I'm not sure what to do anymore

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  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    I don't think people meandering around Water, EtherSeren, Faethorn, or EtherGlom for ten minutes is a raid.  That's just people wanting something to do.

    I also don't think people should just put their hands up and say screw everything when a raid happens.  I do, however, agree with Thoros - if you hate combat and raiders are annoying you, get up and stretch your IRL legs.  They'll probably be gone when you come back because no one raids for hours on end anymore (and if you say they do, you're freaking kidding yourself).

    I also, also don't think anyone should every tell a newbies not to worry about raiders.  That's poor roleplay.  I don't care how small someone is, if they look at me and say, "What's going on?", "Why are people dying?", or "What can I do to help?", my answer is: "Come, let's see what you can do."  It also gives you a really good opportunity to test out the young ones, see what they're doing right and wrong, and helping them fix it.

    Combat isn't hard.  All the people saying Lusternia combat is so hard or Lusternia combat is so complex is freaking kidding me.  There's not a single class that can kill you if you don't want to be killed.  There's not a single class that can lock you down long enough to kill you unless you want to fight back.

    What makes Lusternia combat truly hard to get into is learning when to run, from whom to run, and what stuff you need to highlight/echo.  The rest kinda just falls into place.
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 631 Gifted
    The  overhaul will turn combat into a casual game, use one skill until max, use kill condition.  Combat is headed for a fast death so far with no sign of change from the admin. 

    This whole topic will be moot soon. Combat will be pointless in groups (many lvl 5 affs will get you killed immediately).  No one solos and that would still be pretty much a spamfest. Raiding has high costs, free defenses, and no real losses. Losing power from demons was one thing, then we made constructs generate huge sums for free. At this point most orgs can ignore all essence if they want and still be fine.  Every org is conquest for a reason, they never pay for guards.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,206 Transcendent
    @Parua: When in doubt, realise two things:

    Your org isn't going to be destroyed if you walk away for a while and play on an alt. 

    IRL, all of these people who are raiding you have been on the losing end as well. Generally speaking, every org has been downtrodden and people always come back.

    There's not a single thing that raiders can destroy that can't be replaced. (ok, that's three things)
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ParuaParua Member Posts: 319 Gifted
    edited December 2013
    I am not complaining about being raided.

    Raiding is a part of the game. I have been playing Lusternia, on and off for nine years. I know how these things go. I played in Glomdoring when we were the punching  bag of the basin. I played in Magnagora during Fain's heyday. I have been in orgs when they were up, and when they were very down. I know these things can be fleeting.

    The difference between Seren currently, and Glomdoring when the drums were being emptied, and Crow was killed, and the Aspects and Avatars being downed on a regular basis is all about spin. Glomdoring are the masters of spin. They can take any bad situation and make it look like it's on purpose, they RP it out like champs. I know, I was there.

    Serenwilde is not doing this, nor does the RP that the org was blessed with really allow for this sort of thing. As the "Last Forest" they are tasked with protecting Nature, and when they fail, they are literally failing the entire world. The fate of the basin rides heavily upon the shoulders of the commune. Nowhere else is there this sense of impending doom, where failure of the org to fulfill its mission means the world would end.  We were given a losing battle to begin with, and it only stings more the worse we do. It's an IC thing, but you can only play out frustration, hurt, and disappointment so many times before it rubs off on you.

    My problem, currently, is the low morale in Serenwilde. Being raided and having nobody to defend is a symptom of our current problem. Look at our guilds leadership. How many of those people are active? Novices come around for a day or two, then leave because there is nobody to help them out, nobody to advance them, nobody to engage with in their guild, that they picked (most of the time) for the RP they were hoping to get from that guild, because it suited their interests. I do my best to help all the novices I'm around for, but I can't play 24 hours a day, and there are questions I can't answer, and there are things I can't do, either because of RP or because of my shortcomings as a player.

    Moondancers and Serenguard right now are the only Seren guild that has 2/3 leadership that logs in regularly, and get novices that stick around. Hartstone has a few active members, but they don't really get novices. Our new players, the lifeblood of the game, are leaving because they are frustrated with the emptiness in their guilds. I don't know if they are rerolling and trying again elsewhere, or if they are giving up on the game entirely because of their failed attempt to join.

    I am not complaining about lack of leadership in Moondancers. We have a GL and a GA that are active, and engaging. We have no Champ, but like hell am I stepping up into a position that I have no business taking on because I can't combat, and the position is literally geared for teaching people how to do that, and I cannot fulfill the expectations of the position.


    Once again, I am not upset about the raids.

    I get hurt and frustrated watching my friends fight futile, one sided battles, and I feel their anger and discouragement when they go up against impossible odds again and again until they decide they don't want to do it anymore, and leave.

    I want to point out that I do not, and will never, discourage anybody from defending. I simply said that I don't feel good encouraging it, because of the consequences that often result, and then the fallout.

    edit: this post is all over the place, and I'm not sure if I'm saying what I really want to say, but I'm tired and frustrated, and I don't feel like fixing it right this second, so have an edit saying that it's not organized or clear the way I'd like it to be.
    A whisper from the trees and a frosty presence tells you, secretly, "But you are strong, little 
    flower, and wise." The voice shifts and expands, becoming more real. "And everything you just said 
    in the ritual made me feel safer. You should, too."
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    Parua said:

    Serenwilde is not doing this, nor does the RP that the org was blessed with really allow for this sort of thing. As the "Last Forest" they are tasked with protecting Nature, and when they fail, they are literally failing the entire world. The fate of the basin rides heavily upon the shoulders of the commune. Nowhere else is there this sense of impending doom, where failure of the org to fulfill its mission means the world would end.  We were given a losing battle to begin with, and it only stings more the worse we do. It's an IC thing, but you can only play out frustration, hurt, and disappointment so many times before it rubs off on you.

    Ah, okay. I think I can see what you're getting at here.

    I think this is pretty synonymous with being "good" in Lusternia. There's a lot more restriction on actions and RP, usually with little to show for it than the RP itself. It doesn't help that the orgs this affects tend to take it to greater extremes with their laws and practices, which is sensible from an IC perspective but a hindrance from a mechanical one.

    I've talked to a few people who have made the switch over recently and would readily accept that this is what's motivating them. They want to finally do the quests they weren't allowed to, be able to bash kephera as well as illithoid, etc.

    Hard to compete with that, especially now that everyone can get access to Divinus if they really want it.


  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Roleplay can be changed. If you say that the only difference between Serenwilde and Glomdoring when they were both at their lowest point is the RP spin that players put on it, then perhaps you should do something to lighten the spin of your org.

    The "Serenwilde's RP is the sucks" line doesn't cut it. You don't have to dwell on the negative aspects of being the "last bastion of the guardians of nature", neither as a player, nor as a character. When you see your friends driving themselves into a corner, tell them to take a break, invite them for an RP session that's not all dark and gloomy about how you guys lost the fight. Plenty of mechanics in game to facilitate that. Herofetes, teaceremonies, performing a play in the theatre, group bashing, even. Point to the Flame of Glinshari being up and say something like, "We may have lost the battle, and have just been raided, but the Flame burns strong! Hoorah!" or some other morale boosting platitude. Platitude as it may be, eventually someone will come along and follow up with it.

    If you're already doing that, fine, just keep on with it, take a break for yourself when you need to, and sit tight. When population upswings occur, when someone else motivated helps give your messages a push as well, momentum will pick up. Boosting the morale of an org doesn't happen overnight either. Talan didn't make Glomdoring successful in three hours. It took her and a lot of other people's constant and unceasing efforts to keep morale up, and when she left office and eventually the org, others picked up the slack and continued on in their own ways.

    You say you're doing a lot already, if that's the case, then nothing's wrong or needs to be changed. If you're already doing your best, then that's all you need to do. If you're starting to get tired and downtrodden yourself, then just take a break.

  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,206 Transcendent
    If you're looking for ways to motivate newbies and retain people in Serenwilde, here's a few ways;

    Teach newbies about the Glinshari Circle, and how if a raid occurs, especially a serious one which might result in avatars being slain, how they should keep bringing in pixies to strengthen the flames. Not only is this the easiest way for newbies (especially those under innocence) to help, it goes to show how even the smallest person can help in a big way.

    Take them to Ethereal during a raid and have them shield. Point out the people raiding, emphasizing those who regularly raid, and explain that the newbies should always beware these people and keep an eye out for them at all times.

    Take the especially combat-interested newbies off somewhere safe and explain some of their skills. Let them vine/headslam/blanknote/grapple you a few times. Do the same to them, and explain what to do if it happens to them.

    Tell them stories about serenwilde; inspire them, explain why you defend your home, what it means to be the last forest. Tell them why Glomdoring is tainted and never got hugs as a child.

    When people aren't raiding, take a few slightly tougher novices hunting for essence. Show them how to convert it, and explain how to bring back a Moon Avatar if one or more gets dropped.

    Show them how to bring in bards and scholars, especially not during a raid. Show them that there are always ways to help the commune flourish.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 1,299 Mythical
    To be perfectly honest, one of my greatest gripes is that it requires 150 hours logged before one can contest - I know of people who have been interested in contesting for a vacant or dormant position, but before they could do so, they effectively need to sit around on that character for hours, filling in time until they meet the criteria - this even applies for cartel trademasters.

    I can kind of understand why the restriction is in place, but perhaps instead of saying "You need to have been awake X time to contest this position", there could be an alternate restriction such as "X position can not be contended within Y days of the last contention" - if someone who is obviously not qualified tries to overthrow someone who is actively filling the role, common sense would say that the guildmates would vote for the person who is doing the job, meanwhile if they are contesting to oust someone just sitting on the role in semi-dormancy, it gives the guild someone who wants to better the guild.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    You could essentially hijack and run an entire org with a group of alts if the voting restrictions were removed. Especially some of the quieter orgs that currently suffer inactivity.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 1,299 Mythical
    Yeah, I see your points.  Would be too easy to abuse.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • JanalonJanalon Member Posts: 66 Capable
    edited December 2013
    There is a Nexus privilege, available to guild protectors only, that creates a "guardian shell". This is a widely underused feature that was intended for guild mates with low player skills and combat experience to participate in defense with a low entry level to combat mechanics. 

    I played with nexus guardians many while back, and seem to have lost all recall of the particulars. It might be worth your while to personally explore the basic features and to turn key your learning to those willing and active newbie defenders. Here are the basic commands. 

    8.6.2 NEXUS GUARDIANS

    Guardians are a special type of non-sentient guard that must be completely
    controlled by a Guild Protector or Guild Security. They can only be summoned on
    non-prime planes (ethereal, elemental, cosmic). They cost 200 power per person
    and will last 100 days. 

    NEXUS COMMANDS
    ==============

    NEXUS GUARDIAN LIST
    - Lists everyone who has called a guardian, the guardians locations (if not
    dismissed), and how many days left before they will decay.

    NEXUS GUARDIAN CREATE
    - Creates a guardian
    - Costs 200 discretionary power.
    - Lasts 100 days unless killed.
    - Can be summoned or dismissed from any non-prime plane.

    NEXUS GUARDIAN BECOME
    - Player goes out of phase.
    - Player can control the guardian with GUARD commands.

    GUARD COMMANDS
    ==============

    GUARD MOVE <dir>
    - Move the guardian in basic directions.
    - May not be moved out off the plane they were summoned.

    GUARD RETURN
    - Returns the guardian to the nexus they were summoned from.

    GUARD LOOK
    - Look through the guardian's eyes.

    GUARD LOOK WHO
    - Look at everyone in the room through the guardian's eyes.

    GUARD TRACK <target>
    - Move the guardian to anyone within its range.

    GUARD ATTACK <target>
    - Basic guardian attack.

    GUARD WEB <target> 
    - Guardian can cast an entanglement spell.
    - Costs 1 power.

    GUARD NULLIFY <target>
    - Guardian can nullify shields.

    GUARD SHIELD
    - Guardian can cast a shield around itself (not others).

    GUARD SAY <text>
    - Guardian can speak.

    GUARD EMOTE <emote>
    - Guardian can emote.

    GUARD CHAT <text>
    - Guardian can chat on the city/commune channel.

    GUARD STATUS
    - See the guardian's basic status and location.

    GUARD DISMISS
    - Dismisses the guardian. You can still BECOME the guardian again without having
    to create another so long as the one-month timer has not expired.

    NOTE: You will see who enters and exits the guardians location, as well as all
    normal conversations.

    NOTE: If the guardian dies, the controller of the guardian will die as well. It
    is imperative to keep track of your guardian's health and try to recall it
    before it dies (or you will die too). Once a guardian dies, you will have tocreate a new one (and thus spend another 200 discretionary power) before you can
    summon another. Remember, it is ALWAYS important to dismiss your guardian if itis not in use. 
    NOTE: Guardians on their own may not be very practical or effective defenders.In other words, guardians are not meant to replace actual player fighters whenit comes to defending against raids, etc. However, in conjunction with playerfighters, they can certainly be an effective and deadly support.
    I never learned the penalty for death as a guardian. Is the idea that you die at the Nexus and thereby suffer in-org penalties (which are negligible). If not, it might be worth the while to further develop the guardian system... particularly negating experience loss for guardian death. After all, this feature was intended for the weakest to participate. 

    The other problem that I see is that the priv is tethered to protector status which some feels puts a "combat-ready PK-me" bullseye target on that individual, negating newbie status. Trust me, I've been PK'ed off-prime with mention that "Hey, you are a guild protectors and therefore free game" as the reason for PK. There should be another way to designate guardian privs IMHO. 
    image
  • RaeriRaeri Member Posts: 133 Master
    The nice part about it is that they draw from the discretionary pool, and you can't afflict them. Bad part is that I could never work out how to heal them back up after they took damage, and they probably take damage from whips nowadays. Might see more use if there was a way to make them healable, or less power cost (for most orgs, it's more efficient to liveforest or something instead of using this, to discourage small raids).

    image
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    edited December 2013
    @Janalon Nexus guardians are buggy and not particularly helpful, especially if you're trying to engage people in the game. 

    @Raeri You can't heal them after they take damage. You also can't really tell how damaged they are easily. You also can't see who enters and exits the room easily (iirc) or most of what's going on in the room.

    @Parua Yeah. That kind of feeling is what's been the big driver behind more recent pushes to revamp Serenwilde RP. For the entire history of the game, Seren has been defined by what it is not, and by an ideal that (by the rules and plot of the game) at its core is basically unwinnable. That isn't to say that it doesn't set a good stage for interesting RP, but it wears thin quickly.  I completely understand what you're talking about, and so do a lot of other Serenwilders... it will just take some time and some admin help to shift that RP to something more positive. Talk with Riluna, myself, or Hiriako IG if you can catch us, and we'll fill you in.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Changing nexus guardians would be a good idea. Plenty of ways to let newbies use them. Level 50 and below. User doesn't die when guardian dies. Buff guardian health. Make them curable via a single command with a cooldown. Make them have a cooldown per summon (a newbie can summon one per hour, if it dies, they can't do anything until time's up). Lower power cost. etc etc.

    Though the main point is still to keep morale up via interactions. Everyone will still be frustrated even if guardians are changed. Changing the core RP of an org will likely take time, and can possibly fail flat. Changing the interpretation of a failure, however, can be more impactful. It's not difficult to write propaganda, even if it's thinly veiled. Enough news posts putting a positive light on losing ladies will eventually improve the atmosphere, if only cosmetically. For oneself, I've always found it useful to distance myself from my character when things get frustrating. Create characters that are personality-wise very different from yourself, that helps. Remember that it's just a game, and that losing is fine. It may not actually be, but just keep telling yourself that, and you won't get so frustrated - in the long term, you'll find yourself being more productive simply because you end up being more positive on yourself.

    There are other factors which affect the frustration newbies and players of a quiet org, but those are out of your hands - like population, other people's motivation, aggression of opponents etc. Just do what you can for yourself.

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