Furrikin & Wonderpipe Combo Discussion

13

Comments

  • TremulaTremula Banished Quasiroyal Member Posts: 2,645 Transcendent
    Then in approximately September of 2017 you lost some kills because of a bug. Which lessens the belief that roll is strong, since that is the only time I see it working and not being gusted or otherwise assisted in getting out of the room.
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 505 Expert
    Why is the arbiter of what is a problem ability you reading through logs?  The arbiter of what is a problem ability is not you reading through logs. 


  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    I really think you have to look at it as two different issues that combined are a problem. @Enya

    Furrikin could do with being adjusted on its own to balance it to other races. That is an issue independant of the wonderpipe.

    Then its a question of if having secondary racials is too powerful then what would you do to the artifact?

    I honestly don't think having two demi racials is that big an issue or it wouldn't be if we fix furrikin.

    The thing with demi+ powers is that many of them are exceptionally strong.

    Unstopable carry, faster power regen, stronger healing buffs. These kind of buffs are on a level with roll. Shifting roll to demi+ would fix the issue. The super powerful racials are locked behind the spark then and can't be combo'd/
  • TarkenTarken Member Posts: 50 Adept
    I'd not bother looking in the log thread for examples of when roll would let you live. Its an unfortunate reality that most logs tend to be of people dying, whether to illustrate an issue or ask how to better avoid it.

    Here is one from a few hours ago, though. If that tumble had been roll, that kill would not have happened.

    https://pastebin.com/N2GZuXwn

    Personally I'm in the camp that wonderpipe can be nerfed, but roll is still an excessively powerful skill to have for general availability (that includes as demi+). My personal preference is it goes away entirely, but I feel its not a hill worth dying on given the other major issues to tackle.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Roll at demi+ sets it up how Karlach was saying in making it a choice.

    You have to pick your race for the powerful ability and you can't combo two of the most powerful abilities together then.

    I think Nagasith has a similar issue as well. Its level 50 power is way to good for a level 50 racial.
  • TenakaTenaka Member Posts: 57 Capable
    Furrikin was not an issue when it was a level 50 power before Pipe. It only became an issue when everyone could second race it. How did that happen? Oh, right, an artifact. So the issue is not Furrikin, it is Wonderpipe.

    I also suggested lowering the level of powers the Wonderpipe could give, it was met with "I want a refund then!" which pretty much is a statement all on its own that Wonderpipe is OP.

    Trying to argue all the times the Roll did or did not save someone is just a stupid argument. Lots of skills have saved people from death, but you don't see Roving Bands of those classes with those skills, just like you did not see Roving Bands of second race Furrikin until Wonderpipe.
  • TenakaTenaka Member Posts: 57 Capable
    I also agree that Nagasith spit should be demi+.
  • TarkenTarken Member Posts: 50 Adept
    I mean, you're welcome to that opinion, and I definitely agree the pipe was a huge factor. For myself if wonderpipe got nerfed (which as I said above, I have no issue with), I will primary furrikin with every class outside of acro users, because it is simply better than everything else given our current meta. I shall lament the loss of lolcidian, though.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Furrikin is an issue and the pipe highlights it more so. Would be fine with nagasith spit at demi+
  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 505 Expert
    Oh agreed. The nagasith overall seem way better than Sileni, at any rate - even if that lvl 50 power was fixed. There are a lot of racial powers that need... looking at and fixing, let's say. 
  • AnitaAnita Member Posts: 891 Transcendent
    Deichtine said:
    Furrikin is an issue and the pipe highlights it more so. Would be fine with nagasith spit at demi+
    Sorry, you're wrong. Furrikin was /never/ a problem before the wonderpipe. Please give me proof where everyone and their mother was a furrikin pre-pipe to warrant it being a problem, and then we'll talk about furrikin being a problem. 
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    That's partially because Sileni is just awful.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 505 Expert
    edited May 2018
    Anita said:
    Deichtine said:
    Furrikin is an issue and the pipe highlights it more so. Would be fine with nagasith spit at demi+
    Sorry, you're wrong. Furrikin was /never/ a problem before the wonderpipe. Please give me proof where everyone and their mother was a furrikin pre-pipe to warrant it being a problem, and then we'll talk about furrikin being a problem. 
     Just because something isn't UTTERLY DOMINATING THE GAME AND EVERYONE IS ABUSING IT BECAUSE IT'S SO OPPPPPPPPPP doesn't make it not a problem.  (AKA: "Sorry, you're wrong.")
  • TenakaTenaka Member Posts: 57 Capable
    I don't think that word means what you think it means.
  • TenakaTenaka Member Posts: 57 Capable
    Speaking of  escape skills that are better than roll. *tips hat*
  • WobouWobou Member Posts: 142 Adept
    I said this in the report but I strongly dislike the idea of nerfing a race because of the pipe. And that is exactly what the report is.

    I think we should work incrementally, so far I like the masochism check on slip idea at demi as a way to do that. I think removing roll from furrikin demi is an absurdly strong nerf. Roll should not be behind a 1000cr paywall. If we implement an incremental change and that's not enough then maybe we can look at things like adding 0.5s to roll, or nerfing both somersault and roll.
  • AnitaAnita Member Posts: 891 Transcendent
    Wobou said:
    I said this in the report but I strongly dislike the idea of nerfing a race because of the pipe. And that is exactly what the report is.

    I think we should work incrementally, so far I like the masochism check on slip idea at demi as a way to do that. I think removing roll from furrikin demi is an absurdly strong nerf. Roll should not be behind a 1000cr paywall. If we implement an incremental change and that's not enough then maybe we can look at things like adding 0.5s to roll, or nerfing both somersault and roll.
    Changing how slip works for demi /demi+ is a better way to start, definitely -- especially with how it works with masochism. If it happens that furrikin (being 2nd from pipe thing) is still a problem, then we can reassess again like you say and go from there. 
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,210 Transcendent
    I keep seeing masochism check suggestions for roll. Aside from mobs that group and constantly entangle, why would you need to tumble/roll/somersault in pve?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • JaspetJaspet Member Posts: 75 Capable
    Karlach said:
    I'm not seeing how they're OP (I assume you mean Furrikin, not the pipe). You have a race that can sort of but not quite do what 2/5ths of the classes in this game can do, that's strong, it's not overpowered.

    Potentially do. I would take Furrikin + Psychomet over any other racial in the game + Acrobatics, because I can get half of the reasons I'd take Acrobatics through a racial.

    I don't think anyone is going to win the opinion debate as to whether the ability is 'overpowered', but it's certainly in a tier all on its own when compared to other racial skills.
  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 505 Expert
    edited May 2018
    Jaspet said:
    Karlach said:
    I'm not seeing how they're OP (I assume you mean Furrikin, not the pipe). You have a race that can sort of but not quite do what 2/5ths of the classes in this game can do, that's strong, it's not overpowered.

    Potentially do. I would take Furrikin + Psychomet over any other racial in the game + Acrobatics, because I can get half of the reasons I'd take Acrobatics through a racial.

    I don't think anyone is going to win the opinion debate as to whether the ability is 'overpowered', but it's certainly in a tier all on its own when compared to other racial skills.
    Well yeah, that's the claim.

    Ultimately, I think that the reported furrikin changes will be fine, and that nuking pipe will bring furrikin down from its own tier to merely a "very good tier" and that fixing other races will bring them up to a "good" to "very good" tier as well to join the other races already there. 
  • AnitaAnita Member Posts: 891 Transcendent
    Shaddus said:
    I keep seeing masochism check suggestions for roll. Aside from mobs that group and constantly entangle, why would you need to tumble/roll/somersault in pve?
    Not for roll, for slip.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Jaspet said:
    Karlach said:
    I'm not seeing how they're OP (I assume you mean Furrikin, not the pipe). You have a race that can sort of but not quite do what 2/5ths of the classes in this game can do, that's strong, it's not overpowered.

    Potentially do. I would take Furrikin + Psychomet over any other racial in the game + Acrobatics, because I can get half of the reasons I'd take Acrobatics through a racial.

    I don't think anyone is going to win the opinion debate as to whether the ability is 'overpowered', but it's certainly in a tier all on its own when compared to other racial skills.
    You'd get somersault. You'd get a worse version of contort.

    You don't get balancing, springup,  avoid, airpike, hyperactive, scissorflip. I wouldn't say that's half the reasons at all. 1 1/2 of them.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • TenakaTenaka Member Posts: 57 Capable
    Karlach said:
    Jaspet said:
    Karlach said:
    I'm not seeing how they're OP (I assume you mean Furrikin, not the pipe). You have a race that can sort of but not quite do what 2/5ths of the classes in this game can do, that's strong, it's not overpowered.

    Potentially do. I would take Furrikin + Psychomet over any other racial in the game + Acrobatics, because I can get half of the reasons I'd take Acrobatics through a racial.

    I don't think anyone is going to win the opinion debate as to whether the ability is 'overpowered', but it's certainly in a tier all on its own when compared to other racial skills.
    You'd get somersault. You'd get a worse version of contort.

    You don't get balancing, springup,  avoid, airpike, hyperactive, scissorflip. I wouldn't say that's half the reasons at all. 1 1/2 of them.


    You forgot Dodging, one of the number 1 reasons to take Acrobatics.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Tenaka said:
    Karlach said:
    Jaspet said:
    Karlach said:
    I'm not seeing how they're OP (I assume you mean Furrikin, not the pipe). You have a race that can sort of but not quite do what 2/5ths of the classes in this game can do, that's strong, it's not overpowered.

    Potentially do. I would take Furrikin + Psychomet over any other racial in the game + Acrobatics, because I can get half of the reasons I'd take Acrobatics through a racial.

    I don't think anyone is going to win the opinion debate as to whether the ability is 'overpowered', but it's certainly in a tier all on its own when compared to other racial skills.
    You'd get somersault. You'd get a worse version of contort.

    You don't get balancing, springup,  avoid, airpike, hyperactive, scissorflip. I wouldn't say that's half the reasons at all. 1 1/2 of them.


    You forgot Dodging, one of the number 1 reasons to take Acrobatics.
    Thought I'd mentioned it, think I accidently ate the word, hence the double space before avoid. But yeah, dodging too.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • RasvinRasvin Member Posts: 44 Apprentice
    edited May 2018
    Taking this a completely different direction. Does the fact that tumble/roll/slip are all crucial to PvP suggest a flaw in PvP? I am suggesting that maybe neither wonderpipe nor Furrikin is the issue, but maybe the fact that hit and run is the meta for most classes? Crazy idea what if tumble/slip/somersault were nerfed?

    I have many ideas most bad but some are good. This could be either.  I know this would instantly make several other things our of balance. 
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,623 Transcendent
    IIRC, one of the reasons we have so many escape skills and abilities is because the consensus is that having a way to avoid fights you don't want to take part in without having to eat a death is important. That does lead to a whole bunch of kick and run and jab and juke though.
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,316 Transcendent
    Rasvin said:
    Taking this a completely different direction. Does the fact that tumble/roll/slip are all crucial to PvP suggest a flaw in PvP? I am suggesting that maybe neither wonderpipe nor Furrikin is the issue, but maybe the fact that hit and run is the meta for most classes? Crazy idea what if tumble/slip/somersault were nerfed?

    I have many ideas most bad but some are good. This could be either.  I know this would instantly make several other things our of balance. 
    What luce said, plus the fact that we have a lot of setups that are run or die, in pvp. Slipping out to reset your opponents offense against you is a crucial part of how lusternia's combat works. Changing that, would mean to change a lot of offenses.
    Avatar / Picture done by Xeii. Wheeeeee 
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Rasvin said:
    Taking this a completely different direction. Does the fact that tumble/roll/slip are all crucial to PvP suggest a flaw in PvP? I am suggesting that maybe neither wonderpipe nor Furrikin is the issue, but maybe the fact that hit and run is the meta for most classes? Crazy idea what if tumble/slip/somersault were nerfed?

    I have many ideas most bad but some are good. This could be either.  I know this would instantly make several other things our of balance. 

    You are sort of right in a way and without releaving anything thats work in progress there is potentially something coming in that will change this a little bit in group combat or at least give more counterplay to it.

    Even with some changes to how players can interact with tumble though currently Furrikin is one of the best defensive buffs you can get in the game right now outside of specific class skills.

    The question is should a race have such a strong racial buff in its make up or not. I think no but as you can see a lot of people clearly think racials should impact combat in a large way.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    The common thoughts from a lot of top pvpers and envoys (not all but a large number for a long time, even as far back as Shuyin) has been that escaping combat has been too easy. There has been steps to fix this in the past with changing how skills and artifacts work and Furrkin is just part of this issue that escaping combat is fairly easy.
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