Leaving Lusternia

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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,314 Transcendent
    edited March 2018
    Would an envoy admin be a possibility at least for a while?
    A volunteer whose primary job is to be there to work to address class and overarching conflict concerns. Maybe reducing some of the monthly slots to free up some space.

    i feel like there are at least some players who would be interested in an opportunity like that
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  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,602 Transcendent
    Lorina said:
    Not to totally re-direct this from Admins, but as a player following (unless rogue) a leader, what are aspects you want to see more of that interest you that a city leader/council can do? I ask people "What can I do for you as your prettiest princess?" to make your play time interesting. I'm at the point where interest is so low to participate in my city, I'm looking at new avenues to take. What's some stuff that I, Avurekhos, Deichtine, Steingrim, Luce, and Sondayga could possibly look at discussing in our secret clan that controls the Basin?
    ((Psssst, I need a reinvite to that clan, I left it after [redacted] with the [redacted] [censored] soup [redacted]))

    More seriously, though, I've noticed engagement in general seems to be really, REALLY low in a lot of respects. Poor Shonjir has been running a contest he's had to extend twice due to lack of entries, and everyone and their sisters has commented to death on how limiting the Family system can be, and how hard it can be to create a family identity while trying to reach and maintain Great House/Most Honourable Family and simultaneously trying to keep poor fits from damaging the family's image.

    We can't get people who weren't already interested in combat to be interested in combat, and a lot of the folks who were in it for RP are getting disenfranchised and leaving or going inactive. Real life kicked my teeth in for a while, and I know Lusternia was one of the first things to suffer for that.

    So, yeah. I'm not an admin, but I am a city leader and I need to know what I can do to help get people more engaged. (And yes, people includes me. I'll be the first to admit that I've forgotten the window was open a few times lately.)
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,277 Transcendent
    I don't know how it is for others, but most of the time I log in, in my city I don't feel any compelling reason to do anything for it ( and anyone who knows my character knows what heavy kind of statement that is, given that Aeldra is such a busy bee ). But to be honest, for the past maybe 3 months it feels like as if Aeldra's living in a ghost town. Or maybe a big city feeling where no one knows each other is a better description of it. It doesn't help that coming from the shattering of the guild that I loved to bits ( still miss you, MD coven :( ), I am probably a lot more out of the loop then I should be.

    Having spent a lot of my playing time both IC and OOC analyzing why I feel this way towards both Celest and the game as a whole, which has essentially turned Aeldra into an org-indifferent person and it bugs me:

    - After all this time, I still don't know about any of the factions. I know all present are trying their best to make them lively, but maybe am simply burned by that was lost... I think it's not unlikely.
    - Logging in, this is the normal thing I see on cwho:
       Currently, there is 1 Citizen on visible Planes and 1 on other Planes.
       To be honest, this breaks my heart and my motivation more then anything else. I know the other person is someone who is, like me, often just logged in so people don't feel that empty but for me that makes it worse.  Knowing you're the only representative of your city for 70% of your play time is a huge hit. ( And yes, I know my timezone isn't helping! )
    - Support. Hell, I know this is a hard one too, especially with the lack of activity Celest suffers, but getting support / reasons to meet up with your city mates is one hell of a killer for me when not having.
    - Purpose. I am not sure, but it seems along with the guilds/faction change a lot of purpose for the individual orgs got lost. Like, for me, Celest just feels like another mantle with another name of late. Others have suggested I may be too dependent on org identity, I don't know. But the question was rised and thus here's the deal of where my problems with my org are.

    Now, solutions, aka what can be done.

    I don't think it's a city leaders or guild leaders fault nor a single persons fault. I think, all we can do is:
    - get our heads together IC and try to create an environment where the org people feel more engaged.
    - Try to create in org hooks for RP / purpose / tasks
    - Try to give people an understanding why an org is more then just a mantle
    - Promote Lore/history/identity.

    I know that's all awfully vague. I for my part reached out IC to try to make the effort and help where I can in this. I hope others will do the same both in my and in other orgs and that we can move forward to create an environment again where people are willing to engage within their org.
    Avatar / Picture done by Xeii. Wheeeeee 
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 641 Expert
    Saran said:
    Would an envoy admin be a possibility at least for a while?
    A volunteer whose primary job is to be there to work to address class and overarching conflict concerns. Maybe reducing some of the monthly slots to free up some space.

    i feel like there are at least some players who would be interested in an opportunity like that
    The trick is finding someone objectively impartial. Most players will have a vested interest in their own skills, so they may not be trusted to be unbiased. 

    If every envoy was out for balance, the system would be great, but that is sadly not the case.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,314 Transcendent
    edited March 2018
    Malarious said:
    Saran said:
    Would an envoy admin be a possibility at least for a while?
    A volunteer whose primary job is to be there to work to address class and overarching conflict concerns. Maybe reducing some of the monthly slots to free up some space.

    i feel like there are at least some players who would be interested in an opportunity like that
    The trick is finding someone objectively impartial. Most players will have a vested interest in their own skills, so they may not be trusted to be unbiased. 

    If every envoy was out for balance, the system would be great, but that is sadly not the case.
    Yeah, that's why I figured it'd have to be an admin role rather than just a super-envoy or something.

    EDIT: The other thing I guess, it'd probably be pretty obvious if they spent all their time just fixing the classes of their favourite org/alliance. 
    Which then becomes a discussion for the higher ups cause they're not really doing the job at that point.
    Post edited by Saran on
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,210 Transcendent
    Maybe gods should have their own version of vote weight. It slowly builds when they rp with their order or actually doing things for said order/their org, and slowly decays when they are inactive or not doing much. Put it where mortals can see it so we know what divine are actually active and which ones log in only sporadically.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,314 Transcendent
    edited March 2018
    While it wouldn't directly help with people wanting an RP Elder, in general, could an alternate style of order help?

    I'm imagining that the current, deeply connected to the Elder, order would be one style.
    But maybe there could be another, more like MKOs, where it's kinda styled around mortals forming their own order about the Elder but less directly connected to Them. Where it matters it's still the same, but just themed differently to note the difference.

    The Elder could still step in if they wanted but the expectation is set for players that they may never do so. (probably also setting an expectation of wrath if you're disrespectful) Similarly, the different setup could make it easier for players to maintain the order without the god being active.

    Indirectly, this could also function as a flag for players looking for an "RP Elder". Cause if they've got the current style then that's them saying they're also looking for that. (I imagine it would be obvious looking at helpfiles and when trying to join the order which style the god has picked)

    Of course, the God could decide that the order has inspired them so they want to change it and be more involved, or maybe they're stepping away so they change it to help the order continue while they're off in the void.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,971 Transcendent
    Luce said:
    ... and everyone and their sisters has commented to death on how limiting the Family system can be, and how hard it can be to create a family identity while trying to reach and maintain Great House/Most Honourable Family and simultaneously trying to keep poor fits from damaging the family's image.

    I had been planning a post built around the family system yesterday in response to Estarra's request for a problem/solution post, actually, but ended up not doing it.  Well, I've done so now; it's titled "Family System."  Feel free to chip in some thoughts.

    Shaddus said:
    Maybe gods should have their own version of vote weight. It slowly builds when they rp with their order or actually doing things for said order/their org, and slowly decays when they are inactive or not doing much. Put it where mortals can see it so we know what divine are actually active and which ones log in only sporadically.
    This sort of thing has been brought up and shot down before, they don't want to be "rating" the admin so that they feel like they're being pushed to do one thing or another.

    I'm not sure how well it's really known, but even the RP-heavy Gods have to do a lot of behind-the-scenes work to build up their RP tools.  You can't just sit there and RP, or you can't do things like build a God-realm, make a Temple, make neat little order-items, etc.  They have to invest a lot of time and energy into the game to make those things for you, too, and your solution would essentially render all of that meaningless.

    Note that I say that as a member of an organization who hasn't really had a fully active God in... a very long time.  We didn't even get our guildhalls until February.  I'd absolutely love more God interactions than we get, I'd love to have a God who is around and RPing all the time, but I can't make / force that to happen.  I'm really happy for whatever little bit of time and attention we are able to get, because I know that the God making it happen is going out of their way to make time for us too, with everything else going on in her real life (on top of game duties) and that means a lot to me.
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  • PortiusPortius Likes big books, cannot lie Member Posts: 1,668 Transcendent
    Posted timezones might be useful for gods, too. I occasionally run into people who join an order, then get frustrated because their online times never line up with the god's. In the past, it that had been a factor for me picking orders, too. Save people from having to ask around to find out.
    Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
  • MakaelaMakaela Member Posts: 435 Adept
    I voted yes as I literally just retired my character. However it was nothing to do with faults in the game or the community.  I just was never happy with quality of my own rp so as a result I was constantly frustrated, I tried taking breaks and coming back but it just never seemed to fix my frustrations at myself.
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  • DaedrothDaedroth Member Posts: 54 Capable
    I've interacted more with Ianir than any other Divine since I came back (I'm pretty sure he didn't enjoy some of said interactions). I am a big fan of his regardless. Ianir = the best.
    Thax seemed interesting, but absent divine are absent.

    Seemed to me like there isn't much point in joining orders since the Divine in question can be removed by events or go inactive at any moment for a really long time. Plus, more often than not the only interactions I see with Divine is a short conversation that ends when someone provokes the Divine and gets god zapped. It loses it's excitement after the hundredth time.

    I already knew who was going to win the Ascension event this year, so I didn't bother to show up for most of it. More important things going on in real life.

    Everyone here already knows my problem with the combat balance. Envoy system, barriers to entry level combat, outdated useless skills... Others have already expressed those arguments well enough in this thread.

    Also, I'm moving on with my life into a much more busy work schedule. I'm going to have more money and too many options for entertainment.

  • LirayLiray Member Posts: 15 Novice
    Maybe?
    It's not like I'm very active IG anyways, been having trouble juggling with my IRL responsibilities and my online time. I mean It'd be a shame, I really enjoy this game, even if I played for a very small amount of time.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,210 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:

    Shaddus said:
    Maybe gods should have their own version of vote weight. It slowly builds when they rp with their order or actually doing things for said order/their org, and slowly decays when they are inactive or not doing much. Put it where mortals can see it so we know what divine are actually active and which ones log in only sporadically.
    This sort of thing has been brought up and shot down before, they don't want to be "rating" the admin so that they feel like they're being pushed to do one thing or another.

    I'm not sure how well it's really known, but even the RP-heavy Gods have to do a lot of behind-the-scenes work to build up their RP tools.  You can't just sit there and RP, or you can't do things like build a God-realm, make a Temple, make neat little order-items, etc.  They have to invest a lot of time and energy into the game to make those things for you, too, and your solution would essentially render all of that meaningless.

    Note that I say that as a member of an organization who hasn't really had a fully active God in... a very long time.  We didn't even get our guildhalls until February.  I'd absolutely love more God interactions than we get, I'd love to have a God who is around and RPing all the time, but I can't make / force that to happen.  I'm really happy for whatever little bit of time and attention we are able to get, because I know that the God making it happen is going out of their way to make time for us too, with everything else going on in her real life (on top of game duties) and that means a lot to me.

    I get it, and I wouldn't want any of our divine to feel like they've been relegated to some sort of rating or percentage. All of the divine we have are pretty awesome in their own way, and I'd love to see them both active and buried under followers. Let's face it, though. There are generally two kinds of people that join orders: Those who are looking for rp/shinies/interactions, and those who are mostly just looking for favors/shrine powers. 

    Now, let's say that we have a god like.....Jimbob the Tentacle of Holiness. Jimbob doesn't like to RP, he's not really good at it. He does, however, code a mean order mob and he's pretty active. He's just not talkative. He assigns himself a 20% RP/ 80% Code in his HELP JIMBOB scroll.

    Along comes Slaughtertooth the Merciful Cupcake. Slaughtertooth doesn't want to roleplay, he just wants to kill people and bake sweets. Pondering his available pantheon, he notices that Jimbob is pretty active and he's probably not likely to stand around prodding Slaughterfish into advancing and dancing in circles. There's no "HOW PROGRESSES?!?!?" here, folks. Sounds like a match made in Celestia. Slaughtertooth kills a bunch of monstrosities, throws them at Jimbob's altar, and BOOM favor. 

    On the other hand, Princess Cooterglitter is looking for someone with a little more flare. Staring at her local pantheon scroll, she bypasses Jimbob and goes straight to Icebidet, Lady of the Silken Stench. Icebidet isn't really much of a coder; she tries hard, but she's probably made more bugs than she's fixed. On the other hand, she's a whiz at all sorts of emotes, knows all of the social rules, and brews an amazing pot of tea. Icebidet has set herself at 75% RP/25% code. 




    Now, I realise that the above random series of paragraphs is pretty nonsensical, and is oversimplified. I'd just like to suggest that divine classify themselves where a mortal can look at them and not just find out that order's rp, but what the mortal is likely to get out of that relationship.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ArixArix Member Posts: 1,423 Transcendent
    I lost it at Princess Cooterglitter
  • MrakMrak Member Posts: 232 Master
    The combat system is currently pretty disaffecting. Things are unbalanced. Whole classes and skillsets are suboptimal. 

    I'm not even an envoy and I find the system infuriating. There's no incentive to work towards balance, and without good-faith effort from all sides things won't work. I don't think that's currently happening. You can see it in the current reports.

    I currently have no plans to leave because the game continues to excel at lore/exploration/questing. The best moments for me have been things like seeing the history of Icewynd or talking about what in the world is going on in Iklara with Ixion. The Tolborolla quest surprised me. The Pandaemonium quest (in particular the banish side) is awesome.
  • ArixArix Member Posts: 1,423 Transcendent
    It doesn't make me want to quit playing, but sometimes I accidentally honors someone with one of the really obnoxious Laurels and I just log right out
  • EjderhaEjderha Member Posts: 185 Gifted
    Estarra said:
    @Ejderha Wow, that's a lot to unload! Unfortunately, we don't have the resources to get more resources, and foregoing monthly promotions means we'd have even less resources (because, believe it or not, they do work) which would result in losing the little resources we have. So I guess it's a little of a Catch 22, but raging at promotions is not going to be productive. Anyway, I have to disagree with the statement that all our systems are fragile or broken. However, that doesn't mean that we aren't open to constructive critiques. Throwing a handful of spaghetti at the wall (i.e., everything is broken, fix it) probably won't stick or get much of a response. What's more helpful, if anyone wants to help, is posting a well thought out proposal focusing on one aspect of the game, whether it's the economy or a skill system or domoths or whatever. Keep in mind, of course, since we do have limited resources, that address some concerns may take time.
    "Wow" If what you took from my post is that I'm 'raging' and 'throwing a handful of spaghetti at the wall,' I'm not sure what to tell you. I think you missed my point entirely, which is that the concerns have been very much out there and well articulated for a long time - that is why people decide to leave. Not because they have problems, but because they've had so many problems for so long, with no sign of change.

    Asking for 'well thought out proposals' like this is all news to you? I removed a lot of details to make the post as short as it is - which is still excessively long - and you chide me for lack of specifics. You focus on one thing, promotions, which I wasn't 'raging' about - merely pondering resource use. If that's non-negotiable, fine. Dismissing one statement doesn't change everything else, nor was that the lynchpin of my meta-complaint.

    I've spent more than my fair share of time testing, discussing, reporting, revising, contributing, thinking about SR's, so to suggest "if anyone wants to help" I should give a well thought out proposal is, at a minimum, not more productive than my post.

    I'm not raging or threatening at any stage. But if I felt unheard before your post, imagine how I feel now.
  • ArixArix Member Posts: 1,423 Transcendent
    edited March 2018
    The worst part about 'crategate' is that Falaeron wasn't even the first person to abuse the crates IIRC, he was just the one everyone chose to crap all over on forums and IG
  • ArkhArkh Member Posts: 39 Apprentice
    I don't think it's right to blame players for the coder team's response time to fix questionable mechanics released into the game. This ranges from the historically broken monthly promos to the Ascension events -- in the end, if there is blame to bear, it rests before the coding and design team. If there are no bugs, there is nothing to abuse.


  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 142 Adept
    I'm just now coming back from an almost year long hiatus, so I'm not imagining that I'll be leaving again soon but you never know. My hiatus was caused by multiple factors, chief among them was a feeling that I wasn't doing well at combat compared to others and that to get on their level I would need 30+ wondergems which is above my paygrade. I also was getting a fair amount of heat for the monk rework which wore me down a bit. The first bit might be applicable to others, I'm doubting the second bit is.
    Xenthos said:

    You also can't just say that everyone who doesn't agree with you is an "administration yes-man".  In one of Lusternia's State-Of-Lusternia posts a number of years ago, she actually threatened that she had been considering shrubbing me (hard to get much more adversarial than that).  Both of us have worked together many times since that point, though.  I'm not shy on pointing out when I think she's done something wrong (usually via an email).  At the same time, though, I'm also going to say when I think they're doing things better than they were.


    I find it interesting that you felt the need to defend yourself from the accusation of being an administration yes-man even though Falaeron didn't mention you in his post.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    I think there's people here who've taken their fair share of advantages on promotions, while they're right about abusing them being not cool, there's some irony here.

    People gave you grief for knowingly abusing something you pointed out as broken, but gave other people grief too. You painted the target on your back the minute you tried to justify it with b.s. about the economy and it being better one person abuses it excessively as opposed to many people benefiting to a lesser extent.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 1,109 Transcendent
    edited March 2018
    Arkh said:
    I don't think it's right to blame players for the coder team's response time to fix questionable mechanics released into the game. This ranges from the historically broken monthly promos to the Ascension events -- in the end, if there is blame to bear, it rests before the coding and design team. If there are no bugs, there is nothing to abuse.


    No. "Blame" - if it needs to be apportioned at all; and I'm not getting into that - for broken promos rests with Producer (to the extent that the Producer looks at each promo/event and says "Yes, flick the switch"). Please don't blame the coders and designers.

    More generally:

    But when you get certain quarters - and you know what, I'm seriously not just talking about one person here - stating that "If something's broken it's okay to abuse it as long as I say it's broken first, but if Glom skills are broken then Glom shouldn't use them" it becomes clear that the deepest problems don't lie in bugs, promotions, or economies but in basic psychological processes that all stem from one place: "Us" and "Them" mentality.

    The problem with Lusty isn't Lusty. It's that people are too invested in the meta and not invested enough in the game itself. It's that the fourth wall has been eroded to the point that what you see walking around in the game are not characters but players in characters' clothing. It's the forums-jingoism-cum-flag-tennis. It's probably Discord, but I don't know because I'm not on it. I am part of that problem - I'm not self-venerating, merely describing the situation. Every single person reading this (probably nobody, I would have stopped reading it by now myself) has the power to make it better. Step 1 is to truly come to terms with the fact that Lusty is a game that can neither harm nor benefit you in real life (I'm talking about the game part of Lusty, not harassment etc).
  • ArkhArkh Member Posts: 39 Apprentice
    That's right, Lusternia is a game. It should be appealing to many, but for a period of many years now it has only been actually fun for an increasingly smaller handful of people. This is why players continue to depart. We have continuously felt that the allure of the game fades with each moneygrab wonder promo, with each questionable sol. 4, with each event tainted by clunky mechanics.

    Lusternia likes to say that it has a lower cost to entry than other IREs, but speaking as one who has played in all but one, this is no longer true. Not to mention that the combat balance here is...well, there is no combat balance. Even Imperian, as ridiculous as the damage meta is over there, is balanced out by equally ridiculous affliction classes. 

    And now that I've namedropped a game, here comes the squad of "but you can't compare games!!!" Sit down, Fabio, yes I can. Fundamentally, they're all the same. There is a reason why players flock to one and flee from another. Honestly, even with all its resources Achaean lore continues to pale in comparison to Lusternia's. But I find it more enjoyable there because of open dialogue (even critical forums threads are left open), balanced combat (more or less, there is no perfect balance but at least every class has a viable 1v1 kill route), and overall more palatable promotions (still not good in the long run, but far better than the 2000cr must-haves here).
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 3,035 Transcendent
    edited March 2018
    If I ever really achieved that neutral state with Lusternia, I would leave. There'd be nothing holding me back.

    I enjoy the game, and I especially appreciate Hallifax's admin. I feel like we've done right by them, and so they do right by us. They're a huge reason why I love the game. It's why I'm an envoy trying to run damage control over the massive imbalance that artifacts have been bringing to the table - though I haven't even gotten around to writing any reports on them because I just don't know where to start.

    Almost all the wonder items (HUGE subset of myriad, gamebreaking abilities), alongside a few other artifacts such as cement socks/runes of mass, are destroying the PK scene. In the right, skilled hands (because it is possible to have a ton of artifacts and still be horrible at PK), and combined with a strong skillset, it's just impossible. A huge portion of the game began, for all intents and purposes, opting out of PvP ///months/// ago and their pure dissatisfaction has either been overlooked or ignored or explained away and shoved to the side. PK has slowly but surely been choked off, and its dying throes began a long time ago - longer than you probably assume I'm thinking. Funnily enough, that coincides with the near-monthly release of ridiculous artifacts. Is it any wonder why people are leaving now?

    Yes, I do feel a right to complain about Glomdoring's skills, but really (and I've mentioned this before) their entire kit just needs a few tweaks. There's only like 5-6 abilities (that's just 5-6 reports) that need attention, as well as shoring up the effectiveness of other orgs' kill strategies. The fault lies almost entirely with artifacts.

    You won't make any revenue when no one is around to buy your artifacts. Think before you ever release another wonder item.

    But seriously, if I knew Lusternia couldn't benefit me (through relaxation, escape, community and stimulating my imagination), I'd be out of here. You're talking now, Versalean, to some of the most loyal players. Making sweeping, useless declarations such as those only contribute to the sense of disenfranchisement.

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  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 1,109 Transcendent
    In many ways @Maligorn, your response to what I've written is exactly what I'm talking about here. I'm not attacking, and if my 'sweeping, useless declarations' have upset you or made you feel disenfranchised then it's time to stop and wonder if you're in a little too deep.

    I'm mentioning Glom skills as an example of intergroup bias, not because you don't "have a right" to complain about Glom skills. But, you know what, if that's how you want to read it, you go on ahead and keep complaining if it's somehow improving your life.

    All that said, I've clearly misrepresented what I was trying to say - genuine apologies. I'll try again, safe in the knowledge that anyone who wants to understand what I'm saying will understand it. Lusty should have the same impact on RL as any other form of entertainment, yes. When you win you should get a little "yay" just like when you beat Sephiroth. But when you lose it shouldn't be as psychologically damaging as it sometimes is - I include myself in this as somebody who has felt pretty effing awful over stuff that's happened entirely within the four walls of a MUD and which really, when all said and done doesn't matter. I've lost RL datasets before, and it didn't feel as bad as that time Player X won the Great Hunt because of a bug. wtf is that about? The Godmin can improve the environment in many, many ways, but what they can't do is stop the playerbase from being dicks to one another, and until that is fixed, what else really matters?
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