Guards need to be looked at

SorayaSoraya Member Posts: 36 Apprentice
edited November 2012 in Ideas
As it stands now, guards are a wasted effort in protecting the cities. They are a broken mechanic if they cannot be used and people are reluctant to "waste" on them. I think this needs to look at for multiple reasons:
  • Guards are expensive
  • They are a bashing denizen for anyone with artifacts or a small group of raiders.
  • Why are they called guards if they fail to protect that which they are guarding from an RP point of view?
The solution to this should not be too hard to figure out. There is no reason why the guard cost cannot be lowered or the guards placed into categories of might, where the strongest are the most efficient but cost a little more than a lower tier group of guards. Or rebuff the guards and make them stronger based on their positions so when a group of 10 high tier guards are standing at gates they are stronger. From an RP point of view, guards should not be something to be scoffed at. They should be something any raider would have to move around strategically instead of "Oh lol 10 guards? Who wants to hunt?" I know I haven't played very long but guards are imbalanced.

/rant

Edit: I don't know if this issue has been addressed before, and I don't care if it has. I've posted it now.

Comments

  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    Guards are fine. They just need using properly.
  • SorayaSoraya Member Posts: 36 Apprentice
    Draylor said:
    Guards are fine. They just need using properly.
    Lol Really? Of course they are to you, you have artifacts and a system keeping you alive. This should not discourage a city from using them. Lower the cost of them or make them more mechanically useful besides shouting and being moved around and wasting power.
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    edited November 2012
    No, seriously. There is no problem with them. Where the problem comes in is when people are placing a small number without backing them up. Hello, bard guards? You have the option for a stun effect there and when coupled with statues (and a sensible high-tier guard quantity) it becomes -extremely- difficult to just bash them unless you have a substantial group of raiders.

    You put a small number of guards that one or two people can plow through, of course they are going to do it!
  • KaimanahiKaimanahi The One True Queen Member Posts: 719 Transcendent
    Guards are already priced differently based on abilities/utility. I'd agree with Draylor, in that guards are fine so long as they are used correctly. Clumps of 10 are just asking to be bashed. But I mean, really all it takes is for one person to spam web with 10 guards to mount an effective defense. Also, 4/6 of the Basin basically gets "free" guards from their Conquest Pool. (nerf conquest)
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  • SorayaSoraya Member Posts: 36 Apprentice
    Then the issue of cost is no longer an excuse for not using them (hear me magnagora?) It was mostly a rant at how there are NO GUARDS AT NORTH GATES and when I ask why they say it is a waste etc. I kind of guessed it's because they are not being utilized properly.
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    edited November 2012
    Didn't want to be the one to say it, but yeah... Whoever placed them needs to learn how guards work.

    Seriously. 10 marshals, 5 reavers and one of each bard guard. Problem solved. The stun from the bard and with statue effects is enough to put off 99% of people unless there is a group of, say.... 5 or 6 raiders.
  • SorayaSoraya Member Posts: 36 Apprentice
    Draylor said:
    Didn't want to be the one to say it, but yeah... Whoever placed them needs to learn how guards work.
    I complained ICly, they said it would be a waste and made it sound like it was a cost issue, and it would be a waste. I don't see any help scrolls on guards so this was an attempt to fix an assumed broken mechanic. Thanks for responses and fixing my confusion. Still a little angry but not as much
  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    Yeah, to be fair, even I tried telling a few Mag people oocly how to deal with the situation and got a very similar response. :(
  • LothringenLothringen Member Posts: 266 Fabled

    Soraya said:
    Then the issue of cost is no longer an excuse for not using them (hear me magnagora?) It was mostly a rant at how there are NO GUARDS AT NORTH GATES and when I ask why they say it is a waste etc. I kind of guessed it's because they are not being utilized properly.
    Magnagora isn't conquest, but yeah, the small clumps are definitely being misused.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Any less than 20 guards and you are asking for them to be bashed. Even 20 is risky. 10 of each is all you need and no one will want to touch them.

    FYI Artifacts aren't a big deal. I have like 2 combat related arties.
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  • SorayaSoraya Member Posts: 36 Apprentice
    @Lothringen: Well there shouldn't be any reluctance in defending the city, there should be organizational efforts to fix the problem. I don't care. If Draylor and Xena have a combined health of 2394290 then there need to be enough high-tier guards that a combined effort of one strike will kill either one of them. It would save power costs etc and waste less of our character's time on standing around waiting to defend only to die (Okay that second part is only my personal experiences but still!)
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    I'd venture to guess 15 guards would turn Draylor and Xena into smears on the ground.
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  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    When it comes to the upkeep of guards, at least Glom guards cost 25 power per IC month per guard. That means a guard stack of 30 guards would cost 750 power. One stack of 30 for each of the four entrances means 3000 power. Which, I guess, can be a big deal for Mag considering they only have 500 passive power input that I can think of (no villages, no bubbles, no domoths, 500'ish from culture).


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  • DraylorDraylor Member Posts: 373 Capable
    Soraya said:
    If Draylor and Xena have a combined health of 2394290
    She's faeling, I am merian. My base health is less than 5k.
  • SorayaSoraya Member Posts: 36 Apprentice
    Draylor said:
    Soraya said:
    If Draylor and Xena have a combined health of 2394290
    She's faeling, I am merian. My base health is less than 5k.
    Leave my dramatic rant number alone! :P
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Ssaliss said:
    When it comes to the upkeep of guards, at least Glom guards cost 25 power per IC month per guard. That means a guard stack of 30 guards would cost 750 power. One stack of 30 for each of the four entrances means 3000 power. Which, I guess, can be a big deal for Mag considering they only have 500 passive power input that I can think of (no villages, no bubbles, no domoths, 500'ish from culture).


    Forests don't have guards at every entrance and somehow manage to survive. I don't think you get what guards are for. They aren't supposed to turn your org into a fortress. You have statues which should be enough
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  • PhoebusPhoebus tu fui, ego eris. CircumstancesMember Posts: 1,920 Transcendent
    Celina said:
    Ssaliss said:
    When it comes to the upkeep of guards, at least Glom guards cost 25 power per IC month per guard. That means a guard stack of 30 guards would cost 750 power. One stack of 30 for each of the four entrances means 3000 power. Which, I guess, can be a big deal for Mag considering they only have 500 passive power input that I can think of (no villages, no bubbles, no domoths, 500'ish from culture).


    Forests don't have guards at every entrance and somehow manage to survive. I don't think you get what guards are for. They aren't supposed to turn your org into a fortress. You have statues which should be enough
    I don't really have a comment on guards, but statues aren't really any more than an annoyance to people who can cure themselves. It's pretty easy for one person to just come through and demolish a bunch of statues alone with no problems when no one is around in the city to stop them.
  • LothringenLothringen Member Posts: 266 Fabled
    edited November 2012
    @Soraya: Guards, bard songs, statues, etc. are more meant to slow people down and give us the advantage in killing them ourselves. Huge guard clumps aren't economical. Also, the effect of prime raids (while certainly annoying and potentially demoralizing for some people) is almost zero. We'd be spending more resources on guards than we would be saving with their presence if we had stacks on every available entrance.
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  • SorayaSoraya Member Posts: 36 Apprentice
    There's only four entrances..... I see useless stacks sitting in a lot less important places.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    Celina said:
    Ssaliss said:
    When it comes to the upkeep of guards, at least Glom guards cost 25 power per IC month per guard. That means a guard stack of 30 guards would cost 750 power. One stack of 30 for each of the four entrances means 3000 power. Which, I guess, can be a big deal for Mag considering they only have 500 passive power input that I can think of (no villages, no bubbles, no domoths, 500'ish from culture).


    Forests don't have guards at every entrance and somehow manage to survive. I don't think you get what guards are for. They aren't supposed to turn your org into a fortress. You have statues which should be enough
    It was actually more of a response towards "the issue of cost is no longer an excuse for not using them". I merely stated that based on Mag's economics, it actually is a question of cost. They can't afford them in the long run, so they don't use them. Simple as that.

    And I agree that turning your city into a fortress shouldn't be assumed. Not all orgs can afford it, nor should all orgs be able to afford it. Currently, Celest could certainly afford it (not sure how their guards are placed though). Gaudi probably could, since they only have two entrances to guard (except for the Prime, Elemental and Cosmic nexus, which would drive the cost up even further). The rest... not so much.
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  • LothringenLothringen Member Posts: 266 Fabled
    edited November 2012
    Soraya said:
    There's only four entrances..... I see useless stacks sitting in a lot less important places.
    That's 1,500 power a month to save some beggars. Not worth it. We have guards in two places, one of which is the nexus, which is pretty essential. I'd remove the ones in that other place, but there's no point unless that other guild removes theirs too, otherwise they're just asking to be bashed.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 7,023 Transcendent
    If that other guild's guards are bashed, well, their loss?

    At least they won't be replaced afterwards.  Especially if the guild nexus power allotment is driven downwards by the Power Minister.
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  • LothringenLothringen Member Posts: 266 Fabled
    That's true.
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  • AlacardaelAlacardael Member Posts: 197 Capable
    The general rule for proper guard placing is 10 physical guards (monks/warriors), 10 magical guards (guardians/wiccans), and bard guard version 1 (stun) and 2 (pull down to ground). Anything less is going to be bashed easily. Not to say that the above set up is impregnable, but it's at least going to require more than three raiders to successfully bash.


    If it's broken, break it some more.
  • AkyaevinAkyaevin Member Posts: 586 Fabled
    Even stacks of 20 guards can be cleared pretty easily by a handful of demigods. And it's not four entrances to Magnagora: you can't put mobs in the harbor (which bumps it up to 5, to cover each entrance) and you'd have to move the guard clot north of the harbor over so it covers the entrance from the ferry as well.
  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark AustraliaMember Posts: 3,479 Transcendent
    There are guards sitting in the harbour shallows right now...



  • SorayaSoraya Member Posts: 36 Apprentice

    Lavinya said:
    There are guards sitting in the harbour shallows right now...
    I didn't want to be the one to say anything... -shhhh don't tell!- lol
  • AkyaevinAkyaevin Member Posts: 586 Fabled
    edited November 2012
    ... you put a guard stack where there's no statue?

    Oh dear.

    Used to be you couldn't even put them there, but in any case it's not a good idea.
  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark AustraliaMember Posts: 3,479 Transcendent
    Agreed! No idea who put them there. I think they are there as an offering for Draylor to stop by for tea :)



  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,631 Transcendent
    Back then when there were few SD fighters(even casual ones), I proposed a guild rule where it's okay to assign people as Security members just so they could summon guards as needed, I think this will help you when it comes to placing/dismissing guards as needed.
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


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