Double Standards regarding relationships?

SakakiSakaki Member Posts: 390 Expert
I realise this may be a bit of a touchy topic, but I feel it is something that should be brought up since it is something that has the potential of being able to impact on someones RL enjoyment of Lusternia.

I have noticed a bit of a discrepancy regarding relationships pertaining to males and females in my time playing Lusternia, particularly pertaining to promiscuity.  There is a couple of female characters I am aware of that have effectively been forced to go rogue and have been made pariahs, being labelled 'whore', 'slut' or even 'pedophile', ignoring the fact that a lusternian year passes in a mere 12 IRL days, plus the fact that there is other people in marriages/engagements/other relationships with equally large gaps in their ages, enough-so that they should be considered cradle-snatchers, but people turn a blind eye to it.

In contrast, males seem to get off scot-free, I know of a couple of males that are rather promiscuous and at least one that has questionable motives, yet they are still welcomed within cities and allowed to go about day-to-day activities without a problem.

Basically my gripes are "Why are females so badly stigmatised for their actions while males seem to face relatively minor repercussions?"  and "Why is the actions of someone within the privacy of their own manse which is not even connected to their home (or ex-home) city, considered city business, as long as it is not breaking any clearly defined city or commune laws?"  As long as they are working to better their home city or commune, what they do in their own manse should be their own business.
(And before anyone says anything, I am male IRL)

For the purposes of this discussion, the people I have mentioned above are to remain anonymous, any "naming and shaming" will be taken up with the administrators.  I want this to be a fair, unbiased discussion.
Kiss of the Enchantress hisses eerily, "Let them fear, and despair."

Comments

  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Yes, the problem with cross-faction interactions in IRE games have always been fairly consistent in the sense that there is always pressure to keep within the "accepted" circles. At best, people turn a blind eye to those who talk to enemies, and worst, people insist that killing or insults are the only acceptable means of communication with an opposing camp's member.

    There's no easy way out beyond to get friends in high places. To take part in such activities requires that you know the risk you are putting your character into. Most people who become City Leaders are understanding enough, but that's not neccesarily true 100% of the time. If you know your Leader will not look favourably on some activities with the enemy, then engaging in such activities are going to always come with a degree of risk.

    There will also always be stigma towards certain specific activities in the bedroom. This is unavoidable - again, you simply have to do your best to only let it be visible to those you know do not mind. I personally don't think it's wrong for people who want to play this game just for those activities (sex-alts, as people call them), but it is understandable that there are people who would prefer not to have such content in their experience.

  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,203 Transcendent
    I'm not sure which females have been forced to "go rogue" or leave their home due to this. I know there's been a few who have been caught sleeping with city enemies or people of generally ill repute, and who end up being hounded and treated badly because of this. I'm pretty sure that there isn't a single person, male or female, who has been kicked out of their home or treated badly because they're in a relationship with someone of a massively different age.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • SakakiSakaki Member Posts: 390 Expert
    My main issue is when people will not give someone a chance to prove they wish to be useful because of PAST deeds they have or might have committed.  People change over time, heck, it is one of the foundations of development, in that a character might drastically change their mindset or personality over time.  It keeps them interesting (in my opinion in any case).  My issue is when people deny someone the ability to redeem themself due to said past deeds, thus preventing them from enjoying Lusternia to its full potential (while they will not lose a guild skill upon being ousted from a guild or city, they can not use the majority of their skills because it specifically requires power from a city or commune nexus.)
    Kiss of the Enchantress hisses eerily, "Let them fear, and despair."
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,868 Transcendent
    edited February 2014
    I've seen a couple of female characters be called out for mudsexing novices, but at the same time I've ever seen (justified) predatory esque monikers used against three (well 3 players, one had several alts notorious for it) males. These were very much pariah'd into the ground, often leaving their org to find somewhere that would hopefully take them, and in the case of one of the aforementioned alts, suicided when he realised he was stuck in rogueville. As you requested on not giving examples here I'd gladly talk about this in person, anecdotal data can never really paint a full picture when it comes to gauging general public attitude.

    As to your second part, that's organisational politics, factionalism and general in character xenophobic attitudes. No one cares so much if it's the first person in your character's bed or the 20th, you're sleeping with the enemy, showing them compassion and hospitality and that just simply won't do. If you lead them in to Black Widow, however, and carve their face off with a rusty blade you'd be applauded for excellent work, and no one would bat an eyelid as to your personal habits.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spotMember Posts: 4,769 Transcendent
    edited February 2014
    I'm still in denial that this happens. Although I did have one really weird 'Adopt me! No? Date me!' incident a long time ago.
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,203 Transcendent
    As a disclaimer, I don't OOCly care why a person plays. If they play just to have mudsex, more power to them. They just need to realise that all choices have consequences, and one consequence of being a constant mudsexer is that people are going to think badly of you, and you aren't going to advance very far.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk Member Posts: 1,660 Transcendent
    I've kicked out a 'promiscuous' woman from d'Murani and Magnagora and have blocked her return ever since.

    It had nothing to do with being promiscuous, the d'Murani have had some very famous promiscuous men and women over the years, but more of the fact of who she was being promiscuous with. My character does have to pretend to RP, regardless of where the act happened.

    If certain people were worried about catering their main's reputation with mudsexing the enemy, then they should've created an alt to do it like everyone else.
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,203 Transcendent
    Sakaki said:

    My main issue is when people will not give someone a chance to prove they wish to be useful because of PAST deeds they have or might have committed.  People change over time, heck, it is one of the foundations of development, in that a character might drastically change their mindset or personality over time.  It keeps them interesting (in my opinion in any case).  My issue is when people deny someone the ability to redeem themself due to said past deeds, thus preventing them from enjoying Lusternia to its full potential (while they will not lose a guild skill upon being ousted from a guild or city, they can not use the majority of their skills because it specifically requires power from a city or commune nexus.)

    I'll be honest, this is something that really requires context. But if a person is known for being easy or promiscuous and is removed from their org for whatever reason, and ends up wanting to return and be a productive citizen, there's quite a few avenues to do so. Power issues or not, there's plenty of ways to hunt and help an org out to show you are trying to get back in their good graces: power input, bards and scholars, helping out in many small ways.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark AustraliaMember Posts: 3,479 Transcendent
    The whole asking for a chance here to prove you have changed is something that needs to be done in character. Most orgs aren't going to welcome someone known as disreputable on the off chance they might be good now. Especially when they have reports that the ONLY thing that person does is...disreputable things. Appearances are everything, discretion is smart. If said person wants in an org bad enough, I'm sure they can find ways to prove they want in. They can collect power without being a citizen, they can be seen to associate with upstanding people, they can try and make individual friends within an organisation. It's really pretty darn rare that a person has 0 chance of being welcomed somewhere, if they're willing to put the effort in.



  • AiyanaAiyana Member Posts: 118 Gifted
    Sakaki said:
    My main issue is when people will not give someone a chance to prove they wish to be useful because of PAST deeds they have or might have committed.  People change over time, heck, it is one of the foundations of development, in that a character might drastically change their mindset or personality over time.  It keeps them interesting (in my opinion in any case).  My issue is when people deny someone the ability to redeem themself due to said past deeds, thus preventing them from enjoying Lusternia to its full potential (while they will not lose a guild skill upon being ousted from a guild or city, they can not use the majority of their skills because it specifically requires power from a city or commune nexus.)
    If you're trying to be a White Knight for the person I think you are, it isn't even worth it, man. Past deeds do get forgotten. The fact that the person slings out slurs at everyone that ever tried to help her and continues the behaviour that she exhibited in the past without regard? That's what gets her eyeballed, and why organizations will not let her in. People do change, yes, but I think the person you are meaning is pulling the wool over your eyes in this case. Sorry, hun.

  • SakakiSakaki Member Posts: 390 Expert
    edited February 2014
    Actually no, it is not for any one person, though it was a contributing factor.  It is something I have noticed over a period of time - I have several alts across a number of organisations, it is something that has irked me for a lengthy time, especially having been roped into a case involving a male perpetrator some time back on one of my alts.
    Lavinya said:
    The whole asking for a chance here to prove you have changed is something that needs to be done in character. Most orgs aren't going to welcome someone known as disreputable on the off chance they might be good now. Especially when they have reports that the ONLY thing that person does is...disreputable things. Appearances are everything, discretion is smart. If said person wants in an org bad enough, I'm sure they can find ways to prove they want in. They can collect power without being a citizen, they can be seen to associate with upstanding people, they can try and make individual friends within an organisation. It's really pretty darn rare that a person has 0 chance of being welcomed somewhere, if they're willing to put the effort in.
    The matter was brought up in-character, but the fact that the door was pretty much slammed in their face until recently, given much persistence, plus some extra assistance, is what caused me to want to bring the matter up.  The fact that the matter has pretty much been resolved in-game pleases me, but it was still something I wanted to get perspectives on.

    Aiyana said:
    Sakaki said:
    My main issue is when people will not give someone a chance to prove they wish to be useful because of PAST deeds they have or might have committed.  People change over time, heck, it is one of the foundations of development, in that a character might drastically change their mindset or personality over time.  It keeps them interesting (in my opinion in any case).  My issue is when people deny someone the ability to redeem themself due to said past deeds, thus preventing them from enjoying Lusternia to its full potential (while they will not lose a guild skill upon being ousted from a guild or city, they can not use the majority of their skills because it specifically requires power from a city or commune nexus.)
    If you're trying to be a White Knight for the person I think you are, it isn't even worth it, man. Past deeds do get forgotten. The fact that the person slings out slurs at everyone that ever tried to help her and continues the behaviour that she exhibited in the past without regard? That's what gets her eyeballed, and why organizations will not let her in. People do change, yes, but I think the person you are meaning is pulling the wool over your eyes in this case. Sorry, hun.

    If it turns out that she has tricked him, then it will be a learning experience for Sakaki, (After all, isn't that one of the key points of RP, to develop your character and learn more about other characters? :)  )  but until he finds out otherwise, he has no reason not to give her the benefit of the doubt since she has given every visible wish to be able to be a productive member of somewhere that she can call home.
    Kiss of the Enchantress hisses eerily, "Let them fear, and despair."
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,203 Transcendent
    There's only own male "perp" I know, and while I don't know if it's the same person you mean, he's pretty invested in his guild and city. He actually has rank and gives the org a reason not to boot him out.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • IslunaIsluna Member Posts: 225 Adept
    Sakaki said:
    My main issue is when people will not give someone a chance to prove they wish to be useful because of PAST deeds they have or might have committed.  People change over time, heck, it is one of the foundations of development, in that a character might drastically change their mindset or personality over time.  It keeps them interesting (in my opinion in any case).  My issue is when people deny someone the ability to redeem themself due to said past deeds, thus preventing them from enjoying Lusternia to its full potential (while they will not lose a guild skill upon being ousted from a guild or city, they can not use the majority of their skills because it specifically requires power from a city or commune nexus.)
    It is very possible as many people have said here to prove you have changed. But sometimes you have to understand there are cases where someone has been given a chance and they have ruined it far to many times. Be it through the contacts they have made in their position or from their incident.
    Synkarin said:
    Here's the thing

    There's nothing wrong with holding people accountable for past actions. To not hold them accountable is stupid. You have to answer for your actions. That being said, a person can prove themselves over time, but they need to prove themselves. Nothing speaks louder than actions, you can't just sit there and whine and demand to be considered different because you have changed. Prove it, go out, help an org, gather essence, gather scholars/bards, give people needed supplies, prove that you are really backing up your claim of 'being a changed person'

    I know plenty of people that have 'changed' and proven it.
    This is a very sound point.

    Currently Playing in: The doctors office. One more needle and I might just lose it again.
  • SakakiSakaki Member Posts: 390 Expert
    Side note regarding people saying about people "sitting there and whining", apparently they had been trying to find a new home, but had the proverbial door slammed in their face, or so I had heard. In any case, with the matter in question that was on my mind, said person has been given an opportunity to prove their worth, so I'm happy in that respect. A number of logical points have indeed been brought up and I thank everyone for their input :-)
    Kiss of the Enchantress hisses eerily, "Let them fear, and despair."
  • ParuaParua Member Posts: 319 Gifted
    edited February 2014
    The person that people are thinking of has made it very clear that they don't want to actually participate or work for redemption, they just want a city to sit in and continue the same behaviour that they've been exhibiting. That's why the door has been "slammed in thier face"

    Now, if they took some time and proved that they wanted otherwise, it may be a different story.
    A whisper from the trees and a frosty presence tells you, secretly, "But you are strong, little 
    flower, and wise." The voice shifts and expands, becoming more real. "And everything you just said 
    in the ritual made me feel safer. You should, too."
  • NimhuireNimhuire Member Posts: 31 Capable
    Sakaki said:
    I have noticed a bit of a discrepancy regarding relationships pertaining to males and females in my time playing Lusternia, particularly pertaining to promiscuity.  There is a couple of female characters I am aware of that have effectively been forced to go rogue and have been made pariahs, being labelled 'whore', 'slut' or even 'pedophile', ignoring the fact that a lusternian year passes in a mere 12 IRL days, plus the fact that there is other people in marriages/engagements/other relationships with equally large gaps in their ages, enough-so that they should be considered cradle-snatchers, but people turn a blind eye to it.
    Reading your post, the last bit of this paragraph surprised me in particular, so I thought I'd take a moment to discuss it, maybe. I know quite a few couples with widely disparate ages, and aside from some mild teasing, absolutely no one has made a big deal about it. The only exception I've possibly seen is when the couple themselves makes a big deal about it, usually in the form of one of them acting like some fantasy version of a prepubescent girl. If two people want to do that in a manse, that's one thing. If they're going to parade it in front of other people's characters that's very different for a number of reasons, not least of which is because the kind of situation being represented is rarely rped with any degree of realism, and can be horribly triggering to another player ooc, who did absolutely nothing to get their character involved in the first place.


    More broadly, rping character development of the kind you describe requires a certain amount of ooc trust. This is trust that some people, having had bad experiences in the past, are not always willing to extend to characters which seem to match a certain profile. Is this fair, no, not really. Ideally we could have our characters react to people icly all the time, and ooc suspicions and motivations would never enter into it. Is it justified? Kind of. Sex is something that players have strong feelings and strong memories attached to, and it's therefore something that can get incredibly personal to the player incredibly quickly, and can make some people incredibly uncomfortable on an ooc level, causing their ic reactions to be influenced as well. That's not really their fault, particularly not when they did nothing to put themselves into a position where their ic/ooc boundaries were going to be compromised, but instead had it essentially shoved into their faces. In my experience (which, of course, is not universal) characters who behave a certain way receive the same treatment, regardless of gender, but disproportionately more female characters act this way than male characters.

    There's also the way that people sometimes rp things that make it very difficult to react icly to. Someone can claim to be a contributing member of society and mislead and rp  as if that's what they are, while the fact remains that they spend very little time in game gathering power, contributing to discussions, helping novices (unless they're trying to lure them back to their manse), and are constantly "naively" sleeping with city enemies. It's like rping an amazing combatant when actually you never show up to defend etherwilde, or assist in domoths. At some point, someone's rp persona stops being believable, and so their character is going to be treated as a liar, even though they're playing their character as someone truthful.

    To give an extreme example of people rping in a manner inconsistent with their actions: In a non-IRE mud, I once witnessed fallout between one character accusing another icly of rape over a private mudsex scene that one player had interpreted to be icly consensual and the other player had interpreted as ic date rape. One person was rping as the unjustly accused, one person was rping as the disbelieved victim. Both insisted oocly that their character was the one wronged. The mess this turned into, has, unfortunately, given me a very extreme wariness about the motivations and ability to separate ic and ooc of people who get ic reputations for being promiscuous. Other experiences have only reinforced my tendency to distrust the level of ic of someone causing mudsex related drama, including alts that seem primarily designed to "discredit" a particular organisation. And I disagree that cities need laws explicitly detailing what level of association with enemies or people from enemy nations is okay, and what isn't, because there should be some degree of common sense, and respecting leadership when they tell you that what you are doing is inappropriate. Pretty much all cases I've seen in Lusternia have involved a warning and discussion of how the behaviour is not in line with the community's ideals, goals, what have you. It's also okay if a commune isn't perfectly "fair" in their treatment of someone they view as a traitor. That's an icly valid response to take to finding out that so and so is romantically involved with one of those icky tainted people and has been made corrupted as a result. Many organisations have a very unified view of their ideals (Nothing matters but Glomdoring! For the Collective!) and sleeping, even in your private manse, with someone who is in an org that is the antithesis of your org's ideals? That kind of is that org's business if they find out about it. You're giving pleasure to someone who has either directly or indirectly sought to harm your org's very existence, and by extension someone who is pursuing a course that will ultimately doom the world if it isn't curbed. Why wouldn't leaders who have dedicated themselves to the Wyrd/natural forest/Light/taint react poorly to that?

    TL;DR Reacting to ic situations entirely ic is good, however people inevitably have ooc baggage when it comes to sex that means that a lot of patience, level-headedness, a thick skin ooc, and tact is required when you are instigating a sex related controversy ic. My experience has largely been that people are treated similarly on an ic level regardless of gender, that mudsex does have a stigma, and that I've run into more blatant female sex alts than male sex alts, which may account for the perceived disparity. Finally for people playing characters dedicated to an org's ideal, going to certain extremes with people who oppose that ideal is going to be treated poorly ic, and this is a perfectly valid way for them to play their characters.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess Member Posts: 2,927 Transcendent
    edited February 2014
    I know I've made cradle-robbing comments in the past. Fact is, it's always been aimed at people that I've known for a while and it is always made in jest, and I doubt anyone has had an issue with those remarks. Now, people getting themselves aged down to 12 and THEN looking to enter in a relationship, to me, is a big no-no. While age in Lusternia is definitely just a number, there's no reason for you to actively reduce your age to the point of preteen just to go out and attract certain individuals.

    As far as sleeping with the enemy is concerned... I am one of those people that will tell you not to do it and will be pretty adamant about some form of punishment if it is discovered that you went ahead and did it anyway. Why? Well, Elanorwen is first and foremost a fighter. From personal experience in the past, I've known people to disclose information during pillow talk that is normally not the kind of information they'd share otherwise. Does that mean that everyone does it? Not necessarily. Does that mean that it is a possibility? Yes. Even then, in most cases, what I'd say is... please use some discretion as to who you associate yourself with and what you do with them. It's not like you can't both go into the same manse without needing one to follow the other in... or needing to go at the same time, even. There will be people that will notice and the information will get back to people that will cause trouble.

    As to the strumpet title? Well, again, discretion will save you from such a brand. Still, chances are, if you got caught once, you'll get caught again... so that is when you should probably take a step back and consider what you're doing wrong, or perhaps even ask for advice from someone who might not look too unkindly on such actions as to how to get better at avoiding detection. There exist artifacts that will allow people to spot you even then, and some do make it a point to try and locate individuals engaged in certain acts, but... most cases, they do keep it to themselves. Even then, if you are the kind of person that jumps into the proverbial bed with someone else at the drop of a hat, then the strumpet title is likely also appropriate, fair and square... and there really isn't much arguing the point. Do I limit myself in regards to labeling only women as such? No, not really. If they exhibit that kind of attitude, they will get what's coming their way.

    To make a long post short... if you don't want to be called something, your best course is to avoid the kind of actions that will make it happen. If you persist in engaging in carnal pleasures with everything breathing, then it is likely that the brand you're receiving is spot on. Complaining about it won't change the matter in any fashion.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    Putting the MUD in mudsexing.
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