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Concerns regarding Wakabidrome ticket promotion

KagatoKagato Auckland, New Zealand
edited August 2014 in Common Grounds
It may be that there is nothing to worry about, but I still thought it worth voicing my concerns here.

ANNOUNCE NEWS #2349
Date: 8/2/2014 at 3:47
From: Estarra the Eternal
To : Everyone
Subj: Racetrack Tickets!

You can now purchase Wakabidome racetrack tickets directly on the
website!
http://www.lusternia.com/Credits

Again, you can choose to receive your rewards either in credits or
aethergoop!
Penned by My hand on the 6th of Juliary, in the year 389 CE.


As all of you know by now, as one of the promotions, for every 10 credits purchased, you get one Wakabidrome ticket.  This by and of itself is not the issue.  My concern is the recent announcement (ANNOUNCE 2349) where people can currently buy Wakabidrome tickets directly for USD$1 per ticket.  The fact that this is set up as an actual race event, with odds similar to horse racing, leaves me concerned that this may run afoul of Gambling laws and legislations in certain areas, since people are actually dishing out money for these tickets now, rather than it simply being a free bonus of purchasing credits, with many states/countries having laws requiring people to be over 18/21 depending on the location, before purchasing such gambling products.
Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?

Comments

  • ReylReyl
    I can't imagine it's legally much different to arcade machines that take real money and pay out in tickets/toys? Whether or not it's wholly ethical is another question, but buy the ticket take the ride I guess hehe
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    You should totally contact your local police department and ask them to arrest "Estarra the Eternal", a criminal mastermind who is corrupting our youth and who not only brought humans from the Void, but throws shoes to kill people.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Reyl also has a point. This isn't any different than any other online or phone game where you can pay money for a chance to win imaginary things.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ReylReyl
    In any case, this isn't remotely similar to real horseracing - you can't poison the favourite wakabi. Or leave a wakabi head on anyone's pillow. Or be thrown out of a rain-sodden wakabidrome for drunkenness, sobbing and stumbling on broken high-heels while you futilely try and convince a cab driver to stop for you.
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New Zealand
    edited August 2014
    Tongue-in-cheek answers aside, I brought it up because there is a very fine line that we seem to be gradually crossing.

    Personally I was fine with the tickets being a bonus gift attached to ticket purchases because at least you still had the credits, which are typically the key point of the purchase. With the latest announcement, you are now specifically dishing out RL money with no guarantee of a reward and varying levels of odds.  Regardless of the semantics/technicalities, that qualifies as gambling in my personal opinion.  Certain states have specific laws regarding lotteries/gambling, which is why a lot of sweepstakes/lotteries/things you buy "tickets" in state "Not valid in Rhode Island/etc")

    In the end, I realise that chances are Estarra/Roark/Iron Realms have done their background research to make sure everything is kosher, but each person is entitled to their own personal opinion, mine is that I will be refusing to partake in this promotion myself and I will not be encouraging others to do it.

    EDIT: Reworded my point of view a little.

    Reyl said:
    In any case, this isn't remotely similar to real horseracing - you can't poison the favourite wakabi. Or leave a wakabi head on anyone's pillow. Or be thrown out of a rain-sodden wakabidrome for drunkenness, sobbing and stumbling on broken high-heels while you futilely try and convince a cab driver to stop for you.

    If you really want to draw real-world comparisons, a more apt comparison would be to the video-game poker/slot machine sites (and apps on facebook) where they try to get you to spend RL money to participate.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    To each their own. Imperian hands out random tickets from bashing (no purchase necessary), and one guy won 3k credits earlier today.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New Zealand
    Shaddus said:To each their own. Imperian hands out random tickets from bashing (no purchase necessary), and one guy won 3k credits earlier today.
    And therein lies the entire crux of my issue.  Imperian requires NO PURCHASE.  To participate in Lusternias one, you need to pay $1 per ticket unless you are  getting them included in a credit bundle
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    So you have no issue with the gambling itself, you're taking issue with the fact that you have to pay to play, and you can't get free tickets via bashing?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • KiradaweaKiradawea
    Shaddus. Please don't be daft. The issue has nothing to do with pay to win, but with the complexity of gambling laws. You directly purchase tickets for the purpose of playing a fantasy horse race. This can in the eyes of the law be classified as gambling, meaning that the Wakabidrome falls in under the judicial set of laws that pertain to gambling, and all the rules and regulations that come with that, compared to simply purchasing credits. 

    The laws for fantasy currencies are *far* less strict than the laws of gambling. Why do you think pretty much every gaming company uses a premium currency, rather than the ability to directly purchase an addition to your character?
    Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New Zealand
    edited August 2014
    Kiradawea said:
    Shaddus. Please don't be daft. The issue has nothing to do with pay to win, but with the complexity of gambling laws. You directly purchase tickets for the purpose of playing a fantasy horse race. This can in the eyes of the law be classified as gambling, meaning that the Wakabidrome falls in under the judicial set of laws that pertain to gambling, and all the rules and regulations that come with that, compared to simply purchasing credits. 

    The laws for fantasy currencies are *far* less strict than the laws of gambling. Why do you think pretty much every gaming company uses a premium currency, rather than the ability to directly purchase an addition to your character?
    THIS is the point I have been trying to get across.  By allowing people to purchase tickets with RL money, IRE could technically fall afoul of gambling laws, whereas if they had remained with the status quo, gifting tickets as part of a ticket package, it would have at least remained in that grey area since you are not explicitly parting with RL money for the purpose of taking part in a game of chance.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    No reason to resort to insults.

    If you have an issue with it, by all means report it to the proper authority.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New Zealand
    edited August 2014
    I'm not that petty.  For one thing, I have gotten a lot of enjoyment from Lusternia over the years and see no reason to resort to such things when I can voice concerns and give them a chance to say "We've already looked into this, everything is fine and dandy" or "Oops, we might not have considered the possibility of that."

    As I said in my very first reply in this thread, for all I know, Estarra and Roark could have already looked into this in advance and everything could be absolutely fine, in which case, end of story and my mind would be at ease.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • ReylReyl
    edited August 2014
    in all seriousness let me say that there is a point where "good marketing ideas" overlap with "immoral marketing practises" and while I enjoy this game a lot, IRE as a business has done a few little things here and there that made me frown. But we KNOW "free to play" is essentially funded by the whales. We also know that letting the whales buy anything that gives them an automatic and significant edge over others is a Bad Thing. So instead, with this and curios etc, in my humble opinion they are dancing close to the line where they're intentionally exploiting ppl's addictive tendencies maybe? I disagree with Kagato only in that I doubt there's any legal basis for an objection - I'm not going to buy tickets, because i listened when my grade 7 maths teacher told me that only people who are bad at maths gamble. But it's not my place to judge, and I don't expect IRE to behave like anything other than the business that they are within the capitalist context that we all perfectly familiar with.

    My little joke was only half a joke - there ARE much worse things in this world than free-to-play gaming that people make money off without ever being punished by a court - like organised crime + horse racing, or selling alcohol to teens, or outsourcing manufacturing to developing countries, or whatever else. I'm glad someone raised their voice, and I'm with you in spirit, but this just isn't a fight worth fighting. 
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I spent 10 dollars on Imperian tickets and ended up with 91 credits. The same amount would have bought me 25 credits off the site.


    Who's bad at math again? ;)
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ReylReyl
    edited August 2014
    that's what they all say

    edit: but yeah well done, you obviously could afford $10 and you got lucky, and you're happy. But as a general rule it'd be pretty silly to claim that just because some ppl win the house doesn't win even bigger right? And I'm sure you're sympathetic to the fact that gambling can and does destroy lives IRL (but those people are obviously betting a lot more than your $10)
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Reyl said:

    that's what they all say


    edit: but yeah well done, you obviously could afford $10 and you got lucky, and you're happy. But as a general rule it'd be pretty silly to claim that just because some ppl win the house doesn't win even bigger right? And I'm sure you're sympathetic to the fact that gambling can and does destroy lives IRL (but those people are obviously betting a lot more than your $10)
    I agree with you, but I'm not going to get into the whole "gambling is a tax on the poor" scenario. At the end of the day, I'm responsible for my own actions, and laws based on the idea that "gambling ruins lives because people can't control themselves" are pretty stupid in and of themselves.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New Zealand
    edited August 2014
    Also, I never said ANYTHING about this being a "fight".  This was simply something that raised a bit of concern on my part, nothing more, nothing less.  Please do not make this out to be more than it actually is.

    I'm also one who frowns heavily upon gambling because my own father took his own life due to bad debt as a result of gambling.  But again, it all comes down to personal opinion.  Some have no problem with it, some like it, some want little to nothing to do with it.  I fall in the latter category.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • SsalissSsaliss
    In my mind, it's all what you get out of gambling. If you're in it to make a profit on it, then odds are you shouldn't gamble (the house always wins, after all). If, however, you're more in it for the experience (adrenaline rush and all that), then gamble away (as long as you can afford it)! Odds are the big gamblers in Vegas aren't in it to win it, but rather to enjoy the ride.
    image
  • ReylReyl
    haha you just reminded me, my teacher's exact wording was "gambling is a tax on people who are bad at maths", which when you put it that way, is far less nasty than the idea of a "tax on the poor". The discussion I don't want to get into is the one where we try and decide whose fault it is if there is an overlap between being poor and being bad at maths, and I just hope that nobody who is both of those things finds themselves spending hundreds of dollars on wakabidrome tickets. 

    For the rest of us who want to throw a little (or a lot) of our petty cash at things we enjoy, yay for us i guess. I'm happy to wait and see what next month's promotion is.

  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Some countries in Europe will actually ban people from entering gaming tournaments with a cash prize, because while the tournament is based on player ability, they consider it gambling and that there's no guarantee it's not fixed.

    They also don't let people enter competitions with a non cash prize element, because again they consider it gambling.


    These rewards however are all physical and in the real world, online currency where you put in money for something virtual, for a chance at something else virtual, where the rewards at no point are outside of the game itself, tend to jump through a loophole in the gambling law system. You're paying to play a game, no different to paying for dungeon passes in ToR, you might get the loot you want, you might not.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
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