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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,746 Transcendent
    Lavinya said:
    I feel like Xenthos feels the disagree button is negative and abusive. HE uses it in this manner - like as retaliation after disagreeing with one of his posts.

    I think we're all aware of your feelings on the matter Xenthos, but there seems to be overwhelming disagreement with your sentiments. You may not like the way they were used, but you're definitely in the minority here, and defending the change that seems to be pretty generally disliked (the removal agree/disagree specifically) beyond the first 'I like the change' is just an argument in futility. Sometimes neither side will change their opinion no matter how much you debate it.


    I really dislike that agree and disagree are gone. I'm ok with the heart. I think the LOL is more troll than anything else. Agreeing doesn't necessarily validate the person, and disagreeing also doesn't suggest insult to the person - just the content. 

    Bring back agree and disagree!
    "Overwhelming"?  Not particularly.  I've received messages and notes from people who have been subjected to what's been going on here.
    For example: "I haven't been paying attention to the forums really. It's exhausting sometimes."
    A second: "I'm glad the admin are aware of the issues, and are at least trying to do something about them"
    I'd really like to see people who have drifted away from engagement here come back.  You're missing out when people like Yendor just can't be bothered to put up with the constant drumbeat that some have engaged in (admittedly not everyone is at fault here, but enough are that you've ended up with a pretty one-sided forum conversation).
    "Hey, we've pushed other people out!  Now that they're gone, let's say that we're the clear overwhelming majority to get our way!"  I'd rather have a situation where we grow things rather than continue to shrink them, so.  I still have no objection to ditching the LOL and bringing back the Agree if that's on the table (or even just dropping the LOL itself and leaving Agree gone if that is preferred), but the current situation is a significant improvement over what we had.  And I also have no objection to being the voice for people who a number of you seem to think don't matter because they've grown tired of how this place has conducted itself.  A shakeup was needed.  I'm pretty grateful it happened.
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,977 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:

    "Hey, we've pushed other people out!  Now that they're gone, let's say that we're the clear overwhelming majority to get our way!"  I'd rather have a situation where we grow things rather than continue to shrink them, so.  I still have no objection to ditching the LOL and bringing back the Agree if that's on the table (or even just dropping the LOL itself and leaving Agree gone if that is preferred), but the current situation is a significant improvement over what we had.  And I also have no objection to being the voice for people who a number of you seem to think don't matter because they've grown tired of how this place has conducted itself.  A shakeup was needed.  I'm pretty grateful it happened.
    Wow, that's some fancy spin doctoring there, Xenthos.

    The "other people" weren't pushed out. They stopped engaging. I mean, it's natural right? If you can't take the heat of the entire playerbase calling you out on your BS, I'd leave too. But by leaving, those "other people" only cement their role as the community that rotted Lusternia from the inside out, forcing it to a free-to-play state with all-time low population, while simultaneously creating the most toxic echo chamber the game has probably ever known to keep reassuring themselves that they're doing nothing wrong.

    If those people are okay with that, they're welcome to continue not engaging, I guess.

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  • AydeksaAydeksa Member Posts: 68 Capable
    I'm mainly upset that we don't have the abuse button anymore because 5 of those bad boys hides some really toxic things that spew out of the furious fingers of hot-headed forumists

    Given that admin are notoriously slow on hammering down on abuse on the forums I am not in favour of removing what little players were able to do to at least hide/warn of posts that were abusive
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,746 Transcendent
    Maligorn said:
    Xenthos said:

    "Hey, we've pushed other people out!  Now that they're gone, let's say that we're the clear overwhelming majority to get our way!"  I'd rather have a situation where we grow things rather than continue to shrink them, so.  I still have no objection to ditching the LOL and bringing back the Agree if that's on the table (or even just dropping the LOL itself and leaving Agree gone if that is preferred), but the current situation is a significant improvement over what we had.  And I also have no objection to being the voice for people who a number of you seem to think don't matter because they've grown tired of how this place has conducted itself.  A shakeup was needed.  I'm pretty grateful it happened.
    Wow, that's some fancy spin doctoring there, Xenthos.

    The "other people" weren't pushed out. They stopped engaging. I mean, it's natural right? If you can't take the heat of the entire playerbase calling you out on your BS, I'd leave too. But by leaving, those "other people" only cement their role as the community that rotted Lusternia from the inside out, forcing it to a free-to-play state with all-time low population, while simultaneously creating the most toxic echo chamber the game has probably ever known to keep reassuring themselves that they're doing nothing wrong.

    If those people are okay with that, they're welcome to continue not engaging, I guess.
    Part of the problem is this insistence that you represent the "entire playerbase."  You don't.  Saying that the people who disengage are at fault seems like flawed logic; that would be like me saying that the people who quit Lusternia because they are frustrated are the problem too.  The most "toxic echo chamber this game has ever known" is the Unofficial Lusternian Discord server, where a number of you workshopped what you've taken to the forums.  You're not interested in hearing opposing viewpoints or opinions.  If someone dares say something there, you just reply with "I blame your whole organization, everyone in it, if they're a part of it even if they have never done anything to anyone they still bear the responsibility" (you actually said this).
    The only surprising thing at this point is why Lusternia's administration is still there, tbh.
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,977 Transcendent
    I mean, by your own admission as well, using a blanket statement instead of naming names is somehow more appropriate than the latter.

    The only surprising thing at this point is how you can't make a straight line from Point A (admin are still there) to Point B (because the Discord and the salient opinions therein represent 5/6 of the playerbase).

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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    So wait wait wait, I want to get something straight. A small handful of players stop posting on the forums and we get a full rework to do nothing but have positive reactions and reinforcements. Using Yendor/Snald as an example isn't really strong, considering his posting is rare. Not to mention, the people who have 'stopped engaging' still login and browse the forums. They're either using the LOL reaction or ya know...can see that their currently online on the forums. Either way, hooray for rapid change in the name of positivity!
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,203 Transcendent
    edited April 8
    Just to put it out there, the argument @Xenthos is using now is what other people have saying for months to years on other subjects about the state of the game, one he and others have dismissed using the "they don't go here anymore so they don't matter" argument he is complaining about now.

    The irony burns
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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,203 Transcendent
    Also, just to put the full picture out there.

    The most toxic behaviour I've seen around the "disagree" button is your policing of people hitting it on your own posts @Xenthos.

    Blindly rampaging through someone's recent posts and bashing the disagree button because they hit it once on one of your posts. (I've even seen you hit it on posts you'd already made posts agreeing with)

    How welcome are people meant to feel in the forums if they have to be wary about hitting a button that just says they didn't agree with what you said? Why would people feel comfortable voicing disagreement in a post if that's the reaction they get to clicking a silly little button?
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  • ArixArix Member Posts: 1,373 Mythical
    Just to be clear, if I click the lol button because I find something actually funny will it give negative points or something?
  • KethaeraKethaera Member Posts: 848 Transcendent
    Saran said:
    Also, just to put the full picture out there.

    The most toxic behaviour I've seen around the "disagree" button is your policing of people hitting it on your own posts @Xenthos.

    Blindly rampaging through someone's recent posts and bashing the disagree button because they hit it once on one of your posts. (I've even seen you hit it on posts you'd already made posts agreeing with)

    How welcome are people meant to feel in the forums if they have to be wary about hitting a button that just says they didn't agree with what you said? Why would people feel comfortable voicing disagreement in a post if that's the reaction they get to clicking a silly little button?
    There's also starting private conversations with people over messages, purely to criticize and insult them over clicking a 'disagree' button on a post.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,203 Transcendent
    Arix said:
    Just to be clear, if I click the lol button because I find something actually funny will it give negative points or something?
    I'm assuming not? @Estarra or @Orael should be able to confirm.

    It just might give someone bad feels if you hit it and what they said wasn't meant to be funny?
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  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 470 Expert
    It sounds like the problem with the agree and disagree buttons was projection.
  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 470 Expert
    edited April 8
    Also lost in the discussion: Off-topic flags. Those were very useful, while at minimum Like and Lol are useless because they've both expanded to mean pretty much anything. 
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,203 Transcendent
    I'm translating "Like" as agree, "Heart" as super agree, and "LOL" as disagree unless the post was obviously intended to be funny.
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  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 470 Expert
    edited April 8
    Xenthos said:
    Maligorn said:
    Xenthos said:

    "Hey, we've pushed other people out!  Now that they're gone, let's say that we're the clear overwhelming majority to get our way!"  I'd rather have a situation where we grow things rather than continue to shrink them, so.  I still have no objection to ditching the LOL and bringing back the Agree if that's on the table (or even just dropping the LOL itself and leaving Agree gone if that is preferred), but the current situation is a significant improvement over what we had.  And I also have no objection to being the voice for people who a number of you seem to think don't matter because they've grown tired of how this place has conducted itself.  A shakeup was needed.  I'm pretty grateful it happened.
    Wow, that's some fancy spin doctoring there, Xenthos.

    The "other people" weren't pushed out. They stopped engaging. I mean, it's natural right? If you can't take the heat of the entire playerbase calling you out on your BS, I'd leave too. But by leaving, those "other people" only cement their role as the community that rotted Lusternia from the inside out, forcing it to a free-to-play state with all-time low population, while simultaneously creating the most toxic echo chamber the game has probably ever known to keep reassuring themselves that they're doing nothing wrong.

    If those people are okay with that, they're welcome to continue not engaging, I guess.
    Part of the problem is this insistence that you represent the "entire playerbase."  You don't.  
    If only there were some concrete way we could like... tally up how representative a post is of the playerbase on the forums. Some objective measure of people who... agree... or disagree with things. if oooooonlyyyyyy

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,746 Transcendent
    Saran said:
    Just to put it out there, the argument @Xenthos is using now is what other people have saying for months to years on other subjects about the state of the game, one he and others have dismissed using the "they don't go here anymore so they don't matter" argument he is complaining about now.

    The irony burns
    You missed the part where it was asserted that the people who don't engage in the forums, despite still playing the game, to quote the poster "cement their role as the community that rotted Lusternia from the inside out."  I pointed out that that logic would equally work the other way around.  Somehow, though, it's fair to apply it to one and not the other.  You're specifically stating that people who play the game shouldn't matter in discussions about the game if you push them until they disengage from you.  I simply do not agree; they are still an active part of the game itself, and I would prefer to see them remain so.
    Saran said:
    Also, just to put the full picture out there.

    The most toxic behaviour I've seen around the "disagree" button is your policing of people hitting it on your own posts @Xenthos.

    Blindly rampaging through someone's recent posts and bashing the disagree button because they hit it once on one of your posts. (I've even seen you hit it on posts you'd already made posts agreeing with)

    How welcome are people meant to feel in the forums if they have to be wary about hitting a button that just says they didn't agree with what you said? Why would people feel comfortable voicing disagreement in a post if that's the reaction they get to clicking a silly little button?
    Sounds like it's a good thing it's gone, then.  And you may have mostly been paying attention to me, but it was significantly more prevalent than that.

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  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 470 Expert
    Okay but what is the actual harm involved, even assuming everyone was constantly going around blasting people's posts with automatic disagrees? 

    There are some benefits, people clearly appreciated them, and the harms were...?
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,746 Transcendent
    Arix said:
    Just to be clear, if I click the lol button because I find something actually funny will it give negative points or something?
    Oh, and I missed this: No, the "LOL" button doesn't do anything.
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  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 470 Expert
    Reminder: The "Disagree" button also doesn't do anything. 
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    I never got an answer on my clarification. It was a serious inquiry. Are we seriously make rapid, unannounced changes because unnamed, unverified complaints about their feelings being hurt over Disagree?
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,203 Transcendent
    Enya said:
    Reminder: The "Disagree" button also doesn't do anything. 
    No no, it makes Xenthos feel bad that people disagree with him, unlike people using the LOL button to laugh at his arguments
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This discussion has been closed.