cavalry, or Kio's arguments otherwise, the fact is that even the designer behind the skillset has little control over what the skillset is actually imagined to be in the minds of the players - and that this perception will never become official, nor will they ever be changed just by an admin saying otherwise.

    The result of this imagination that cannot be controlled is simple: while the designer behind the skill may have a perfectly reasonable and logical thesis that explains why certain weapon types are allowed and why certain other types are not, these restrictions on what weapon nouns can be used is, after the skillset is released, effectively arbitrary. Rationalizations as to why, and the "reasons" behind such restrictions, are effectively irrelevant due to player ownership of their imagined characters. What is important for us as players is that there is SOME choice. Just four will do. By seperating the nouns from stat-limits, (by implementing one of the many suggestions listed in this thread) this choice is finally enabled. It may be a sore point for some that a spear will never become a noun that can be used as a Cavalier weapon, but that's really just a minor point. What's important for player satisfaction (and thus important for admins wanting to make the game good) is that there is an actual choice enabled for players.

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,893 Transcendent
    edited May 2013
    Eventru said:


    And when I said "Cavalry" I was specifically referring to the skillset "Cavalry", not "cavalry" or mounted fighters.

    I think the confusion here is that there is no Cavalry skillset, so when you referenced it I immediately switched to real-world examples.

    I imagine a cavalry skillset would have skills for fighting in tandem with other Cavaliers. /me imagines a line of Cavaliers charging across a field with weapons leveled.
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  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    And Lerad reigns it back in!

    Not to go terribly off topic again, but I love that you mentioned what you did about how we, as a player, imagine our alter-egos. That's why I asked why Eventru didn't see a spear as available weapon. In my own head, it fits perfectly with the vision I have when I land an impale or a pincharge. It's nice to get a glimpse of what other people see when they play the game. It would be interesting to start a thread about how you imagine your character beyond just what they look like.

    Anywho, let me use a halberd as a "speed weapon," because they're pretty.
  • EventruEventru Member, Gods Posts: 719 Divine
    Cavalry, Cavalier, whichever. Same same!

    The question is if there was a reason why spears and tridents weren't included; yes, there is. I gave a few examples, but I'm sure there are others. I don't have much else to add, heh.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,893 Transcendent
    Eventru said:

    Cavalry, Cavalier, whichever. Same same!

    The question is if there was a reason why spears and tridents weren't included; yes, there is. I gave a few examples, but I'm sure there are others. I don't have much else to add, heh.

    Cavalry tends to imply an organized group, whereas a cavalier is a singular entity. Not same-same at all!

    You are right that "spear" encompasses a broad range and style of weapons (which does seem to include lances on an OOC level, but in Lusternia it can be seen as a much more limited in scope weapon type.

    It was said that someone successfully had their polearm customized to be a spear. I do not know if this is the case, but if so, my posts were an explanation as to why I feel it could have been justified.

    I am perfectly happy with setting templates to be speed, precision, damage and letting people use whatever weapon noun for the weapon type that they want (from a list of the spec's choices, of course).
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  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    This makes me want a cavalry skill for cavaliers to group up as a unit.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess Member Posts: 2,927 Transcendent
    edited May 2013
    If memory serves, during the Heart of Shallah event, the tae'dae cavaliers that kept popping up were using lances. Technically, abilities like pincharge, jousting, etc, etc, etc should be favoring the lance rather than the bardiche. I personally do not see how one could actually perform an impale on a bardiche, truth be told. You could, in theory, but a lance/spear/trident would be much better suited to the task than a bardiche.

    Not quite certain why the bardiche is the speed weapon either. I can see a spear being much better suited for such actions than a bardiche, what with it essentially being a giant single-blade axe with a longer haft. On that note, polearms, more often than not (Read: Halberd, Bardiche, Spear, Trident) are not weapons designed for a mounted soldier to fight against a foot soldier rather than the other way around. I can see a spear and possibly a trident being used from horseback as in both cases you can lunge with it using one arm rather than both which is what it would take to swing a bardiche or a halberd. True, halberds can and often times do have a sharp tip at the end of the haft, but that is still limited in penetrating power by the blade of the axe itself.

    A lance, on the other hand... and I strongly disagree with the claim that it is a spear with a blunted tip (the jousting tournaments in medieval times were done using a blunted lance, meaning that normally, it does not work in such a fashion) has been quite often a weapon used by mounted soldiers. And to those that will claim that this is Lusternia, not real life... well, the tae'dae cavaliers from the alternate timeline used lances exclusively.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,893 Transcendent
    I specifically said a jousting lance was basically a spear with a blunted tip!
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  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    Spears are traditionally shorter, lighter and used as a projectile.

    Lances are far more sturdier, and bulkier.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess Member Posts: 2,927 Transcendent
    Morkarion said:
    Spears are traditionally shorter, lighter and used as a projectile.

    Lances are far more sturdier, and bulkier.
    You're thinking javelin. Those are the throwing ones. While it is true that a spear can be thrown as well, it can also quite effectively be used to stab.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    I meant to say "can be used" sorry.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • CadfaelCadfael Member Posts: 50 Apprentice
    Elanorwen said:
    If memory serves, during the Heart of Shallah event, the tae'dae cavaliers that kept popping up were using lances. Technically, abilities like pincharge, jousting, etc, etc, etc should be favoring the lance rather than the bardiche. I personally do not see how one could actually perform an impale on a bardiche, truth be told. You could, in theory, but a lance/spear/trident would be much better suited to the task than a bardiche.

    Yeah, most of these polearms are more infantry weapons. Not to mention that a bardiche in many ways has more in common with an axe than it does other polearms. It's frickin' short!
  • EventruEventru Member, Gods Posts: 719 Divine
    I've never said spears/tridents/etc aren't suitable for mounted combat.

    I said they're not suitable for Cavaliers, who largely rely on bladed polearms (and lances, which aren't polearms, but usable as such for Cavaliers).

    Big difference!
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess Member Posts: 2,927 Transcendent
    Eventru said:
    I've never said spears/tridents/etc aren't suitable for mounted combat.

    I said they're not suitable for Cavaliers, who largely rely on bladed polearms (and lances, which aren't polearms, but usable as such for Cavaliers).

    Big difference!
    Weird bit is... there's really no consistency across the board with those weapons. A glaive is essentially a spear with a sword instead of a spear tip at the end. A halberd is a spear with a small axe attached to it. A bardiche is an axe with a longer haft, and a lance... well, a lance is essentially a spear with a guard for attacks of the charge type. The guard is there to prevent the weapon from slipping in your grasp when it meets an object at say... 20 MPH speeds.

    That said, when one looks at the characteristics of those four weapons, pretty much the halberd and the bardiche can work in one specific way. The other two work in a distinctly different fashion, so it is a bit hard to see all four weapon types being used for the same kind of attacks. For instance, a swing with a bardiche, halberd or even glaive can be considered cutting attacks. A lance you normally don't swing at all, it can be used in a pinch to smack someone over the head with, I guess, but it is not normally a weapon you'd be swinging around and is rather unwieldy. A jab with a lance is definitely a piercing attack. I guess the same can apply to a glaive... my opinion on the matter really is that a jab is a forward thrust with the weapon. A halberd can theoretically perform the same stabbing motion considering it does have a sharp tip at the end of the haft. A bardiche, though? That one you'll be hitting with the wood part of the weapon, and it is the kind of weapon that will be rather unwieldy for an attack such as that.  Either way, knowing how to use a halberd doesn't necessarily mean that one also knows how to use a glaive or a bardiche, let alone a lance. With the other weapons, it can be argued that they are relatively similar in type of attacks, just different weight classes, although I guess hammers and flails are a bit peculiar as well.


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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Certain chinese (and maybe other eastern cultures too) martial art styles use spears (with spear tips) in swings to trip and confuse opponents, as well as a general long bludgeon, ie. like a staff. So saying a spear is "not normally a weapon you'd be swinging around and is rather unwieldy" isn't entirely accurate.

    Just give the poor warriors their noun types.

  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,681 Transcendent
    edited May 2013
    Hrm. Maybe if we could get @Roark's thoughts if it's even feasible? It would be a pretty great change.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess Member Posts: 2,927 Transcendent
    Lerad said:
    Certain chinese (and maybe other eastern cultures too) martial art styles use spears (with spear tips) in swings to trip and confuse opponents, as well as a general long bludgeon, ie. like a staff. So saying a spear is "not normally a weapon you'd be swinging around and is rather unwieldy" isn't entirely accurate.

    Just give the poor warriors their noun types.
    Lances aren't exactly spears, though.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
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